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Dem Post Mortem

What an offensive, pretentious, and shitty post above that I completely agree with! I think that democrats need to figure out if we want to be losers who are morally right 100% of the time; or if we want to win elections while compromising a little.
But the Dems weren't winning the economics part of the argument. The people thought the economy sucked. And based on the mid-terms, abortion seemed a very good argument. When was the last time the Democrats underperformed the general election after a good mid-term?

Also, the idea the Democrats aren't compromising... OI! Like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Biden stayed too long. And that messed things up. The conspiracy shit about campaign money and Harris is silly. Harris was the only candidate that had immediate national awareness. It was her or Michelle Obama. There was no one else.

She wasn't the best candidate, but she was a much better candidate than the alternative. Heck, Biden didn't have any charisma and he beat Trump. It came down to inflation. That lost the election and I don't think anyone could have overcome it.
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
 
?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

I hope your accusations aren't aimed at me, but I'll be happy to apologize if needed.
IF you tell us whether you're named after the famous painter or after the fictional L.A. detective.

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Sohy said that voter disengagement was more bad than intentionally signing away our democracy. Not as bad, more bad. Not that I am particularly convinced either way, as I said, I think everyone who votes has a moral responsibility to vote as well as they can, but those are not the same claims.
You are really good at misunderstanding other posters. I've noticed you do this a lot lately. What up with that?

Do you even personally know any Trump supporters? Have you spoken to them and realized how easily they were manipulated by fake sources of news? Sure, I agree it would be better if they didn't vote, but that wasn't my point at all. I was referring to the Dems and Independents who didn't vote because Harris wasn't the perfect candidate for them. They were more responsible for giving us Trump compared to those who drank the Trump Kool-Aide. Have you never even met the type of person who is easily lured into a cult? Why do you think so many Christian extremists supported Trump? They were already members of one nasty cult, so why not be lured into another one? My late mom was an exception. She used to vent to me about her church friends who believed that bullshit about the Dems. She always voted for the Dems because she knew the Repubs were much worse. At least she alwasys voted.

You don't live in an area like I did during the last election where most white people get all of their news from Fox or Newsmax. These include people of all ages, but all of my closest white and black friends happily voted for Harris, but the young neighbor two doors down had a Trump sign in his yard, and so did the nice middle aged woman at the end of the street. The 80 year old woman who I knew from the senior center thought that Trump would protect her SS, while the 60 something year old one told me that Biden was deliberately bringing criminals across the border, and she gets all of her news from Newsmax, while telling me that the NYTimes was fake news. Gee. Where did she get thta idea? Both of the women are very dear people. One takes her dog to visit her black next door neighbor so she's not too lonely since her own dog died. She also volunteered to fill in for me to lead the aerobics class when I had surgery. I can't explain why my neighbor across the street voted for Trump after telling us he hated both candidates, but he's the type of perosn who'd do most anything for a neighbor. He resuced us once when our car broke down, mowed our lawn once without being asked, and fixed the lawnmower when it wouldn't work, as he is a retired mechanic. Maybe the woman in her 80s is a little senile. Then, there's my very close black friend who is exactly the same age as I am who told me that her nephew said he would never vote for a woman because women aren't strong enough emotionally to be president. I have no doubt that the Dems lost a lot of Black and Hispanic young man due to that machismo attitude. Sexism played a big role in the Harris loss. Just ask most any woman who has experienced sexism. My sister and I along with my female friends are disgusted by this but at the same time, we don't think the Dems should run another woman next time. We don't want to lose out to someone like the dispicable JDVance.

That is why I blame the non voting Dems for Trump. They should have known better. The Trump supporters with some exceptions just drank the Kool-Aide. Plus I doubt any of them realized that Trump would be so much more deranged in the second term. Even those of us who knew he wasn't fit to be president didn't expect this level of madness. Did we expect that people lke RFK jr. would be in charge of our healthcare, along with Dr. Oz? A lot of Trump voters now regret their choice as they begin to wake up, and I would imagine that a lot of non voters also regret their decision not to vote because if they had voted, we would not have a psychopath for president.

