Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Toni]

No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.

Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.

 

[Emily Lake]

we can protect women from predators

As though that were their real goal! None of these anti-trans folks do anything whatsoever to otherwise help battered, missing, and murdered women, or their families.

This is bullshit in several ways. A lot of the most vocal gender critical people out there are extremely active with respect to male violence against women, we donate to and support domestic violence shelters and rape shelters, we donate to and support rights for middle eastern women, and we regularly advocate to draw attention to the appalling rates of spousal abuse and murder, the volume of women murdered simply for being females, and a plethora of women and child focused safeguarding objectives. I fucking volunteer at a domestic violence shelter, and I'm absolutely fucking fed up with you making malicious and downright evil assumptions and then asserting your cruel imaginings as if they're fact. And since you're so wrapped up in your own propaganda, it's also worth pointing out that a huge number of gender critical women are ALSO extremely supportive of gays and lesbians... in fact for a lot of people, their peak event was the planned parenthood lectures on the cotton ceiling.

 

[Toni]

They don't use those words, but they say it a lot.

No, we don't. And I don't think decent people do use those words.

Essentially, that is exactly what Loren is saying. It’s not an issue for him, therefore it is an inconsequential figment of our imagination that we should get over. Like rape, menstrual cramps, birth control side effects, etc.

 

[Emily Lake]

I certainly do not believe that trans women are a bunch of pervs or are particularly violent or prone to assaulting other people. I know they are more likely to be victims.

Transwomen have higher rates of incarceration for sexual offenses than other males, and both of those are massively higher than the rate of sexual offenses for females.

 

[TomC]

They don't use those words, but they say it a lot.

No, we don't. And I don't think decent people do use those words.

Essentially, that is exactly what Loren is saying. It’s not an issue for him, therefore it is an inconsequential figment of our imagination that we should get over. Like rape, menstrual cramps, birth control side effects, etc.

Not just Loren.
Also all the other people, mostly dudes, who just don't understand why chicks want stuff that the dudes don't care about.
Like a man free place for personal business.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Making up a discreditable motive is all too easy. Here, I'll do it back to you. We all know why you care about this issue. Single-sex bathrooms are awkward for your sister-in-law, because she's mannish-looking so other women keep objecting to her using the women's room. It's distressing to her, and she's family, and you care about her. And distress to one woman you know and care about carries more weight on your scales of cost/benefit analysis than distress to a hundred million women you don't know and don't care about.

Objectively, that's barely discreditable as far as motives go. Tribal and short-sighted, perhaps, but I don't think that even comes close to being a discreditable motive.

The problem is that you're simply not cruel enough and mean enough to really shine it up properly. Try this:

We all know why you care about the issue - you've held for ages that there's no sexism left in the world, and that any discrepancies in outcomes for women are all based on women's choices. You've dismissed statistics related to sexual assault and rape, and have on many occasions implied that many accusations are exaggerated just to get back at men, and that false rape accusations are prevalent enough to be distrustful of any women's claim of having been raped. We all know that your real objective is to remove women from political and public life, and force them back into subservient second-class roles. This is just another bit of your overall campaign - you want to make intimate spaces so dangerous and uncomfortable that women will stop using them, and that this will result in a non-legal reinstitution of the urinary leash. That way men like you can continue to be in charge of everything and women will learn to know their place.

 

[seanie]

No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.

Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.

So are you saying male and female don’t refer to biological sex in this situation?

Was the discussion actually about male and female electrical sockets?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The claim is that it was a rape by a trans person in a women's restroom. But the only evidence of this being the skirt and the article even said it was not thought he was trans. Thus we still stand at zero rapes by female-presenting "males" in women's restrooms.

So sending a male double rapist to a women’s prison is just fine?

Give your head a wobble.

Prison is a different case that I do not know the right answer for.

 

[Emily Lake]

This is a big problem with the sex offender laws. "Exposure". Is that the trench coat crowd, or is it simply having a penis while in a women's space? In our witch hunting over sex offenders we frequently fail to consider the circumstances.

