The Manhood Trap

[RVonse]

From Epstein’s Island to Musk’s Baby Farm — How the Right Redefined Masculinity as Control, by Thom Hartmann.

Underneath the memes, podcasts, and tradwife fantasies lies a dangerous agenda: train young men to reject equality, fear women’s power, and embrace authoritarianism disguised as masculinity . . .


Rape culture isn’t just at the top; it’s everywhere, especially in the digital spaces young men inhabit.


This isn’t just a parental issue, it’s a cultural emergency. This content is shaping how an entire generation understands sex, power, and consent.

And Trump’s “best friend” Epstein was an avatar of that twisted worldview.


. . .


White women are expected to go “back to the kitchen and bedroom,” producing more white babies in a panic about the “browning” of America.


This fixation on race and reproduction mirrors the same “Great Replacement Theory” rhetoric promoted on Fox “News” and other rightwing outlets that fed the Charlottesville rally and inspired mass murderers in Las Vegas, Buffalo, and El Paso.


From Trump saying, “If Hillary Clinton can’t satisfy her husband what makes her think she can satisfy America?” to telling Esquire Magazine that “arm candy” is essential for a successful businessman (“You know, it doesn’t really matter what [the media] write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass”) to sarcastically calling Kamala Harris “a beautiful woman,” our president has long made clear his thoughts on the role of women. . . .

Interesting article. I see the Democrats are determined to lose even more support from young men going forward. What are they shooting for the next election? 10%? Someone needs to take that shovel away...

And what's the status on the $20 million Democrats are spending to see what makes men tick? Have they come to any conclusions so far? Maybe they could hire Jane Goodall?

The meaning of this post eludes me. Just what is it you think Democrats should be doing?

Obama on the male malaise: 8 takeaways

Why he thinks it is time to focus more on boys and men

ofboysandmen.substack.com

-from the article-
It is still harder than it should be to advocate for boys and men in center-left spaces and institutions. The idea that being pro-male means being anti-female is a hard one to overcome. I get it; but also, people have to get over it. Obama (in what follows I mean Barack unless otherwise stated) offered an unflinching diagnosis:
Obama quote:

"What we're learning is that when we don't think about boys and just assume they're going to be OK because they've been running the world and they've got all the advantages relative to the girls - and all of which has historically been true in all kinds of ways. But precisely because of that, if you're not thinking about what's happening to boys and how are they being raised, then that can actually hurt women… And I will say, as ‘ progressives’, Democrats, progressive parents, enlightened ones, we've made that mistake sometimes in terms of our rhetoric. Where it's like we're constantly talking about what's wrong with the boys, instead of what's right with them."

The messaging here is absolutely spot-on. Obama’s willingness to scold his own side, and indeed himself, for the mistakes in how they talk about male issues is an important moment. We have got to get past the deficit-based framing on this issue, abandon terms like “toxic masculinity” (which does not appear once in the episode, I’m happy to report), and approach boys and men with empathy and compassion, not blame and shame.

 

[RVonse]

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"

While the question itself is highly relevant I certainly would not expect men on an individual level to solve such an evolutionary issue appearing on the general horizons of our society. As technology advances, men are simply no longer needed for safety and protection. Nor as AI advances will men be useful (more than women) for inventing any more technology. Nor are men needed to produce offspring. So if men aren't useless at this point they soon will be. Maybe AI will make the women useless pretty soon too.

This kind of singularity isnt going to be solved at the individual level.

 

[bilby]

Nor as AI advances will men be useful (more than women) for inventing any more technology.

AI is a bullshit generator, so in that regard I guess it could supplant men; But men have never been "useful (more than women) for inventing any more technology".

Just ask Ada Lovelace*.

When all of the assumptions you bring to your analysis are wrong, it is a really bad idea to assume that your conclusions are of any value whatsoever.