Now, I better go do something more important than trying to help you understand my perspective, like pet my dog.
 
We need to go after the actual problems, not paint over them.
Sounds politically correct, but it’s just a principle in search of an action. Meanwhile we have real problems that need more than iteration of principles to mitigate their effects.
In other words, more paint!

No. It's not current discrimination, and thus efforts to combat current discrimination can't succeed. Quit looking under the streetlight!
 
They were more responsible for giving us Trump compared to those who drank the Trump Kool-Aide.
This is exactly what I disagree with you about, and now you have repeated it once again in plain English. No, I don't agree, and no, I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent you. You believe an informed crime of inaction is more serious than a misinformed crime of action, and I do not agree. Being deceived by social media is not some magical cop-out that absolves a person of moral accountability for their actions. It simply is not. I do not agree. These are adults and citizens, and social media is not going away no matter how much we might wish it. Ultimately, every citozen must make an informed vote, whatever it takes to get there. If they don't, they deserve to be remembered poorly.
 
This is going through via reconciliation which has no tangency with the filibuster.
It's going through reconciliation, yes, meaning that they don't need to have the filibuster to cause instability.

And both of you are just eating it up.

Enjoy the king your fear of progress put on the throne.
No, enjoy the king your demand for "progress" put on the throne.
Well, people elected the most radically unhinged leader they possibly could, and you claim this is about people being too radical.
Backlash against "progress" that many people felt wasn't progress.

The Big Beautiful Bill is going to pass, and Trump will be made king, and one of the things the Dems are directly responsible for was making sure that Bernie, rather than losing the primary in a fairly played primary battle, lost the primary in an ugly, spiteful, unsportsmanlike shutout that screamed loudly to the entire country that the "big tent" party was full of shit.

That image of doing the right thing for everyone is the democrat's brand, like it or not.

If you make it clear that it's only a "big tent" for some of the people in it and it's more "our way or shut up", well, guess who won't maintain the force they need to actually be a majority?
But many people do not believe that Sanders would be doing the right thing for everyone. I do not like what happened but it was better to have Sanders out as quickly as possible, lest he end up pulling the Democrats farther from the electorate.
 
"Too far left" means something incredibly depressing in political Americanese these days...

To me, too far left simply means a candidate pushing ideas that will win in a safe democratic district, or a very split democratic primary; but won't appeal to the moderates in the swing states. As a result, we lose another election. The far left seems to be focused on politics of justice. They want more rights for trans people, acceptance of DEI, punish corporations because they are mean, end fossil fuels, and etc. I actually support these policies also. But they are losers nationally! Most Americans want a better economy. Period. They want less inflation, more affordable homes, better jobs. None of the justice items lead to a better economy. I think Harris lost in 24 because she couldn't articulate how her policies could help the economy.
No, they focused on what various causes portrayed as being about "justice". Whether the result was actual justice or not wasn't too important.

And of course she couldn't articulate how her policies would help the economy--because the main way the government helps the economy is by not being a roadblock.
 
Well, you took my words out of context. But yes, I am a moderate.
Maybe actually reply in a way that doesn't dodge the actual questions I posed.
The problem is that you're moving the goalposts here.

Do you not believe trans people deserve rights?
I don't think any of the moderates on here disagree over this other than some dispute about the edge cases.

Do you not believe that biased hiring practices need to be addressed?
You need to establish the problem first. Because we have a space littered with very bad data--and when you have a pile of bad data that usually means there is no good data because it's not real.

Do you not want taxes imposed on corporations to guarantee economic stability and mobility?
Note that before it was about punishing them because they were mean. You are making an entirely separate claim here and you need to establish how taxes create either economic stability or economic mobility.

Do you not want to regulate the things destroying the planet and dooming us?
But the stated objective was ending fossil fuel use. But they also don't want nuke. Renewables currently can't cut it. Removing fossil fuels would therefore take out humanity. Provide the replacement first.

If you don't want those things, just be a fucking Republican already.
No. The Republicans are far more wrong than the Democrats. But that doesn't make what you're after right.
 