And in the course of this, somehow, you can't make the connection that when you give males the legal right-by-law to get naked in female intimate spaces, then the flashers can do away with their trenchcoats and just say the magic words after slapping on some lipstick. Then it's not a crime anymore, because now those flashers have both the right and the means to flash away with no consequences!

FFS, we've seen this play out in real life. Darren Merager had a well-established history of exposure, and was already a registered sex offender because of it. But he went and changed his license to say "F"... which california conveniently lets anyone do for any reason with no requirements other than waiting in line at the DMV. And because his license says "F", the charges against him for exposing his cock and balls to a whole bunch of non-consenting women and girls at Wi Spa were dropped. Because apparently, he was doing the exact same thing that any other "woman" would do in a spa - because women totally have their dicks out at the spa.

He was a flasher way before he decided to identify as a "woman". But because he said the magic words, he now is legally allowed to flash women without consent. He just has to go to a spa or a shower to do it, that's all. That's a massive win for the flashers and a massive loss for women.

But you don't give a fuck about women and children, so I doubt you'll care. I expect all you'll care about is that this poor man gets his feelings affirmed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, you have no support for your declaration.

I was simply presenting an example that meets your definition (the vast majority of colors can be classified into "red" or "not red") but clearly is continuous, not discrete. You reasoning leads to a contradiction, therefore your reasoning is wrong. Being able to easily classify 99.98% of cases is not evidence that the remaining 0.02% can likewise be classified. And the failures of surgery on the intersexed says that we can't reliably classify those 0.02%.

No, you were diverting into a meaningless point about the spectrum of light.

Because you can't face the reality that sex is binary, is easily classified in the vast majority of cases, and when ambiguous can still be determined.

Your argument is little more that male rapists can be sent to female prisons...

...because light is a spectrum.

It's not even wrong, it's just stupid.

The point is that you said that because most could easily be classified that it must be binary.

I'm presenting a counterexample--something where most can easily be classified, but which unquestionably is a spectrum, not binary.

 

[seanie]

The claim is that it was a rape by a trans person in a women's restroom. But the only evidence of this being the skirt and the article even said it was not thought he was trans. Thus we still stand at zero rapes by female-presenting "males" in women's restrooms.

So sending a male double rapist to a women’s prison is just fine?

Give your head a wobble.

Prison is a different case that I do not know the right answer for.

Why is it a different case?

Give your reasons.

 

[Emily Lake]

Tell us what you mean woman and physical trans formation.

Woman: adult, human, female.

And no, I don’t need to provide a meaning for somebody else’s phrase.

Which is simply kicking the can. Define "female".

And you didn't address the second part at all.

Female: of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs

 

[seanie]

The point is that you said that because most could easily be classified that it must be binary.

I'm presenting a counterexample--something where most can easily be classified, but which unquestionably is a spectrum, not binary.

Yeah, I understood the point you were attempting to make.

But if you’re going to claim that sex exists on a spectrum akin to light, you’re going to have to do a lot more explaining of what you’re measuring on this “sex spectrum”.

That things exist that are on a spectrum, is not enough to establish sex exists on a spectrum.

 

[seanie]

Especially when there is a well defined definition of sex, based on gametes, and is binary, and holds true for a vast array of plants and animals.

It admittedly falls down when we come to male and female electrical sockets.

 

[Toni]

No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.

Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.

So are you saying male and female don’t refer to biological sex in this situation?

Was the discussion actually about male and female electrical sockets?

I'm saying that biological sex is NOT limited to the compliment of X and Y chromosomes an individual possesses.

 

[Politesse]

Also all the other people, mostly dudes, who just don't understand why chicks want stuff that the dudes don't care about.

"Chicks", likewise.

And this meme that anyone who supports trans rights must not care about women is inrellectually and ethically moribund to begin with, no matter how you voice it. Especially since those who voice it primarily target trans women.

