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Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

We can just identify him on sight as a rule-breaker, and expect HR or security or the bouncers or whoever to back us up when we complain.
Yes, criminalizing the mere existence of a minority group does make it easier to find and prosecute "criminals" than does requiring proof of a traditional crime first. But is that justice, or just intolerance enforced through state violence?

You're so sure they'll never come after you with the same weapons you gave them to go after your neighbors. After all, you don't think of yourself as a criminal, so why should you be afraid? Only "other people" are like that, and you can spot them on sight. You don't look like a criminal, so what have you to fear?

In answering that question, history is a more reliable teacher than the evening news.
 
It's not criminalising the mere existence of a minority group.

It's expecting men to stay out of women's spaces.

All men, including those that consider themselves women.
 
You are aware, of course, that for humans, at least, sex serves as more than a mere reproductive mechanism.
Meh. Potato, potahto. Sex serves as a reproductive mechanism - that's how it evolved, it's why it exists. We, as well as some other animals, have evolved other characteristics and behaviors that increase our likelihood to copulate and therefore to sexually reproduce successfully. Intercourse is (generally) pleasurable because those who enjoy intercouse have historically had a higher reproductive rate, and have thus passed on more of their copulation-enjoying genes. We have evolved a bonding instinct that is closely tied to the copulation, because it turns out that those how form pair bonds are more successful at raising their offspring to maturity - thus being more successful at continuing their gene lines.

In very, very, very recent history, we've come up with ways to hijack our own drives and to prevent pregnancy. That's great for us right now in a lot of ways... but it also means that a whole lot of gene lines go extinct as a result. Guess whose gene lines are going to be propagated and shape our future evolution?

Sexes in anisogamous species are 100% reproductive mechanisms. They're not always successful, but that's irrelevant.
And that gender and sex do not always align the way you expect or want them to.
I genuinely don't care about gender or gender identity. I do care about sex.
No offense but you do seem to have some pretty messed up ideas about sex.
Meh. You seem to have some "human exceptionalism" ideas about sex. Copulation only exists at all as a mechanism for reproduction, and is entirely dependent on their being two distinct and discrete sexes in our species. Everything else associated with it - pair bonding, pleasure, etc - is an evolved mechanism that increase the likelihood of passing on our genes.

That doesn't mean that I think people should only have sex in order to procreate - quite the contrary given that I don't have kids yet rather enjoy fun-time-with-hubby. It just means that I recognize and understand that all of the fun parts of it evolved as a mechanism for increasing the likelihood of genes being passed on. I don't glamorize them as being something separate from evolutionary pressure, as if it were bestowed by a great sky-daddy to set us apart from the animals ;)
People certainly do copulate an awful lot for it to be reproductive only. And of course, that doesn’t account for same-sex sex. Or post menopausal sex. Or sex after sterilization. Or oral sex, or manual stimulation to orgasm. Or vibrators. Or humans actively seeking birth control, presumably in most cases so that they can have sex without reproducing. Or tons of other non-reproductive sex, which, btw, occurs in other species than humans.

And of course, other species do change sex or their sex is initially determined by environmental factors, not by chromosomes only.

Look, I’m not thrilled with people getting tattoos or servings before they are 18, without parental consent so I get the angst about gender confirmation treatment for minors—both sides! Remember, I knew a young child who very clearly abd unambiguously expressed that they were a boy although their appearance seemed female ( as an adult they transitioned) and there was zero—and I mean zero doubt in my mind that they knew what they were talking about. And this was more than 30 years ago. It definitely changed my beliefs.

At the same time, as a child, most of my interests were not stereotypically ‘girl.’ I was often told ( not by my parents) that boys were better than girls at math and science, despite some pretty obvious evidence to the contrary. For myself, I knew I was female down to my very core and believed that societies assignment of roles and talents and abilities and interest based on gender were messed up. But yes, I’ve worried that some individuals whose interests/abilities are outside the 1950’s world view with respect to gender could be pressured into believing they are something they are not. My head tells me that’s not very likely. I want to trust that everybody is acting in good faith, with the most rigorous testing and evaluations, rigorously interpreted. I don’t think that is 100% the case, but it needs to be
 
Tell us the “components” that make a trans woman’s physical transformation “complete”.
Tell us what you mean woman and physical transformation.
Woman means a female of the human species, usually applied to females who have attained sexual maturity or legal majority, dependent on context. It is also often used to include females human beings of any age.