* Well, obviously you can't because she died in 1852; But presumably you feel that 1852 was before the time when men ceased to be useful (more than women). I am guessing you would have assumed that men were still useful (more than women) as recently as 1952.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Why do I keep hearing that young men feel "left behind" when in reality, it's just the opportunity gap was finally closing (WAS). Why do men feel like they've been 'left behind'?

When you are accustomed to only seeing biological men in a given space, seeing biological women there as well is inherently and instinctively terrifying. Men, we are told, are easily startled by such changes, and often violent. Chimpanzee-like, apparently. They just can't handle it. They go bananas.

So goes the story, anyway. From my vantage point as a professor, I don't see any evidence that male college students themselves are plagued by such feelings, it's their parents who are really doing the freaking out, and tje media amplifying it. Not to say that today's young men aren't dealing with a lot of real and serious problems, but I don't think "there are too many girls at college" would be first on the list for most.

Well I must be an anomaly, as I'm a hetero male who has always preferred the company of women.

I don't know of any situation where the presence of women would make me go bananas. I do know of men who like a boy's club atmosphere, especially when it comes to playing/watching sports and/or going nuts in a bar, but that's not me.

A good deal of men are just posturing assholes, which is why I am most happy when there are none around.

I could not agree more. Hell, this is why I took every available art class in high school.

 

[bigfield]

In high school we read To Kill a Mockingbird. My teacher described Atticus Finch as a caricature of a masculine ideal: he was gentle, kind, and learned, and a great shot with a gun but only when it was absolutely necessary. It is childish (as befitting the story's narrator) but also a clear cut picture of a man being a hero. I expect that when most people think about the kind of men that they want to have around them, in their homes, their workplaces and their communities, then they'll think of men who share many of Atticus's virtues, and standing in strong contrast to the likes of the Proud Boys or Andrew Tate.

Young men generally want to feel a sense of belonging, to be wanted. This has several facets: they want to have a role to play in their community (their job, their community groups), they want to be desired by young women (with notable exceptions), they want to be help in high esteem by the people in their family, neighbourhood and social circles.

Boys nowadays grow up with countless examples of male behaviour. They aren't just learning from the men in their local community, they're learning from social media, TV, and films, plus all the advertising that's mixed in with the actual content. It's a lot to take in, and a lot of it is over the top. As someone I knew put it, "boys don't know how to act anymore." He lamented the fact that the masculine ideals of his childhood were no longer being celebrated in popular culture, and that there was no longer a clear model to follow.

We shouldn't want that old-fashioned model to return as-is, because it has some unnecessary baggage like chauvinism, homophobia, and alcoholism. But I think he was onto something: if we want our boys to live fulfilling lives and be good to people, then we would do everyone a favour by giving them very clear messages about how they ought to act. We, as parents and mentors, are up against a tidal wave of bullshit. On social media, where every women telling men what she wants in a boyfriend is met by ten red-pillers telling her she's wrong; against TV and films which tell boys they have to get jacked and solve their problems with their fists; against advertising which is in the business of inventing bullshit problems for bullshit solutions.

 

[Politesse]

He lamented the fact that the masculine ideals of his childhood were no longer being celebrated in popular culture, and that there was no longer a clear model to follow

Is this true? I mean, I definitely remember Atticus being talked up quite a bit in my English classes, and I would be very surprised indeed to learn that he is no longer held up as a masculine ideal by Americans in general. If anything, a bit of a mob formed to defend his imaginary honor, when Lee published a somewhat less flattering sequel. I've never in my life heard anyone describe his portrayal in the original book as "toxic", and would be surprised to. Especially if it were in the context of a high school classroom.

 

[bigfield]

He lamented the fact that the masculine ideals of his childhood were no longer being celebrated in popular culture, and that there was no longer a clear model to follow

Is this true? I mean, I definitely remember Atticus being talked up quite a bit in my English classes, and I would be very surprised indeed to learn that he is no longer held up as a masculine ideal by Americans in general. If anything, a bit of a mob formed to defend his imaginary honor, when Lee published a somewhat less flattering sequel. I've never in my life heard anyone describe his portrayal in the original book as "toxic", and would be surprised to. Especially if it were in the context of a high school classroom.

