• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

So the challenge to you is not to argue for why sex is a spectrum. The challenge is to give a reason to think any of the organisms at intermediate points on that spectrum are still alive. They could have all died in the Precambrian.
We have individuals with varying degrees of intersexedness. And the doctors can't reliably assign them as male or female based on examination. How is that not a spectrum?
This is false.

We have some few individuals with reproductive system ambiguities. But doctors can reliably identify them as male of female once exams more than a cursory visual look are performed.
 
Sorry, but a transwoman who has gone through a complete physical transformation is not the same as a male human in jeans and steel-toed boots.
Yep, all those high schoolers who've had penectomies and orchiectomies and vaginoplasties...

There aren't nearly as many transwomen who've gone through complete sex trait modification surgeries as you seem to think.
A transwoman who has gone through a psychological transformation is not the same as a male human who has not.
What do you think this means? What psychological transformation do you think occurs?
 
In complete seriousness... do you think that my objection to transgender identified men using women's showers is because I have a problem with men wearing skirts?
That is fucking obvious. Non-bigots don't describe trans women as "men wearing skirts". You seem incapable of talking about trans people with even minimal respect.
I get tired of the semantic games, and yes, I get snippy. I am fed up with the word woman having been appropriated by males in a way that makes it damned near impossible for me to talk about my actual real sex without that somehow resulting in it including males. And at the end of the day, no matter how respectful I am, transwomen are men. They remain males of the human species.

Really, I get tired of being called names, being told I'm a hateful bigot, nazi adjacent, etc. while simultaneously being told that actual women are just overreacting when we don't want dicks in our showers.

If I adopt the language that you want to force me to use, I cannot communicate the issue. The orwellian twisting and redefining of words makes it impossible.

So yes, at the end of the day, transwomen are quite often men in skirts. Sometimes they wear dresses, sometimes they wear slacks. But quite often it's skirts.

You seem to think that me referring to them as men in skirts is derogatory. That's on you - I don't care if they wear skirts or ballgowns or three piece suits. I don't care what they wear. I do not require that men wear trousers in order to be let into the man club - I'm not the one forcing regressive social stereotypes on people. I'm perfectly happy to let men wear dresses and skirts and frilly things if it makes them happy.

The fact that YOU think that men in skirts is a problem is entirely on you. All it does is to make it clear that YOU think gender non-conforming men aren't real men.
 
Poli’s ‘argument’ is based on his own observation and what his students have told him. I believe him.
IIRC, Poli's students are adults, in community college, not high school students. Perhaps it's true, perhaps it's their worry. The exact same argument leveled at you and I regarding whether or not our concerns about penis-havers in female intimate spaces are justified and rational applies here.
High school students may have known each other since grade school or may not have done. It’s fairly standard for multiple smaller elementary to feed into larger secondary schools.
Sure... but even if they're feeders (which is common), at least some portion of the students will absolutely know that Jane was John the prior year.
I confess that I had only responded in this thread as someone who has gad to deal with sexual assault and who, as most of us do, knows plenty of other girls and women who have had much worse experiences than I did.

I had forgotten just how awful a very small number of kids can be and how terrible they can make life for any of their targets.

I have always been sincere when I write that everybody deserves to feel—and be! safe, secure and comfortable in the facilities they use. I had not considered that having an all gender option paints targets in the backs of kids who use these facilities.
I understand the argument Poli has made. I challenge whether or not that target is larger or smaller or unchanged. Poli presented the argument as if these high school males did NOT have a target on them when they're invading female spaces, but that a target would come into existence if they use a sex-neutral facility. That relies on the assumption that nobody knows they're actually males in the first place, which I think is a flawed assumption.

Furthermore, the entire concept of having a neutral facility is that ANYONE can use them. They're not "trans only" facilities. The expectation is that most students will continue to use the facilities that are set aside for their sex, that trans students will use the neutral facility if they're not comfortable using the facility set aside for their sex, but also that the occasional really shy person might also use them once in a while too.

I would speculate that transgender identifying male students are already known to be male in most cases. Those male students will face some assholes who oppose them identifying as trans regardless of which facilities they use. While I wish it weren't the case, I acknowledge that there is a baseline level of hostility that exists.

If they use male facilities, they will face that baseline, and might face additional hostility from other males who have deemed them not male enough to use male spaces. This is pretty much the same kind of abuse that gay men faced, where straight men are just dickheads to any dudes they think aren't man enough to be in the man club. I don't know the magnitude of hostility that boys face from other boys for the apparently unforgivable crime of wearing a skirt. But I assume some exists.

