Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

No, you support collective punishment. No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

There's no collective punishment.
Sorry to break it to you violent Muslim terrorists apologists but the Gazans are suffering because they are being used as human shields. No collective punishment.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

No, you support collective punishment. No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

There's no collective punishment.
Sorry to break it to you violent Muslim terrorists apologists but the Gazans are suffering because they are being used as human shields. No collective punishment.
Tom

Your 2nd sentence is internally inconsistent: Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment. Pointing out your illogica claims has nothing to do with justifying terrorism by Muslims or anyone for that matter, so when you sling such bs, it makes your posts appear more like the ravings of a genocidal anti-Arab bigot than a reasoned defense of of Israel's actions.

 

[TomC]

Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment.

Nope, it's the opposite.
Gazans are not suffering because of collective punishment. I explained why they are suffering.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

 

[laughing dog]

Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment.

Nope, it's the opposite.
Gazans are not suffering because of collective punishment. I explained why they are suffering.
Tom

I showed your explanation proved collective punishment.

 

[TomC]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

Nope.
They are not being punished.
Suffering, yes, but not punished.

Lemme know when you are willing to help get rid of the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. I won't hold my breath.
Tom

 

[bilby]

Israel just launched an unprovoked attack on Iran.

Well, obviously not. But it's not a more absurd statement than the one in the thread title, and for much the same reasons.

I just thought it might make some here cringe just as much as I cringe when I see that absurd and counterfactual word "unprovoked".

No violence in the Middle East has been "unprovoked" since before WWII.

 

[pood]

Nope.
They are not being punished.
Suffering, yes, but not punished.

I am sure that distinction will be very important to the Gaza parents who watch their children starve to death because of the Israeli blockade. I suggest you convey that to them in person.

 

[TomC]

Nope.
They are not being punished.
Suffering, yes, but not punished.

I am sure that distinction will be very important to the Gaza parents who watch their children starve to death because of the Israeli blockade. I suggest you convey that to them in person.

How about you violent Muslim terrorists supporters convey it to them?
Explain to the Gazans who are suffering why it's so important to the Iranians to have human shields, and "Sorry. We're too busy blaming Israel to get you anything."
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

Nope.
They are not being punished.
Suffering, yes, but not punished.

Lemme know when you are willing to help get rid of the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. I won't hold my breath.
Tom

Pretty ironic coming from someone who admits to doing nothing.

 

[Arctish]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

No, you support collective punishment. No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

There's no collective punishment.
Sorry to break it to you violent Muslim terrorists apologists but the Gazans are suffering because they are being used as human shields. No collective punishment.
Tom

No one here is a violent terrorist apologist, so you can knock off the slurs and slander right now.

The Gazans are suffering because of an ongoing war in which war crimes are being committed.

The fact that one party to the conflict committed war crimes does not grant permission to all parties to do the same. If it did, the Iran would be allowed to bomb Israel so thoroughly that over 90% of Israeli housing was damaged or destroyed, Israeli babies would be dying of malnutrition and exposure, hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians would be killed in crowded refugee camps, and nothing would be left of the settlements but smoldering ruins and charred corpses, while people who agree with your interpretations of international law would say the Israelis Who Matter are entirely responsible for the suffering of the Israelis Who (they think) Don't Matter.

 

[DrZoidberg]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

Nope.
They are not being punished.
Suffering, yes, but not punished.

Lemme know when you are willing to help get rid of the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. I won't hold my breath.
Tom

Pretty ironic coming from someone who admits to doing nothing.

Do you think the invasion of Nazi Germany was collective punishment and a horrible crime against humanity?

Your logic will prevent us from ever removing brutal regimes

 

[DrZoidberg]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

Its war. This is what happens. Every war

 

[DrZoidberg]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

No, you support collective punishment. No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

Then why is it so important to you that Israel is prevented from removing them from power?

You've been desperately grasping for straws this entire discussion.

It should make anyone wonder why it's so important to you

 

[bilby]

Do you think the invasion of Nazi Germany was collective punishment and a horrible crime against humanity?