I didn't mean to suggest that Atticus is toxic. Quite the opposite. I think he's a character that most people would consider to embody positive masculinity.

I'm sure the novel is better known in the US than down here, and if you were to ask someone who has read it they would agree that he's a masculine ideal, but it's one character amongst an ever-growing number of competing portrayals of masculinity.

 

[Politesse]

That much is true. The "Marvel superhero male" is not so good of an influence in many ways. But then, neither was the "Lone gun for hire" archetype that he fairly directly replaced, and in many ways resembles. There were alwyas multiple portrayals of the masculine running around, some healthier for society than others. What I worry about is which of those models is currently becoming associated with political power and economic prosperity. People may admire their childhood tv hereos, but they emulate those the real life people that they see as successful. Looking at the leadership of the country and the personality type associated with corporate leadership these days makes me very, very nervous.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

From Epstein’s Island to Musk’s Baby Farm — How the Right Redefined Masculinity as Control, by Thom Hartmann.

Underneath the memes, podcasts, and tradwife fantasies lies a dangerous agenda: train young men to reject equality, fear women’s power, and embrace authoritarianism disguised as masculinity . . .


Rape culture isn’t just at the top; it’s everywhere, especially in the digital spaces young men inhabit.


This isn’t just a parental issue, it’s a cultural emergency. This content is shaping how an entire generation understands sex, power, and consent.

And Trump’s “best friend” Epstein was an avatar of that twisted worldview.


. . .


White women are expected to go “back to the kitchen and bedroom,” producing more white babies in a panic about the “browning” of America.


This fixation on race and reproduction mirrors the same “Great Replacement Theory” rhetoric promoted on Fox “News” and other rightwing outlets that fed the Charlottesville rally and inspired mass murderers in Las Vegas, Buffalo, and El Paso.


From Trump saying, “If Hillary Clinton can’t satisfy her husband what makes her think she can satisfy America?” to telling Esquire Magazine that “arm candy” is essential for a successful businessman (“You know, it doesn’t really matter what [the media] write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass”) to sarcastically calling Kamala Harris “a beautiful woman,” our president has long made clear his thoughts on the role of women. . . .

Interesting article. I see the Democrats are determined to lose even more support from young men going forward. What are they shooting for the next election? 10%? Someone needs to take that shovel away...

And what's the status on the $20 million Democrats are spending to see what makes men tick? Have they come to any conclusions so far? Maybe they could hire Jane Goodall?

The meaning of this post eludes me. Just what is it you think Democrats should be doing?

What they shouldn't be doing is driving away heterosexual young men, but they have been quite successful at doing it.

I'm gonna be 56 next months, so I can let all this bullshit hostility towards "heteronormative" males slide off my back. However, if I was a young man, I'd run from the Democrats and the radical morons running the party.

It's shallow to say, but one of the main things that caused me to reject the GOP altogether was the controversy over Bill getting a blowjob. I was around 23 or 24 at the time. If I were that same age and hearing liberals say the shit they say now, fuck them, I'd be right out.

I like to have sex with women. I really liked the variety and amount of women I slept with, and I have zero regrets; it was awesome. If someone doesn't like it, they can, well, blow me.

23 year old me would've been out campaigning for the GOP because they'd accept me.

 

[Toni]

Nor as AI advances will men be useful (more than women) for inventing any more technology.

AI is a bullshit generator, so in that regard I guess it could supplant men; But men have never been "useful (more than women) for inventing any more technology".

Just ask Ada Lovelace*.

When all of the assumptions you bring to your analysis are wrong, it is a really bad idea to assume that your conclusions are of any value whatsoever.







* Well, obviously you can't because she died in 1852; But presumably you feel that 1852 was before the time when men ceased to be useful (more than women). I am guessing you would have assumed that men were still useful (more than women) as recently as 1952.