If they use female facilities, they will face that baseline, and they will face resentment and fear from a large number of the girls who they've imposed themselves on without consent. And they will probably face even more hostility from the boys in the school who do not support letting boys invade the girl's locker room and bathroom. At a minimum, there will be some girls who are made uncomfortable, and there will be brothers, boyfriends, and friends who wish to defend those girls.

If they use the unisex facility... I think the only hostility that will be faced is the baseline level that unfortunately already exists. That baseline level cannot be addressed by bathroom and locker room usage, it needs to be addressed more holistically.

So at the end of the day, when weighing the options it seems to me that using separate unisex bathrooms and locker rooms has the lowest available level of risk for transgender students. It also has the lowest level of risk for female students.
Sigh. If only high school kids knew as much as they ( or you) think they do, they’d all be getting into Harvard.

Politesse mentioned high school students. There exist high school students who also take college courses. In my state, this is not uncommon.
 
Really, I get tired of being called names, being told I'm a hateful bigot, nazi adjacent, etc. while simultaneously being told that actual women are just overreacting when we don't want dicks in our showers.
Perhaps if you practiced showing respect to others, you would get it in return. I haven't "forced" you to do anything. And no one is "forced" to pretend you aren't acting like a jerk when you intentionally say things you know will offend people, then play the victim when they react as exactly as one would expect. If you want the freedom to say whatever you like, the good news is that you already have it, but that comes with the necessary caveat that others have the exact same privilege.

Orwellian, really! As though the entire government weren't taking your side at present. You could probably have me arrested, if you really wanted to try, but supposedly I'm oppressing you somehow? What am I going to do, throw a hankerchief at the screen?
 
Last edited:
Really, I get tired of being called names, being told I'm a hateful bigot, nazi adjacent, etc. while simultaneously being told that actual women are just overreacting when we don't want dicks in our showers.
Perhaps if you practiced showing respect to others, you would get it in return...

She's shown respect for people over and over and over. She also gets defensive when people repeatedly malign her and purposely misinterpret her posts. I am beginning to think that a few of you here are just getting more and more annoyed that she won't finally capitulate and shut her trap like a good girl.
 
Really, I get tired of being called names, being told I'm a hateful bigot, nazi adjacent, etc. while simultaneously being told that actual women are just overreacting when we don't want dicks in our showers.
Perhaps if you practiced showing respect to others, you would get it in return...

She's shown respect for people over and over and over. She also gets defensive when people repeatedly malign her and purposely misinterpret her posts. I am beginning to think that a few of you here are just getting more and more annoyed that she won't just capitulate and shut her trap like a good girl.
The first thing she ever posted on this forum was a screed just like the ones in this thread, intentionally misnaming and misgendering people and demanding the "right" to shove other people in the closet. When was this supposed "respect" phase? She's certainly never shown me anything other than saloon manners.
 
Well, in the first place, how the heck does the needy relying on generosity instead of on "want, take, have" exclude any sex from any government service?
I can't think of any way that it does.
Didn't think you could. That was the point where you should have conceded you were wrong and ended the post. But you have to do you...

You're seemingly at pains to portray a simple lack of discrimination as sone sort of "generosity".
If you were to take the entire corpus of your posts, put them all in a Cuisinart, and set it on max, apparently because the salad that would come out would not be materially different from the arguments that went in, you infer that the same is the case with other posters' arguments. But it's just projection on your part -- many of the rest of us write posts with logical structure. You need to actually read for content and follow the reasoning if you hope to understand what others are saying to you. No, I am not seemingly at pains to portray a simple lack of discrimination as any sort of "generosity". That never happened. That never seemed to have happened. It's a fantasy on your part -- one you formed by splicing together random fragments from separate chains of reasoning.

It costs you literally nothing, nothing at all, to let some kid use s public bathroom.
That is such a bizarre line of argument. There are any number of policies I've seen you oppose even though they cost you literally nothing. So what's the reasoning? Are you basically making an ad hominem argument, one to the effect of "You don't share my ideology; my ideology teaches that infidels are unprincipled scoundrels; therefore you are motivated by selfishness; therefore an appeal to your selfishness is the way to get through to you."?

FYI, it costs me literally nothing, nothing at all, to let some boy use a public girls' bathroom, but it does impose a cost on the girls who would also like to use that bathroom, and I care about those girls enough to take their interests into account in my cost benefit analysis. Taking other people's interests into account is a decision procedure I recommend you also adopt.

