Dem Post Mortem

[Elixir]

She was given an opportunity to have principles and demonstrated that she didn't however much she wished to claim she did.

That's what loses elections in this modern climate.

WUT?
If principles won elections and a lack of them lost elections, we wouldn’t have the current felonious rapist and his crime family running the country.

 

[Jarhyn]

She was given an opportunity to have principles and demonstrated that she didn't however much she wished to claim she did.

That's what loses elections in this modern climate.

WUT?
If principles won elections and a lack of them lost elections, we wouldn’t have the current felonious rapist and his crime family running the country.

Failures of principles lose elections for Democrats.

It's not a problem for Republicans because we all know voters for Republicans have no principles.

This should have been clear from context.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Oh yes, right wing politics are so GREAT for the economy.

?? And who is saying that? TACO Trump's policies are probably putting the country into a recession right now.

Anyone who voted for Trump because Harris is "too extreme".

How about the people who stayed home or voted 3rd party because Harris was not extreme enough?
Or, ya know, like the "Palestinians for Trump" group?
Tom

They probably did not think that Kamala Harris was too far left.

Who is "they" in that post?

I believe that both Hillary and Kamala lost because they were not sufficiently extremist to bring out the Democratic voters.

MAGAts came out in droves because our political system is now dominated by extremists and they put Trump into the White House twice now.
Tom

I think that she lost due to base not coming out and the swing state biden voters switching to Trump. If she had gone more left, perhaps the left would have turned out greater turnout. We'll never know. And she might have won the popular vote. But how many of those voters are in the midwest? If the dems want to return to power, we need to recapture the moderates who switched their vote to Trump. We can't win without capturing at least a couple of the swing states.

If they switched their votes to Trump, then they were never moderates in the first place. Moderates don't vote for extremists, even if unsatisfied with "their own" candidate. We saw this in recent federal election in Australia, where "moderates" turned away from the Liberals, because their leader Peter Dutton was Trump-lite.
Another myth is that the Democrats are a left-wing party; by international standards they are centre-right, and any claim that "oh but in America ..." is exceptionalist bullshit. Americans need to become more self-aware about reality, but decades of agitprop by their mainstream media has distorted Americans perceptions.

This has always seemed like such an odd argument. I can't describe an American politician as left wing because that is not the "international standard". How does that matter? A foreign politician can't run in America. Harris is left of Trump. Harris is probably left of a majority of Americans (who can vote for her). But she's right of some people who live in Luxemburg. How is that helpful? Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right. Some eastern European countries are further to the right than their Western European counterparts. So, Harris is right wing compared to the average person in France, but left wing compared to the average person in Poland. Would that description make you happy? Or could we just describe politicians as they are in the political spectrum that they live in? Is it really "exceptionalism bullshit" to describe people as they are in the country where they reside? If you want to educate dumb Americans so that they become more self-aware about their reality, why not just start a new thread and do that?

 

[Jarhyn]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right

Yes, and in some countries the "left" is complicit with fascism. That's not the fault of the people further to the left of them, that's their own goddamn fault. And it's YOUR goddamn fault for not being further left and being exactly the reason we have a fascist government today.

Quit pretending YOU are not part of this problem of being to far right.

You can't really tell me you are PROUD to be part of the slide into casual fascism can you?

 

[Elixir]

She was given an opportunity to have principles and demonstrated that she didn't however much she wished to claim she did.

That's what loses elections in this modern climate.

WUT?
If principles won elections and a lack of them lost elections, we wouldn’t have the current felonious rapist and his crime family running the country.

Failures of principles lose elections for Democrats.

It's not a problem for Republicans because we all know voters for Republicans have no principles.

This should have been clear from context.

I see ONE electorate, and its makeup is very fluid. Even at its most polarized, Dems have no monopoly on principle nor does all scumbaggery belong to Repugs.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right

Yes, and in some countries the "left" is complicit with fascism. That's not the fault of the people further to the left of them, that's their own goddamn fault. And it's YOUR goddamn fault for not being further left and being exactly the reason we have a fascist government today.