 

[Emily Lake]

I hadn't thought about that aspect of it before but I think you're right. Same as the obsession with demonizing strangers when most sexual abuse comes from family or those the family puts in a position of trust.

Not quite true. Most are committed by someone that the victim knows, not by family, nor by someone the family put into a position of trust. Most of them are by acquaintances. The victim knows the person, but that doesn't mean they are close to them.

For child sex abuse, 34% are family members. 7% are strangers and the rest are acquaintances.
For rape of adults, 19.5% are committed by a stranger, 39% by an acquaintance. 33% are by a current or former boy/girlfriend but there's not a breakdown between those groups.

 

[Emily Lake]

Not a single example…

Trans-Identified Male Accused of Voyeurism In Women's Restroom Set To Appear In Court - Reduxx

A trans-identified male is facing charges of voyeurism and tampering with evidence after being caught photographing a woman in the female restroom at a corporate office in Northwest Arkansas. According to police, content retrieved from his electronic devices suggests he “may have a fetish...

reduxx.info

EXCLUSIVE: Trans-Identified Male Coach Used Girls' Locker Room to Undress Multiple Times, Incidents Kept Quiet by Pennsylvania School District - Reduxx

A Gettysburg, Pennsylvania High School is making headlines over the school board’s debate on whether or not to re-hire a trans-identified male coach for the school’s female tennis team. Sasha Yates, born David, has reportedly been subject to complaint after he frequented the girls’ locker rooms...

reduxx.info

UK: Man Who Identified Himself As "Female" Sentenced After Sexually Assaulting Woman In Train Station Bathroom - Reduxx

A male who claimed to identify as a “female” after sexually assaulting a woman in a female lavatory has been jailed for 16 months and made to sign the sex offenders register. On the morning of March 21, 2022, Ian Bullock attacked a woman in the toilets of Birmingham New Street railway station...

reduxx.info

 

[seanie]

I'm saying that biological sex is NOT limited to the compliment of X and Y chromosomes an individual possesses.

What’s the relevance of “a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives” being described as male or female?

Given we’re discussing actual people, and their biological reality?

 

[Emily Lake]

I mean, ideally there'd be no thieves, and we would never need to lock our doors. Ideally there'd be no pedophiles, and we'd be able to let kids take candy from strangers without qualms. Ideally there'd be no cheats and we wouldn't need any regulations or tax audits.

In those cases, what would be the equivalent of what you and your allies are doing to trans people?

Locking our doors, teaching kids not to take candy from babies, and having clear regulations and tax rules to PREVENT harm from occurring. This, excluding MALES from female intimate spaces, services, and sports.

How those males feel about themselves on the inside of their brains, and what style of clothing they wear is irrelevant to my position.

To put it another way, what group should be scapegoated

Nobody is being scapegoated, and it's inane that you suggest so. Male humans remain male, no matter what they wear, and it's not scapegoating anyone to recognize this reality and expect that males use male intimate spaces, services, and sports.

and forced into segregated spaces

Males with special gendery feels aren't being forced into segregated spaces, they're simply being required to use the same single-sex spaces that all of the other males are using.

in order to prevent some crimes they are accused of being more prone to based on dodgy statistics?

Dodgy statistics that males are well over 90% of the perpetrators of sexual offenses, and that the majority of their victims are females. Yep, totally dodgy, totally just made up. Not documented at all.

Hey Poli, you remember when you asserted that those of us who would like to keep males of all sorts out of female spaces didn't care about actual female victims, and insinuated that we don't care about female victims of sexual crimes? You remember that? Because I do. And here you are talking out of the other side of your mouth, pretending like those same victims either don't exist or are just totally blowing it all out of proportion.

Barring racial minorities from the neighborhood so they can't steal anything? Not allowing priests into schools and church nurseries? Preventative tax audits of all white people?

This is stupid, and you're exhibiting stupidity by putting forth this vacuous argument.