I’m guessing he thought men were more useful as recently as 2020. I don’t mean it as a slam. Many men that I know think of men as being more useful: physically stronger, better at defending women and children, smarter math and science, which, btw, is all that actually counts. [/Fe]. Largely because women’s contributions in fields of mathematics and science have mostly been ignored, forgotten or misattributed to men. Women have largely been invisible in those field and indeed in music, art, history, engineering, sociology and psychology and of course literature. They participated and contributed, yes. But were most often acknowledged. Less true starting in the mid-20th century but still true.

 

[bilby]

Women have largely been invisible in those field and indeed in music, art, history, engineering, sociology and psychology and of course literature. They participated and contributed, yes. But were most often acknowledged. Less true starting in the mid-20th century but still true.

Yeah, I recall a trivia question which asked:

What did James Watson and Francis Crick famously discover in 1952?​

To which, of course, the correct answer is:

Rosalind Franklin's notes.​

 

[Politesse]

From Epstein’s Island to Musk’s Baby Farm — How the Right Redefined Masculinity as Control, by Thom Hartmann.

Underneath the memes, podcasts, and tradwife fantasies lies a dangerous agenda: train young men to reject equality, fear women’s power, and embrace authoritarianism disguised as masculinity . . .


Rape culture isn’t just at the top; it’s everywhere, especially in the digital spaces young men inhabit.


This isn’t just a parental issue, it’s a cultural emergency. This content is shaping how an entire generation understands sex, power, and consent.

And Trump’s “best friend” Epstein was an avatar of that twisted worldview.


. . .


White women are expected to go “back to the kitchen and bedroom,” producing more white babies in a panic about the “browning” of America.


This fixation on race and reproduction mirrors the same “Great Replacement Theory” rhetoric promoted on Fox “News” and other rightwing outlets that fed the Charlottesville rally and inspired mass murderers in Las Vegas, Buffalo, and El Paso.


From Trump saying, “If Hillary Clinton can’t satisfy her husband what makes her think she can satisfy America?” to telling Esquire Magazine that “arm candy” is essential for a successful businessman (“You know, it doesn’t really matter what [the media] write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass”) to sarcastically calling Kamala Harris “a beautiful woman,” our president has long made clear his thoughts on the role of women. . . .

Interesting article. I see the Democrats are determined to lose even more support from young men going forward. What are they shooting for the next election? 10%? Someone needs to take that shovel away...

And what's the status on the $20 million Democrats are spending to see what makes men tick? Have they come to any conclusions so far? Maybe they could hire Jane Goodall?

The meaning of this post eludes me. Just what is it you think Democrats should be doing?

What they shouldn't be doing is driving away heterosexual young men, but they have been quite successful at doing it.

I'm gonna be 56 next months, so I can let all this bullshit hostility towards "heteronormative" males slide off my back. However, if I was a young man, I'd run from the Democrats and the radical morons running the party.

It's shallow to say, but one of the main things that caused me to reject the GOP altogether was the controversy over Bill getting a blowjob. I was around 23 or 24 at the time. If I were that same age and hearing liberals say the shit they say now, fuck them, I'd be right out.

I like to have sex with women. I really liked the variety and amount of women I slept with, and I have zero regrets; it was awesome. If someone doesn't like it, they can, well, blow me.

23 year old me would've been out campaigning for the GOP because they'd accept me.

I do not believe that it is useful to talk about what someone shouldn't be doing, unless one has an alternative suggestion. As far as I know, the radical morons running the Democratic Party are not in fact opposed to heterosexuality in any way, so what is it you want them to do exactly?

 

[Politesse]

Women have largely been invisible in those field and indeed in music, art, history, engineering, sociology and psychology and of course literature. They participated and contributed, yes. But were most often acknowledged. Less true starting in the mid-20th century but still true.