"Too far left" means something incredibly depressing in political Americanese these days...
"Left" and "Right" are always measured relative to the electorate, not to an arbitrary point.
I'm all too aware. Fsscist rhetoric has become so commonplace that saying something that would have been casually accepted as a truism in 1995 is seen as radical leftism now.

Take an example: When the Homeland Security Act first passed in 2002, the majority of Americans disapproved, and the openly fascist language of the American "homeland" used throughout the bill was openly questioned. But only the most diehard of "radicals" now disapprove of the Department of Homeland Security and its unprecedented powers. DHS is now the third largest Cabinet agency, with a bottomless budget and its own private police force that answers exclusively to the president and exists only to expel immigrants from the "homeland" to overseas prisons that look suspiciously like concentration camps (because of course that is what they are). Agencies have fallen all around it in Musk/Trump's purge, but DHS and ICE remain untouched and untouchable. It's obvious to me that acceptance of DHS was a direct predecessor to acceptance of many later abuses and the reconstruction of the White House as a ruling rather than executive body. But saying that makes me "too far left", and there's no point asking which Democratic politicians support the abolition of DHS. There are none, except for poster-child of the radical left, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. We now no longer remember a time when there was no secret police force defending the spiritual purity of the nation's "homeland", and most Democrats would scoff at the very idea of ending it.
 
Oh yes, right wing politics are so GREAT for the economy.
People bought a lie.
I'm aware. Surrender a few rights and you'll get cheap eggs. Surrender a few rights and you'll get cheap gas. Surrender a few rights and terrorism will be no more. Surrender a few rights and our boys will come home soon.
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
Really?

Medicare For All (#1)
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Green New Deal (#2)
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Universal Child Care (#3)
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Free Higher Education (#4)
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Are you sure it's not you in that echo chamber?

#1

#2

#3

#4
 

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You are the "moderate", and the fact is, this is you saying those policies do not appeal to you.
I cannot answer for Hieronymus, but I will answer for myself.
I am a moderate, and lefty policies do not appeal to me. I think however, that his argument was that these policies do not appeal to the overall electorate, even if they can play well in Democratic primaries and D+[double digits] districts.

They want more rights for trans people
But not you.
Depends on the right demanded. I do not think biological males competing in female sports is at all fair. For example this:

Trans athlete wins 2 girls events at California track and field finals

On the other hand, why do we separate men and women in sports where it does not matter, like chess or skeet shooting?

Also, while I fully agree with calling, say, a trans-woman who transitioned by her chosen name and use female pronouns, that is very different than somebody just deciding that he wants to be called "they" on a whim. I think the latter just want attention or desperately want to belong to the LGBTQABCXYZ scene. I think the latter is especially the case when far left activists invent a "non-binary" identity for themselves. It's not dissimilar to the feminist idea of "political lesbianism" from the 1970s.

"DEI", no, just acceptance of hiring whoever is actually qualified rather than sticking with a narrow candidate pool. Which implies you think "DEI" is more than that, or that you don't want that and want to call it DEI.
Of course it is more. The 'E' stands for 'equity', which is antithetical to the idea of "hiring whoever is actually qualified rather than sticking with a narrow candidate pool". Equity is all about giving preference to certain people to achieve the politically desired "equitable" distribution in result (such as hiring for a position, or admissions to college or medical schools). DEI means that a black would-be medical student with a 505.7 MCAT has the same chance of admission as a white student with 512.4 or an Asian with 514.3. American Indians are the most DEI advantaged, since they only need 502.2. Data from AAMC.

No, we want to tax them because taxes are important for stabilizing the economy and ensuring that people are not taken advantage of by the ones who ARE mean.
Taxes are necessary, but a lot of the taxation rhetoric by the likes of Elizabeth Warren was counterproductive. And it probably helped (along with ketamine abuse) push Elon Musk into Trumpism. Well done!