Quit pretending YOU are not part of this problem of being to far right.

You can't really tell me you are PROUD to be part of the slide into casual fascism can you?

?? Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump. But because I describe a politician in America as being to the left compared to other Americans, I'm a fascist? Seriously?

 

[Politesse]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right.

True, but less than comforting in the context of a nation that is drifting fascistic. I don't want to be America's next Hungary, thank you very much.

Indeed, I couldn't give a shit about whether my country is "right" or "left" as a general principle. Those terms mean very little in practice, and what they mean specifically changes constantly. "Red state" or "Blue state", even less. However, what someone means when they complain that someone is "too far left" and needs to be brought in line? That is very alarming to me, especially if that person is a ex-cop with relatively conservative views.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read an article about a month ago about reporters who had interviewed about 100 young people who didn't bother to vote. About half of them said they didn't vote because Harris was too far left and about half said they didn't vote because she wasn't far left enough. That is the fucking problem, imo. Too many people expect a perfect candidate that supports all of the same things that they do, so they don't vote. If everyone had voted, I'm quite sure we wouldn't have a mentally ill psychopath running the country into the ground. But, some of you continue to criticize the better candidate because she didn't agree with you on all issues.

I met a charming young Black man a couple of weeks ago who worked in a furniture store. We discussed music and a lot of things, but before I left, I asked him if he ever voted and he told me he had not. So, I gave him a friendly grandmotherly lecture about the importance of voting. i explained to him that he needed to research each candidate and decide which one was better or worse because no candidate is ever going to be exactly what he might want. He told me he was worried about what Trump was doing to the country, so I emphasized again the need for everyone to vote. He told me he would start voting. I hope so because I've dealt with same thing when I was working with a lot of women who were in their 20s and 30s but had never voted. People need to vote for who they perceive as a good candidate or a candidate who will do the least amount of harm, as there will never be a candidate who supports all of things they do.

And, let me add that I personally know quite few people who voted for Trump. Most of them are very nice people, but they were persuaded by watching so called sources of news like Fox or Newsmax that the Dems were purposely letting criminals to come into the country and that Biden was personally responsible for inflation despite inflation being a world wide problem at the time. They believed Trump's bullshit etc. I don't think they cared one way or the other about the social issues. These people were just victims of false information, not usually the brightest bulbs in the box, but they meant no harm. They were just foolish victims of a cult. I just hope most of them realize their mistake and vote in the midterms to take away a lot of the power of the felon.

I blame all the Dems and smarter independents who didn't bother to vote more than i blame the stupid victims of the Trump cult who didn't realize what they were doing when they voted for a psychopathic, narcissistic felon. Ignorance and stupidity can't always be helped but there is no excuse imo, for not voting because you don't like either candidate. Now we have to worry about losing our voting privledge or having it suppressed if we live in the wrong area. But it's more important to bitch about how the US isn't far enough to the left or that Harris wasn't the best candidate on and on and on. What does that accomplish?

 

[Jarhyn]

Not sure if you are paying attention or not, but I voted for Harris. I'm not a republican. Didn't vote for Trump

I am paying attention to you continually sniping at progressive interests as things you apparently don't want, which tells me rather u equivocally that you like the US to be as far right as it is "on the left".

You didn't vote for Trump but you do vote far to the right of where you see the rest of the world.

You want that.

 

[Politesse]

But, some of you continue to criticize the better candidate because she didn't agree with you on all issues.

If we lose our right to criticize, we've lost our democracy.

And it's just bad policy, giving up that voice. Bad governance. No one person is going to be right about everything. They need to hear from their constituents, and frequently, or misrule is inevitable.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right.

True, but less than comforting in the context of a nation that is drifting fascistic. I don't want to be America's next Hungary, thank you very much.

Indeed, I couldn't give a shit about whether my country is "right" or "left" as a general principle. Those terms mean very little in practice, and what they mean specifically changes constantly. "Red state" or "Blue state", even less. However, what someone means when they complain that someone is "too far left" and needs to be brought in line? That is very alarming to me, especially if that person is a ex-cop with relatively conservative views.