Physical transformation in this context means surgical and hormonal intervention intended to mimic the visual sex characteristics of the opposite sex. For males, that would imply orchiectomy and penectomy, vaginoplasty, electrolysis or laser hair removal, tracheal shaving, facial feminization surgery, and either estrogen-induced fatty deposits in the breast region or breast implants, among other possible procedures.

What it doesn't mean however, is that a male can actually turn into a real woman in any fashion whatsoever.

FWIW, seanie is being a bit more zealous in hounding laughing dog (pun intended) than I think is useful... but I'm also quite interested in knowing which of those procedures LD thinks is sufficient for a male to be considered "completely transformed". I'm guessing at minimum orchiectomy and penectomy, but I honestly don't know how much LD thinks is enough.
I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
 
You've previously said that, "the organisations with decent legal advice seem to be changing their policies and signs, to provide female only, male only, and gender neutral facilities."

1. How widespread is this change?
2. Do you have any examples of facilities that have undergone this conversion?

If service providers are breaking the law by allowing trans men to use the men's restroom, then does that put pressure on the service provider to deny trans men access to the men's restroom, regardless of whether they offer a gender-neutral alternative?

I know you're asking seanie, but I'm going to play translator here, because I've had a reasonable bit of exposure to the ways in which UK and US differ, as well as some fairly in-depth review of the UKSC decision on this.

First off, let's hit some cultural differences: In the UK, most stores/businesses/etc. (collectively buildings) already have womens, mens, and disabled bathrooms. In the US, most of our buildings have a disabled-accessible stall in every mens and womens room, but that's not standard in UK. Similarly, in the US, we conventionally give disabled people first-call and priority access to disabled stalls if there's a line, but anyone can (and does) use the big stall if there's nobody waiting. In the UK, however, there's a lot of social stigma around non-disabled people using the disabled bathroom, since they're usually stand-alone single-use rooms. They pretty much treat the disabled bathroom the way we treat disabled parking - they're exclusively available to disabled people, and if someone non-disabled uses them they're going to get nasty looks at a minimum.

Another really material difference between the UK and US is that the UK actually HAS codified legal protections for women. They actually have constitutional equality which the US does NOT have. But they also have very clear guidance associated with that equality, that explicitly allows that in some cases, it's both legal and appropriate to limit access to some services or spaces on the basis of sex, because doing so serves a higher goal of either broadening equal participation in society (such as quotas for female positions on some boards or political positions) or becauses it serves as a safeguarding and protective measure that reduces the disparate level of harm that women face as a result of male violence against women. Thus, it's legal to have female-only restrooms, changing rooms, showers, rape shelters, and inpatient accommodations. That's something that the US doesn't have, in large part because women still do not have equal legal status in the US.

Over the past decade or so, some activist organizations (stonewall predominantly) have been 1) lobbying politicians to interpret "sex" in UK law to mean "gender identity" and 2) convincing companies and other organizations that it already means that. They've been responsible for convincing many buildings to assume that womens restrooms/change rooms/showers/shelters are legally accessible by any male who identifies as a woman, on the basis of their self-declaration of their feelings.

The UKSC ruling clarified that in law, "sex" means actual real biological sex. It does NOT mean gender identity, and it does NOT give males who identify as women the right to use women's facilities.

But the ruling also gave explicit consideration to transmen, and recognized that a well-passing transman is likely to cause discomfort and anxiety in a female-specific setting. The ruling allows transmen to use men's facilities when they feel it's more appropriate to do so. Thus a bearded boobless transman can legally use the men's toilet, the men's changing room, etc. They're also legally allowed to use the women's facilities, but they're not prohibited from using the mens if that seems like the most reasonable and responsible thing to do. The ruling also allows that in some circumstances it may be allowable for a transman to be excluded from a women's service, but that it would be pretty limited. I believe the scenario referenced was of a rape survivors group therapy session, where the presence of someone who passes as a man is likely to be a barrier to the other women being able to talk about their experiences openly - but even in that situation, it was presented as a case-by-case situation, where if the other women in the group were okay with the transman being there, it was certainly allowed; if they object it would considered reasonable to direct that transman to a mixed sex or a trans-only support group, both of which are available.
 