But you're trying to insist that anyone who opposes sex discrimination must be a Marxist out to steal all your money or something, which doesn't follow in the slightest.
No, that never happened -- you're using your Cuisinart reading (in)comprehension algorithm again. I'm contending that anyone who believes justice and equity really are what Toni's cartoon misdefines them as is one of the all too numerous "useful idiots" whom "Marxists out to steal all your money or something" take advantage of to con their way into power. And the thread connecting that contention back to sex discrimination is long and tangled due to the long and tangled history of this wide-ranging thread. It's perfectly possible to favor letting men use the ladies' room without buying all that "removing systemic barriers to equity" drivel -- Loren manages it just fine.

Here, once again, is the context you're determined to ignore:

Yes, humans are selfish. Just like any other social animal is. We prioritize our families above our neighbors, and we prioritize our neighbors above strangers. We seek to provide advantages to our family to ensure their success in the future, even if that means that someone else's family has a tough time of it. And I guarantee that you do this too.

Then a system that is entirely reliant on the "generosity" of the privileged, to the point of giving up the rights we've already won as citizens, is stupid.​

What rights do you think we're giving up in your framing, Poli?

The right not to be excluded from government services on the basis of sex.​

Well, in the first place, how the heck does the needy relying on generosity instead of on "want, take, have" exclude any sex from any government service?​
...​

As you can see, you're the one who connected generosity with sex nondiscrimination, not I.
I apologize for assuming your message was meant to relate to the topic of the thread it was posted in. I should not have presumed.
 
Sorry, but a transwoman who has gone through a complete physical transformation is not the same as a male human in jeans and steel-toed boots.
Yep, all those high schoolers who've had penectomies and orchiectomies and vaginoplasties...

There aren't nearly as many transwomen who've gone through complete sex trait modification surgeries as you seem to think.
The number is not relevant, not even to your dismissive attitude.
Emily Lake said:
What do you think this means? What psychological transformation do you think occurs?
I think any male who makes the psychological transformation would not be a direct threat to women.
 
So the challenge to you is not to argue for why sex is a spectrum. The challenge is to give a reason to think any of the organisms at intermediate points on that spectrum are still alive. They could have all died in the Precambrian.
We have individuals with varying degrees of intersexedness. And the doctors can't reliably assign them as male or female based on examination. How is that not a spectrum?
Hey, I don't have a dog in this fight; I was just pointing why your contention that in biology "most things are a spectrum" doesn't actually support your case. If you want to make the case you should consider the approach I recommended to Poli and seanie. You say you have individuals with varying degrees of intersexedness, so look through your collection and pick out the individual (or the syndrome) you think is the most clearly intersexed, the one whose sex organs are the most ambiguous or closest to half and half. Post a link to a clinical description. Seanie will read the description , and then come back with either, "Yes, I was wrong. That's an actual hermaphrodite." or "No, that's a man because ..." or "No, that's a woman because...". Assuming his answer is one of the "because..."s, the rest of us can read his explanation and judge for ourselves whether it makes sense. Any way it goes down, at least we'll have moved past the endless Monty Python argument clinic.
 
... I'm contending that anyone who believes justice and equity really are what Toni's cartoon misdefines them as is one of the all too numerous "useful idiots" whom "Marxists out to steal all your money or something" take advantage of to con their way into power. And the thread connecting that contention back to sex discrimination is long and tangled due to the long and tangled history of this wide-ranging thread. It's perfectly possible to favor letting men use the ladies' room without buying all that "removing systemic barriers to equity" drivel -- Loren manages it just fine.

Here, once again, is the context you're determined to ignore:
...
As you can see, you're the one who connected generosity with sex nondiscrimination, not I.
I apologize for assuming your message was meant to relate to the topic of the thread it was posted in. I should not have presumed.
Dude, you're the one who started this whole long tangled subthread of the discussion, with your cryptic and prima facie self-contradictory positions on discrimination, so if you've subsequently lost track of how the end connects to the beginning, that's on you. It all goes back to this post:

https://iidb.org/threads/legal-defi...upreme-court-rules.29359/page-97#post-1283863

Seanie asked you to explain how you square your expressed views with each other, and Toni kibitzed with her cartoon, apparently meaning to imply that excluding men from single-sex spaces is a systemic barrier to everyone getting the support they need and justice requires us to remove that barrier to equity. So Loren and I pointed out that her definitions of justice and equity were bogus, and Toni said the short kid getting to stand on the tall kid's crate was equity, and I said it was generosity, and you called that teaching my kids to "hit or be hit, never share", and that's how we got to where we are. So if you need to blame someone for the relation to the topic of the thread having become somewhat indirect by this point, go buy a mirror.
 