Where did I say that a person to my left needs to be brought in line? To the contrary, I’ve said many times in this thread that I want a bigger tent. This thread is about accessing where went wrong. How did Harris lose. And it’s my belief that she lost the moderates who voted for Biden in 2020 because she didn’t stress economic issues. I’m not against the social justice issues. But Trump won because people thought that he wanted to directly help them. We need to get back to that focus.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right.

True, but less than comforting in the context of a nation that is drifting fascistic. I don't want to be America's next Hungary, thank you very much.

Indeed, I couldn't give a shit about whether my country is "right" or "left" as a general principle. Those terms mean very little in practice, and what they mean specifically changes constantly. "Red state" or "Blue state", even less. However, what someone means when they complain that someone is "too far left" and needs to be brought in line? That is very alarming to me, especially if that person is a ex-cop with relatively conservative views.

Where did I say that a person to my left needs to be brought in line? To the contrary, I’ve said many times in this thread that I want a bigger tent. This thread is about accessing where went wrong. How did Harris lose. And it’s my belief that she lost the moderates who voted for Biden in 2020 because she didn’t stress economic issues.

And I'm going to stress that the people were convinced the economy wasn't that good, despite the metrics and she'd been lampooned as being out of touch. She lost, in part, for the same reasons HW Bush did. The general impression of the economy.

I’m not against the social justice issues. But Trump won because people thought that he wanted to directly help them. We need to get back to that focus.

The US Population trusts the GOP with the economy. The last 40 years really implies that the economy is more a function of itself than who is in power, but the people want lower taxes, more jobs, a better economy, and they go to the GOP for that. It doesn't have to make sense, it just is.

 

[Politesse]

I blame all the Dems and smarter independents who didn't bother to vote more than i blame the stupid victims of the Trump cult who didn't realize what they were doing when they voted for a psychopathic, narcissistic felon.

So if I shoot my dog, and my neighbor doesn't jump in front of a bullet, are they the party "really" guilty of canicide, not I, because I was angry and not thinking clearly, whereas they were level-headed? I'm not buying it. Trump voters are adults by definition. Most of them have seen six or seven presidencies come and go. They have a moral responsibility to use their vote responsibly, the same as any other citizen. And they didn't. I don't muvh care whether they "really" hate democracy or not. I presume most of them do not. Autocracy is as unpopular as it ever was... on paper. But if their love of freedom did not prevent them from voting a dictator into office, they have earned every full measure of the historian's scorn, and I will not volunteer to help them make excuses for what they have done. Nor would they ask me to, they're proud of what they've done. To me, there is no excuse for betraying your country's most fundamental values, not just in spite of but especially if you still claim to hold those values yourself.

 

[Politesse]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right.

True, but less than comforting in the context of a nation that is drifting fascistic. I don't want to be America's next Hungary, thank you very much.

Indeed, I couldn't give a shit about whether my country is "right" or "left" as a general principle. Those terms mean very little in practice, and what they mean specifically changes constantly. "Red state" or "Blue state", even less. However, what someone means when they complain that someone is "too far left" and needs to be brought in line? That is very alarming to me, especially if that person is a ex-cop with relatively conservative views.

Where did I say that a person to my left needs to be brought in line? To the contrary, I’ve said many times in this thread that I want a bigger tent. This thread is about accessing where went wrong. How did Harris lose. And it’s my belief that she lost the moderates who voted for Biden in 2020 because she didn’t stress economic issues. I’m not against the social justice issues. But Trump won because people thought that he wanted to directly help them. We need to get back to that focus.

Where did anyone say you said that? If my statement doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. Use your own brain, god gave it to you for a reason.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I blame all the Dems and smarter independents who didn't bother to vote more than i blame the stupid victims of the Trump cult who didn't realize what they were doing when they voted for a psychopathic, narcissistic felon.