Your screed of ad hominem condescension is off the mark and pointless. All it really accomplishes is to make YOU look like a dolt who can't engage at anything more than a fancified grade-school level of discourse.
Well, thank goodness you've avoided being rude, then. :thinking:

Ahem...
For the most part, I'm good with a modified tit-for-tat. I'll put up with a lot of assholery before I give up on being nice. I was nice and civil toward you for years before I finally got fed up enough to stop giving a fuck about your feelings.

I feel no obligation to give you any more leeway or to go out of my way to be nice and polite to you. Why on earth would you expect me to put in effort when you are clearly and consistently unwilling to do? You start being civil toward me, and I am likely to extend the same treatment to you. But until then, I'm sick of trying to be considerate in light of the continued incivility and assholery from you.
 
Yes, criminalizing the mere existence of a minority group does make it easier to find and prosecute "criminals" than does requiring proof of a traditional crime first.
This is just straight up stupid and lazy. Nobody is criminalizing the existence of a minority group. If you're incapable of actually addressing the topic like a grown up, perhaps you might consider a bit of a time-out? Maybe you need a nap and a juice box.
 
You are aware, of course, that for humans, at least, sex serves as more than a mere reproductive mechanism.
Meh. Potato, potahto. Sex serves as a reproductive mechanism - that's how it evolved, it's why it exists. We, as well as some other animals, have evolved other characteristics and behaviors that increase our likelihood to copulate and therefore to sexually reproduce successfully. Intercourse is (generally) pleasurable because those who enjoy intercouse have historically had a higher reproductive rate, and have thus passed on more of their copulation-enjoying genes. We have evolved a bonding instinct that is closely tied to the copulation, because it turns out that those how form pair bonds are more successful at raising their offspring to maturity - thus being more successful at continuing their gene lines.

In very, very, very recent history, we've come up with ways to hijack our own drives and to prevent pregnancy. That's great for us right now in a lot of ways... but it also means that a whole lot of gene lines go extinct as a result. Guess whose gene lines are going to be propagated and shape our future evolution?

Sexes in anisogamous species are 100% reproductive mechanisms. They're not always successful, but that's irrelevant.
And that gender and sex do not always align the way you expect or want them to.
I genuinely don't care about gender or gender identity. I do care about sex.
No offense but you do seem to have some pretty messed up ideas about sex.
Meh. You seem to have some "human exceptionalism" ideas about sex. Copulation only exists at all as a mechanism for reproduction, and is entirely dependent on their being two distinct and discrete sexes in our species. Everything else associated with it - pair bonding, pleasure, etc - is an evolved mechanism that increase the likelihood of passing on our genes.

That doesn't mean that I think people should only have sex in order to procreate - quite the contrary given that I don't have kids yet rather enjoy fun-time-with-hubby. It just means that I recognize and understand that all of the fun parts of it evolved as a mechanism for increasing the likelihood of genes being passed on. I don't glamorize them as being something separate from evolutionary pressure, as if it were bestowed by a great sky-daddy to set us apart from the animals ;)
People certainly do copulate an awful lot for it to be reproductive only. And of course, that doesn’t account for same-sex sex. Or post menopausal sex. Or sex after sterilization. Or oral sex, or manual stimulation to orgasm. Or vibrators. Or humans actively seeking birth control, presumably in most cases so that they can have sex without reproducing. Or tons of other non-reproductive sex, which, btw, occurs in other species than humans.

And of course, other species do change sex or their sex is initially determined by environmental factors, not by chromosomes only.

Look, I’m not thrilled with people getting tattoos or servings before they are 18, without parental consent so I get the angst about gender confirmation treatment for minors—both sides! Remember, I knew a young child who very clearly abd unambiguously expressed that they were a boy although their appearance seemed female ( as an adult they transitioned) and there was zero—and I mean zero doubt in my mind that they knew what they were talking about. And this was more than 30 years ago. It definitely changed my beliefs.

At the same time, as a child, most of my interests were not stereotypically ‘girl.’ I was often told ( not by my parents) that boys were better than girls at math and science, despite some pretty obvious evidence to the contrary. For myself, I knew I was female down to my very core and believed that societies assignment of roles and talents and abilities and interest based on gender were messed up. But yes, I’ve worried that some individuals whose interests/abilities are outside the 1950’s world view with respect to gender could be pressured into believing they are something they are not. My head tells me that’s not very likely. I want to trust that everybody is acting in good faith, with the most rigorous testing and evaluations, rigorously interpreted. I don’t think that is 100% the case, but it needs to be
I swear to imaginary god that sometimes you just don't read at all.