Yeah, I recall a trivia question which asked:

What did James Watson and Francis Crick famously discover in 1952?​

To which, of course, the correct answer is:

Rosalind Franklin's notes.​

Maurice Wilkins erasure!

 

[Toni]

Women have largely been invisible in those field and indeed in music, art, history, engineering, sociology and psychology and of course literature. They participated and contributed, yes. But were most often acknowledged. Less true starting in the mid-20th century but still true.

Yeah, I recall a trivia question which asked:

What did James Watson and Francis Crick famously discover in 1952?​

To which, of course, the correct answer is:

Rosalind Franklin's notes.​

Maurice Wilkins erasure!

He did earn a Nobel. Unlike Franklin and in fact went behind her back to share her images.

 

[bigfield]

What I worry about is which of those models is currently becoming associated with political power and economic prosperity. People may admire their childhood tv hereos, but they emulate those the real life people that they see as successful.

When my father was coming of age, there was a clear path to success laid out for him: get a trade, work at the mines, play football, get married, buy a house and have kids. The Australian Dream. He was and is a fairly normal person: gregarious and confident. I always looked up to my father but I couldn't emulate him because I'm too different. Maybe if I had more suitable role models to follow I would have found it easier to transition from boyhood to manhood.

I'm sure there are many boys out there who are introverted or odd in some way and are isolated within their real life communities, so they find community on the internet. This is good in some ways, but there's also the danger that such men will find community amongst incels and the alt-right, and will find role models among gurus and cult leaders.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Feverish, selfish little clods of ailments and grievances, complaining that the world will not devote itself to making them happy.

I don't disagree with the sentiment conveyed in the article. But to what end? Will calling these whinny little bitches out for who they are effect any change in them? Highly doubtful. It will likely push them further into the arms of he of such piss-poor character, President I Should Have Been Aborted.

So you had no one to look up to when you were young - me too.
So you were finding out who you were in the social strata and you didn't like it - me too.
So you were discovering your educational limitations and employment prospects - me too.
And I came of age at the collapse of the auto industry in an industrial part of the country defined by the auto industry - not you.
And I studied anyways and made the best of it - not you.
And I stood up, took care of my responsibilities and controlled my urges - not you.

So you make the best of it, like any other disadvantaged person for whatever reason does, you do what you have to to get by. You stand up. You pay your bills. You take care of the family you create. That's the difficult work of manhood, not what George Bernard Shaw describes in my opening sentence, that's easy.

 

[scombrid]

Road rage in Arizona. Pickup truck horns a Dodge Charger for not proceeding on a green light. Dodge Charger break checks the truck once moving again. Driver of Dodge Charger gets out and is yelling at the other driver. Both have children in their cars. Pickup driver kills the car driver because he might have had a gun. Pickup driver is a coke head and had cocaine in his truck with his kid. No charges for the violence. Just the coke. That’s a real man. Nobody is going to fuck with him.

 

[Politesse]

I'm sure there are many boys out there who are introverted or odd in some way and are isolated within their real life communities, so they find community on the internet.

Well, that's arguably how I ended up as a Woke gay warlock...

 

[lostone]

short, weak, unathletic, atheistic, introverted scholarly men have a lot of trouble on the dating scene and get a lot of rejections. I did.

So do short, plump women without pretty faces.

OTOH, few people don't get a lot of scars on the dating scene. Even the 8s, 9s, and 10s. It's a brutal game. But most people survive it, and find some kind of mate roughly at their own level of attractiveness. That's what I get out of studies and books I have read. Water finds it own level.

We could make some effort to be kinder to each other.

 

[Politesse]

I don't think "kindness" is what young men are after when they get wrapped up in the hyper-masculinized self help help scene. If anything, it's "tough love" that is drawing them in. Someone teaching them "how to be a man" and get the money, respect, and sex they deserve. Jordan Peterson isn't selling love-ins and hugs, but combed hair, briefcases, and a straight gig-line.