So if I shoot my dog, and my neighbor doesn't jump in front of a bullet, are they the party "really" guilty of canicide, not I, because I was angry and not thinking clearly, whereas they were level-headed? I'm not buying it.

Well you shouldn't, it is a shit analogy. I fucking hate analogies in political discussions.

The options were support Trump or support Trump not getting back into power. It was a Hobson's Choice for people that understand what is at risk.

So if your selection in this Hobson's choice was disengagement... that was the wrong option.

You can come up with as many analogies as you want for why having Harris is office was going to displease you so much that you couldn't stomach voting for her, in light of the alternative, but the reality is, we knew what was at risk. And disengagement was about as bad as voting for Trump.

 

[Politesse]

So if your selection in this Hobson's choice was disengagement... that was the wrong option

Of course it was, but that doesn't make supporting Trump directly the right option, let alone a better option. No, even from a purely practical and mathematical matter, nonvoting is not as dangerous as voting for the worse candidate. To say that someone is more wrong to fail to prevent someone else a crime than it is to commit a crime yourself is the most Boomer goddamn thing I've ever heard. Trump voters need to stop asking everyone else to change their diapers for them. If you aren't capable of making a rational, informed choice as to who to vote for - if you are scratching your head in confusion as to whether a bureacrat or a dictator would be better - it's you who should not be voting. I'm sorry, but if you hold your hand over a hot range, you're going to get burned. It would be nice of me to snatch your hand away, but unless you're actually mentally disabled or blind and in my care, like hell is it my sole responsibility to do so. Especially if you are screaming at me for doing so.

And disengagement was about as bad as voting for Trump.

More. Sohy said that voter disengagement was more bad than intentionally signing away our democracy. Not as bad, more bad. Not that I am particularly convinced either way, as I said, I think everyone who votes has a moral responsibility to vote as well as they can, but those are not the same claims.

 

[ImGod]

Based on this thread, the left is retarded and won't win an election unless the economy crashes soon. Nothing can save them from themselves except for a major economic downturn. So I guess there is always hope.

Haris sucked, sucks, whatever. She never won a state when she ran with only dems voting in a primary. She was so bad that dems did not want her at all. The only reason she was running in the last presidential election was to keep the money Biden had raised for the campaign.

The rest of this thread is a lesson on losing elections. Looking inward on failure is impossible for highbrow, think they're the smart ones, condescending liberal pukes. So smart they'll continue to lose at basic game theory. Blame "conservative press", or Putin, or voters ...WTF planet are these people on? Party of crazies. I've watched multiple post mordem discussions and not one blames themselves for losing... everything. House, Senate, Presidency, multiple governorships and state houses.

Here's a fucking clue. It's always about the economy. All the time. Most of the top 10 issues in any poll. You can't say "raise taxes" with a tiny "on the rich" disclaimer, because every struggling person fills out a tax form yearly and no politician has ever lowered taxes on the lower classes ever. They'll see a property tax increase, a sales tax increase, an income tax increase, and blame the party that ran on raising taxes.

You can't glad hand inflation when people buy stuff every day and have budget. You can't run a proven loser like Harris just because she had access to Biden's campaign money. Pick your candidates using elections if you want to preach about democracy.

People want cheap gas, cheap food, lower rent, hope to buy a house, .... no voting block of substance really cares enough about Ukraine or Palestine or whatever non-economy issue to carry a party past the finish line. The largest voting block in the US are independents. People so tired of the two parties they don't want to associate with either. They out number democrats and republicans. Trump won by tapping into their keys issues, the Dems lost by dismissing their concerns and focusing on another round of "orange man bad". They should have learned from the last time that he uses any publicity they give him to his advantage. Do not feed the troll and court independents was a better strategy.



The fact this wasn't a complete EC blowout shows how bad a candidate Trump actually was as a person. Millions more held their noses to vote for the steaming pile of shit Harris than I thought would. God she was a horribly unlikeable and inarticulate candidate with a terrible VP pick. But she couldn't pick the Jew to help win PA, because Palestine or something.