I LITERALLY said that we don't have sex ONLY for procreation, but that the enjoyment of sex that leads to it is itself an evolved thing associated with reproduction.

I also LITERALLY addressed that some species are hermaphroditic. And I've previously LITERALLY said that sex is not defined by chromosomes, and in fact for many species chromosomes are not the primary mechanism for sex determination, but for mammals and birds they are.

Look Toni, I like you, I think you're a very caring and considerate person, but for fuck's sake actually read my posts.
 
Tell us the “components” that make a trans woman’s physical transformation “complete”.
Tell us what you mean woman and physical transformation.
Woman means a female of the human species, usually applied to females who have attained sexual maturity or legal majority, dependent on context. It is also often used to include females human beings of any age.

Physical transformation in this context means surgical and hormonal intervention intended to mimic the visual sex characteristics of the opposite sex. For males, that would imply orchiectomy and penectomy, vaginoplasty, electrolysis or laser hair removal, tracheal shaving, facial feminization surgery, and either estrogen-induced fatty deposits in the breast region or breast implants, among other possible procedures.

What it doesn't mean however, is that a male can actually turn into a real woman in any fashion whatsoever.

FWIW, seanie is being a bit more zealous in hounding laughing dog (pun intended) than I think is useful... but I'm also quite interested in knowing which of those procedures LD thinks is sufficient for a male to be considered "completely transformed". I'm guessing at minimum orchiectomy and penectomy, but I honestly don't know how much LD thinks is enough.
I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
I don't disagree with you, and if there were any actual feasible way to separate the true genuine trans from the rest in a reliable way, I'd hop on board. But I don't think it's possible any more... so pretty much we have to end up with policies based on biological sex across the board, and then leave it up to the occasional case by case quiet exception. I mean, realistically if the fully transitioned person you envision uses female spaces and passes successfully and behaves appropriate, there's a good chance that they won't ever get challenged. That's kind of what passing means - they succeed at "cheating" the rules and mimic the opposite sex well enough to get by without problems.

That's how it used to work. Women didn't change the rules, the rules got changed without our input. Now we end up with entirely male looking males with all their parts attached invading our spaces, having their dicks out in nude spas and showers around women and young girls, and sharing cells with women in prison - and by and large women are NOT okay with that. Where we used to be considerate and accommodating out of courtesy and sympathy, we found our goodwill abused. It's unfortunate, but that's why we're where we are now.

We shouldn't have to have laws about this. But some people are going to exploit goodwill and kindness for their own jollies or for nefarious reasons. So now we can't have nice things.
 
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I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
So by “complete” you meant “a serious attempt”?

Not quite the same thing, are they?

And, as a matter of policy and law, how do we differentiate between those “who are clearly no threat” and those who aren’t?

Are you suggesting that trans women require SRS before being truly considered the gender they identify as?
 
I don't disagree with you, and if there were any actual feasible way to separate the true genuine trans from the rest in a reliable way, I'd hop on board.
I don't think it's even about trans, whatever that means.
It's about identifying threats to women. The general principle, "Males are a threat to women, in a way that women are not a threat to males." is the real point here.

That doesn't mean all of us are, the large majority of us are not. But plenty of us are threats and create a huge problem. I'll repeat myself again, "The majority of men are not pervy and rapey, but the vast majority of pervy rapey people are men."
Tom
 
I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
So by “complete” you meant “a serious attempt”?
No. And, I cannot even fathom how you could come up with such a stupid question from what I wrote.


 
Tell us the “components” that make a trans woman’s physical transformation “complete”.
Tell us what you mean woman and physical transformation.
Woman means a female of the human species, usually applied to females who have attained sexual maturity or legal majority, dependent on context. It is also often used to include females human beings of any age.

Physical transformation in this context means surgical and hormonal intervention intended to mimic the visual sex characteristics of the opposite sex. For males, that would imply orchiectomy and penectomy, vaginoplasty, electrolysis or laser hair removal, tracheal shaving, facial feminization surgery, and either estrogen-induced fatty deposits in the breast region or breast implants, among other possible procedures.