No.

But the bombing of German cities, with a deliberate aim of destroying worker's housing, certainly was.

Bomber Harris wasn't hanged, because his side won, not because he wasn't a war criminal.

And his strategy likely lengthened the war, and cost thousands of allied soldiers their lives, in addition to its being a criminal collective punishment against the German people.

The criminal 'strategic' bombing of Germany was caused partly by a desire for a way to strike back against an inaccessible enemy; And partly by a bizzare doctrine that held that bombing civillians lowered their will to continue the fight - a doctrine that was observably the exact opposite of the truth, and yet which remains a heartfelt belief to many even today.

As anyone who had toured the bombed out homes of Londoners could attest, you really cannot bomb people into submission. What you get from the survivors is defiance.

Crimes against humanity certainly also occurred in the ground war, once the incasion of Europe began; But these were largely localised and small scale crimes by individual company commanders, or at even smaller scales, and some were even prosecuted.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If the west isn't willing to defend western liberal values, then what the fuck are we doing?

 

[bilby]

From your response it appears that you support collective punishment.

From your response it appears that you support violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Please make that make logical sense in some way.

Your opposition to Israel defending itself against it. You keep referring to it as "collective punishment", when it's self defense against violent Muslim terrorists prone to using their own people as human shields. That's very very different.
Tom

Where have I said I oppose Israel defending itself? Collective punishment is not defense.

I don't see collective punishment as a big problem for Gazans. The big problem is violent Muslim terrorists using Gazans as human shields. Which is easy to do because so many Gazans support the violent Muslim terrorists who run Gaza.
Tom

And the ones who don't support Hamas et al? They get punished right along with the terrorists and you don't have a problem with that.

Its war. This is what happens. Every war

Perhaps. But is doesn't imply ought, and certainly doesn't imply must.

Weapons are becoming more precise. We need not be as cruel as we used to be.

And it is to our advantage not to be.

 

[bilby]

No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

Then why is it so important to you that Israel is prevented from removing them from power?

You are assuming a premise not agreed upon: That Israel can remove violent terrorists from power by bombing Gaza.

They can't.

It's the exact opposite - by bombing Gaza, Israel entrenches the power of violent terrorists, and aids their recruitment drives.

Your question should be directed at yourself: Why is it so important to you that Israel be allowed to entrench the power of violent terrorists, by bombing Gaza?

 

[DrZoidberg]

No one here supports violent terrorists of any kind, including Netanyahu, whose violent terrorism you support.

Then why is it so important to you that Israel is prevented from removing them from power?

You are assuming a premise not agreed upon: That Israel can remove violent terrorists from power by bombing Gaza.

They can't.

It's the exact opposite - by bombing Gaza, Israel entrenches the power of violent terrorists, and aids their recruitment drives.

Its not Opposite Tuesday today

Your question should be directed at yourself: Why is it so important to you that Israel be allowed to entrench the power of violent terrorists, by bombing Gaza?

I'm sorry. But that's just stupid.

Here's another theory... people respond to incentives.

What Gaza needs is a responsible government that gives a shit about the Palestinian people and allows their economy to grow and flourish.

What killed the Northern Ireland conflict was a booming Irish IT economy. Not kind gentle words. The moment Irish activists got distracted by PlayStation and Ibiza charters the whole conflict just suddenly died. People have no time for extremism when they're worried about paying the mortgage on their overpriced house. Its the same all over. And also for almost every social problem. What creates violent people is a lack of hope.

And as long as Hamas is in power there is no future for the Gazans. They need a stable government that isn't corrupt.

Israel is right now their only hope. Every other regime in the middle east is a shit show

 

[bilby]

I'm sorry. But that's just stupid.

Really? You think that the idea that being bombed makes people hate those who bomb them is "just stupid"?

What effect do you expect it to have, and why?

How do you explain the failure of the British to capitulate during 1941, or of Germany to capitulate during 1944, within your (no doubt brilliant) unified theory of the effects of being bombed on a target population?

I am all ears.