Next up, the Dems will run some geriatric old white dude, an inexperienced gay guy like "mayor Pete", or worse a Harris again. And run a campaign on multiple issues that aren't even in the top 20 concerns of voters, then naval gaze at why they lost again. Losers.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Actually, every country on earth has a different political spectrum of left and right.

True, but less than comforting in the context of a nation that is drifting fascistic. I don't want to be America's next Hungary, thank you very much.

Indeed, I couldn't give a shit about whether my country is "right" or "left" as a general principle. Those terms mean very little in practice, and what they mean specifically changes constantly. "Red state" or "Blue state", even less. However, what someone means when they complain that someone is "too far left" and needs to be brought in line? That is very alarming to me, especially if that person is a ex-cop with relatively conservative views.

Where did I say that a person to my left needs to be brought in line? To the contrary, I’ve said many times in this thread that I want a bigger tent. This thread is about accessing where went wrong. How did Harris lose. And it’s my belief that she lost the moderates who voted for Biden in 2020 because she didn’t stress economic issues. I’m not against the social justice issues. But Trump won because people thought that he wanted to directly help them. We need to get back to that focus.

Where did anyone say you said that? If my statement doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. Use your own brain, god gave it to you for a reason.

My apologies! I assumed that you were talking about me since you directly replied to my post and referenced the Great Harry Bosch (who is an ex-cop).

 

[Harry Bosch]

Based on this thread, the left is retarded and won't win an election unless the economy crashes soon. Nothing can save them from themselves except for a major economic downturn. So I guess there is always hope.

Haris sucked, sucks, whatever. She never won a state when she ran with only dems voting in a primary. She was so bad that dems did not want her at all. The only reason she was running in the last presidential election was to keep the money Biden had raised for the campaign.

The rest of this thread is a lesson on losing elections. Looking inward on failure is impossible for highbrow, think they're the smart ones, condescending liberal pukes. So smart they'll continue to lose at basic game theory. Blame "conservative press", or Putin, or voters ...WTF planet are these people on? Party of crazies. I've watched multiple post mordem discussions and not one blames themselves for losing... everything. House, Senate, Presidency, multiple governorships and state houses.

Here's a fucking clue. It's always about the economy. All the time. Most of the top 10 issues in any poll. You can't say "raise taxes" with a tiny "on the rich" disclaimer, because every struggling person fills out a tax form yearly and no politician has ever lowered taxes on the lower classes ever. They'll see a property tax increase, a sales tax increase, an income tax increase, and blame the party that ran on raising taxes.

You can't glad hand inflation when people buy stuff every day and have budget. You can't run a proven loser like Harris just because she had access to Biden's campaign money. Pick your candidates using elections if you want to preach about democracy.

People want cheap gas, cheap food, lower rent, hope to buy a house, .... no voting block of substance really cares enough about Ukraine or Palestine or whatever non-economy issue to carry a party past the finish line. The largest voting block in the US are independents. People so tired of the two parties they don't want to associate with either. They out number democrats and republicans. Trump won by tapping into their keys issues, the Dems lost by dismissing their concerns and focusing on another round of "orange man bad". They should have learned from the last time that he uses any publicity they give him to his advantage. Do not feed the troll and court independents was a better strategy.

View attachment 50807

The fact this wasn't a complete EC blowout shows how bad a candidate Trump actually was as a person. Millions more held their noses to vote for the steaming pile of shit Harris than I thought would. God she was a horribly unlikeable and inarticulate candidate with a terrible VP pick. But she couldn't pick the Jew to help win PA, because Palestine or something.

Next up, the Dems will run some geriatric old white dude, an inexperienced gay guy like "mayor Pete", or worse a Harris again. And run a campaign on multiple issues that aren't even in the top 20 concerns of voters, then naval gaze at why they lost again. Losers.

What an offensive, pretentious, and shitty post above that I completely agree with! I think that democrats need to figure out if we want to be losers who are morally right 100% of the time; or if we want to win elections while compromising a little.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.

What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.

You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.