I am looking at that post, and still not seeing what the hell you're on about. No matter what way you explain it, Marxism simply does not naturally follow from policies of non-discrimination.
 
The best, or the most plausible? The latter seems like requiring that a single use facility is always available if needed for those who need it. The best would be a cultural shift.

But federal law is not the right instrument to effect either change, in any case. There is no solution that all states and cities would find acceptable as a top-down, firearm-enforced mandate.
You say that as though it's at all possible for federal law not to be the instrument of change. Do you think the ongoing proliferation of all-gender restrooms is happening because business owners as a class are expressing their inner allyship? Do you think they're catering to the preferences of their customer base? They're doing it because they think it minimizes their chances of getting sued. But a court awarding a fat judgment to a plaintiff is every bit as much an act of government as imposing a steep fine. Texas Republicans play-acted at practicing live-and-let-live, pretending the abortion lawsuits they authorized didn't violate Roe-v-Wade because it was supposedly private parties interfering with women's reproductive rights, not the government. Do you really want to imitate Texas Republicans?
 
The best, or the most plausible? The latter seems like requiring that a single use facility is always available if needed for those who need it. The best would be a cultural shift.

But federal law is not the right instrument to effect either change, in any case. There is no solution that all states and cities would find acceptable as a top-down, firearm-enforced mandate.
You say that as though it's at all possible for federal law not to be the instrument of change. Do you think the ongoing proliferation of all-gender restrooms is happening because business owners as a class are expressing their inner allyship? Do you think they're catering to the preferences of their customer base? They're doing it because they think it minimizes their chances of getting sued.
By what federal law is anyone being sued?

What lawsuits are you referring to, in fact?

But a court awarding a fat judgment to a plaintiff is every bit as much an act of government as imposing a steep fine. Texas Republicans play-acted at practicing live-and-let-live, pretending the abortion lawsuits they authorized didn't violate Roe-v-Wade because it was supposedly private parties interfering with women's reproductive rights, not the government. Do you really want to imitate Texas Republicans?
It's not clear to me how these situations are supposed to be equivalent, but I certainly would not point to the abortion debate as an exemplar of the government handling a debate of social policy well. Did the ruling in Roe v Wade, and its subsequent enforcement as a quasi-law that never saw the halls of Congress, in fact resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction? That case waa not the culmination of a culture war, it sparked one.

But I'm also not clear on what federal legal ruling, equivalent in weight to Roe, you think it could violate to either have or not have single-sex bathrooms.
 
Sorry, but a transwoman who has gone through a complete physical transformation is not the same as a male human in jeans and steel-toed boots.
Yep, all those high schoolers who've had penectomies and orchiectomies and vaginoplasties...

There aren't nearly as many transwomen who've gone through complete sex trait modification surgeries as you seem to think.
The number is not relevant, not even to your dismissive attitude.
Emily Lake said:
What do you think this means? What psychological transformation do you think occurs?
I think any male who makes the psychological transformation would not be a direct threat to women.
How do we assess the psychological transformation?

Is a man saying they're a women suffice?
 
Sorry, but a transwoman who has gone through a complete physical transformation is not the same as a male human in jeans and steel-toed boots.
Yep, all those high schoolers who've had penectomies and orchiectomies and vaginoplasties...

There aren't nearly as many transwomen who've gone through complete sex trait modification surgeries as you seem to think.
The number is not relevant, not even to your dismissive attitude.
Emily Lake said:
What do you think this means? What psychological transformation do you think occurs?
I think any male who makes the psychological transformation would not be a direct threat to women.
How do we assess the psychological transformation?

Is a man saying they're a women suffice?
Observation and evaluation.
No.
 
How does that work as a matter of policy and law, when operating single sex services and spaces?
 
If we can have separate spaces and services for men and women, how do operate them?

What is the basis for differentiating, or discriminating, between men and women?

What criteria are to be applied?

You seem to be suggesting that males who “make the psychological change”to being women should be treated as such?

If so, how do we distinguish them from the males who consider themselves women, who haven’t made the “psychological change”?

Because that distinction matters if there are spaces that are segregated by male and female.
 
Back
Top Bottom