What it doesn't mean however, is that a male can actually turn into a real woman in any fashion whatsoever.

FWIW, seanie is being a bit more zealous in hounding laughing dog (pun intended) than I think is useful... but I'm also quite interested in knowing which of those procedures LD thinks is sufficient for a male to be considered "completely transformed". I'm guessing at minimum orchiectomy and penectomy, but I honestly don't know how much LD thinks is enough.
I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
I don't disagree with you, and if there were any actual feasible way to separate the true genuine trans from the rest in a reliable way, I'd hop on board. But I don't think it's possible any more... so pretty much we have to end up with policies based on biological sex across the board, and then leave it up to the occasional case by case quiet exception. I mean, realistically if the fully transitioned person you envision uses female spaces and passes successfully and behaves appropriate, there's a good chance that they won't ever get challenged. That's kind of what passing means - they succeed at "cheating" the rules and mimic the opposite sex well enough to get by without problems.

That's how it used to work. Women didn't change the rules, the rules got changed without our input. Now we end up with entirely male looking males with all their parts attached invading our spaces, having their dicks out in nude spas and showers around women and young girls, and sharing cells with women in prison - and by and large women are NOT okay with that. Where we used to be considerate and accommodating out of courtesy and sympathy, we found our goodwill abused. It's unfortunate, but that's why we're where we are now.

We should have to have laws about this. But some people are going to exploit goodwill and kindness for their own jollies or for nefarious reasons. So now we can't have nice things.
I think there are ways when one is talking about incarceration because criminals do not have the same expectation or rights of privacy.

As far as restroom facilities, I agree - that is how it is done now.
 
It's about identifying threats to women.
You haven't, though. Scapegoating an entire segment of society for possible future crimes they might commit is not preventing any crimes from occurring. You might as well say that you're preventing drowning by making people "more aware of the threat that water poses, even when in vapor form". Even if we accepted the immorality of a Minority Report solution to this problem, as a practical matter the strategy just won't work.

Show me the evidence that anti-trans legislation has had the overall effect of reducing violence against women, in any state or nation that has advanced it.
 
No. And, I cannot even fathom how you could come up with such a stupid question from what I wrote.
Then why did you say “indicate a seriousness”?

Is that a relevant criteria?

Sufficient surgery and hormone treatment to “indicate a seriousness”?
 
I think for legal purposes, legal experts should take the medical community’s recommendations. I would expect the “ectomies” you mentioned and vagioplasty at the very least. Those indicate a seriousness and they typically (and hopefully) psychological therapy.

My point is that there are transwomen who are clearly no threat and possibly in danger if treated as a male. Those individuals deserve just as much protection and respect as people as “regular” women.
So by “complete” you meant “a serious attempt”?
No. And, I cannot even fathom how you could come up with such a stupid question from what I wrote.


Can you explain what you mean?
Does it mean chromosomes are changed? Male instincts?

I don't remember who brought up the term "complete physical transformation", but it wasn't me because I don't think that is remotely possible.
Tom
 
Three American women are murdered by their partners every day. Every. Single. Day. Not a one of those women was ever been murdered by a teenage trans girl playing soccer on the wrong team. Trying to place the focus on trans girls playing soccer instead of men who rape their partners and teachers and preachers who rape their students and fathers who rape their daughters isn't just doing nothing, it's diverting attention away from where it's most needed. Everyone already knows that calling the police on a domestic violence issue gets you, at best, a squad car two hours later, and no charges filed unless there's blood. And you want the police to have to show up every time a citizen crusader thinks she saw a women in the locker "adjusting her bulge"? Which police are going to respond to all those calls, and what should they be doing instead?

Conservatives will talk to the moon and back about "protecting women", but they're shit at it. Believe me, I know. There are few places in this country where life as a woman is harder than in those states where the anti-LGBT lobby has successfully captured the government.
 
No. And, I cannot even fathom how you could come up with such a stupid question from what I wrote.
Then why did you say “indicate a seriousness”?

Is that a relevant criteria?

Sufficient surgery and hormone treatment to “indicate a seriousness”?
To confuse you.
No.
No.
So is “a complete physical transformation” irrelevant?

Are we back to “ anyone who considers themselves a woman is a woman”?

Where are you drawing your lines?

What are the criteria.
 
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