More, reduce reliance on fossil fuels, *because they kill us and are wrecking the fucking planet*.
Reducing reliance on fossil fuels is good. Fighting any fossil fuel development (such as the Dakota Access Pipeline) or seeking to ban fracking and offshore drilling (as Harris advocated for in 2019) is very different.
The rhetoric against DAPL was very unhinged. "You can't drink oil, keep it in the soil". Well, you can't eat lithium or copper, so keep that in the soil too, and bye bye electric cars, right? Idiots like them do a lot of damage to the environmental movement.
They are the other side of the coin to the idiots who think we should go back to coal.
It's almost like progressives are less focused on "justice" and more focused on stopping doing the things that are going to fucking kill us before they fucking kill us and destabilize our society entirely.
The problem with Fauxgressives is their one-sidedness with regard to supposed "justice" issues - they will yell "Justice for [some hashtag who got himself killed by police] without investigating the case and discovering that, for example, the perp was armed and has shot somebody. They will be against Israel no matter how much violence Palestinians commit.
On environment, they ignore that transitioning the entire US economy away from fossil fuels will take decades, and that in meantime we need oil and gas drilling, and we need pipelines. We cannot just "keep it in the soil". And they ignore that it must be a worldwide effort, that China - the biggest user of coal and biggest CO2 emitter by far - must be taken to task too.
If it's "moderates" that don't want that, we might as well call them what they really are: doomer Republicans in blue
What?
 
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Really?

Medicare For All (#1)

Green New Deal (#2)

Universal Child Care (#3)

Free Higher Education (#4)

Are you sure it's not you in that echo chamber?

Polls like that are very sensitive to how the question is asked, and because of that also on who is asking the question. It is no surprise that #2 was done by "Data for Progress", a left-wing outfit.
It is not surprising that when people are asked about some benefit in isolation that they would be inclined to support it. But of course, TANSTAAFL. Things cost money.

Take free college education. Some countries, like Germany, have free university education, but that also means that access to university is regulated. It's not like here where pretty much anybody can go to college, no matter how poorly they did in high school and even if they have to take "remedial classes".

Every one of these things, be it "Medicare 4 All", "free" college, or universal child care, has advantages and disadvantages. If a poll only presses the former, it is not very honest, is it?
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
Yeah, I meant "support" as in "government should spend the money to do it".
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
Really?

Medicare For All (#1)
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Green New Deal (#2)
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Universal Child Care (#3)
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Free Higher Education (#4)
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Are you sure it's not you in that echo chamber?

#1

#2

#3

#4
Where do you see overwhelming support in your data?? I see overwhelming support for some of those policies amongst some groups, none of that looks overwhelming across the electorate.
 
They were more responsible for giving us Trump compared to those who drank the Trump Kool-Aide.
This is exactly what I disagree with you about, and now you have repeated it once again in plain English. No, I don't agree, and no, I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent you. You believe an informed crime of inaction is more serious than a misinformed crime of action, and I do not agree. Being deceived by social media is not some magical cop-out that absolves a person of moral accountability for their actions. It simply is not. I do not agree. These are adults and citizens, and social media is not going away no matter how much we might wish it. Ultimately, every citozen must make an informed vote, whatever it takes to get there. If they don't, they deserve to be remembered poorly.
Ok, we can disagree, but you never answered the question regarding meeting any Trump voters and realizing they were victims of a cult. Maybe if you had met and talked to some of these people personally and even tried to reason with them, you would understand things better.

My point was that the people who didn't vote knew better while the Trump voters were being manipulated by a man who's only talent was creating a cult, They didn't know or understand the facts. They weren't all capable of making an informed decision. The non voters were smarter and should have voted. Trump manipulated people into believing he would lower grocery prices on day one, protect the border from criminals, end the war in Gaza on day one and other bullshit.

Oh well. It's too late now so I don't know why we are still wasting our time when we should be trying to encourage people to vote and stop watching Newsmax, Fox or reading The Daily Mail.
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
Yeah, I meant "support" as in "government should spend the money to do it".
But they do support the idea of the programs, which is what Ziprhead was indicating. The people have been conditioned to think all of this stuff can be had for nothing.
 
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