Fat-shaming, fat acceptance, and 'body diversity'.

[Metaphor]

I am going to start with a confession.

I am morbidly obese. I've been a long time member of talkfreethought and its previous iterations, but most people on the board probably don't know anything about my body size. And, now that you know, it probably changes your perception of me. Well, it has to change your perception by definition because you now have more information. But I think the new perception might be more negative.

I occassionally read posts on feministing and other feminist sites, and I've noticed a very strong push towards celebrating 'body diversity' and 'beauty at any size' and other similar sentiments.

Fat-shaming somebody is basically dehumanising, callous, and generally mean-spirited. It also doesn't work for fatties (I've decided to reclaim the language) like myself in losing weight. If bullying overweight children worked, no child in any playground would be overweight ever.

But. But. I do not like being fat. I don't want to celebrate it. I don't think it's a desirable thing to be, and I certainly don't think it's attractive, on persons of either gender but especially on men. My perspective is as a gay man, and I'd be utterly turned off if I had a partner with a body like mine. Apart from some people (I'd say less than 1% of the population) who are actually sexually attracted to fatties, it's clear that the aesthetic and sexual preference for the vast majority of the population is for individuals with BMIs of around 19-23 (towards the lower end of the range for shorter people and towards the higher end of the range for taller people).

Or, to put it another way: many of the people in my life are fat, and they would look better and feel better if they were not.

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

I don't want a half-naked obese man in ads for aftershave. That doesn't sell product and it never will. I want to see the beautiful people, not more people like myself.

I also watch a lot of trashy British reality television, where obese people blame their fatness on completely nonsensical causes, like 'healthy food costs too much'. No, it doesn't. A kilogram of potato crisps costs several times the price of a kilo of fruit or vegetables. You don't need more money to consume fewer calories. You need less money.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Have you considered hypnotism? Myself, I'm too vain to get unhealthy and overweight. Besides, it would really cut into the things I like to do.

 

[Axulus]

I am going to start with a confession.

I am morbidly obese. I've been a long time member of talkfreethought and its previous iterations, but most people on the board probably don't know anything about my body size. And, now that you know, it probably changes your perception of me. Well, it has to change your perception by definition because you now have more information. But I think the new perception might be more negative.

I occassionally read posts on feministing and other feminist sites, and I've noticed a very strong push towards celebrating 'body diversity' and 'beauty at any size' and other similar sentiments.

Fat-shaming somebody is basically dehumanising, callous, and generally mean-spirited. It also doesn't work for fatties (I've decided to reclaim the language) like myself in losing weight. If bullying overweight children worked, no child in any playground would be overweight ever.

But. But. I do not like being fat. I don't want to celebrate it. I don't think it's a desirable thing to be, and I certainly don't think it's attractive, on persons of either gender but especially on men. My perspective is as a gay man, and I'd be utterly turned off if I had a partner with a body like mine. Apart from some people (I'd say less than 1% of the population) who are actually sexually attracted to fatties, it's clear that the aesthetic and sexual preference for the vast majority of the population is for individuals with BMIs of around 19-23 (towards the lower end of the range for shorter people and towards the higher end of the range for taller people).

Or, to put it another way: many of the people in my life are fat, and they would look better and feel better if they were not.

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

I don't want a half-naked obese man in ads for aftershave. That doesn't sell product and it never will. I want to see the beautiful people, not more people like myself.

I also watch a lot of trashy British reality television, where obese people blame their fatness on completely nonsensical causes, like 'healthy food costs too much'. No, it doesn't. A kilogram of potato crisps costs several times the price of a kilo of fruit or vegetables. You don't need more money to consume fewer calories. You need less money.

There's a high cost to a beauty and thin body obsessed culture - tens of billions spent every year on yo-yo dieting that rarely has any long-term benefit, much higher risk of mental health issues for those whose body is far from the culturally ideal size and level of attractiveness (which is actually an extremely abnormal body) and sometimes even for those whose size is healthy. The perception that one is ugly and unattractive takes a heavy toll on a person, both economically and mentally.

I think the idea with showing all kinds of body types is to try to reverse the perceptions of what the ideal body should look like and to start improving the mental and economic health of people who suffer from having the perception that they are ugly and unattractive.

The question is - how can we encourage people to be healthier and lose weight in a positive way and not have them take an unnecessary mental toll and an over abundance of self-blame when they fail to meet their weight targets, and also have less distorted perceptions of their own body and own attractiveness and what they can realistically achieve weight wise?

 

[Metaphor]

There's a high cost to a beauty and thin body obsessed culture - tens of billions spent every year on yo-yo dieting that rarely has any long-term benefit, much higher risk of mental health issues for those whose body is far from the culturally ideal size and level of attractiveness (which is actually an extremely abnormal body) and sometimes even for those whose size is healthy. The perception that one is ugly and unattractive takes a heavy toll on a person, both economically and mentally.

The culture is not necessarily 'thin' body obsessed -- the standards for the ideal male body probably take more work than the standards for the ideal female body (which is basically don't be fat).

I think the idea with showing all kinds of body types is to try to reverse the perceptions of what the ideal body should look like

You can't 'reverse' them, any more than you can reverse the preference that people generally prefer younger looking people with unblemished skin.

The question is - how can we encourage people to be healthier and lose weight in a positive way and not have them take an unnecessary mental toll and an over abundance of self-blame when they fail to meet their weight targets, and also have less distorted perceptions of their own body and own attractiveness and what they can realistically achieve weight wise?

Unfortunately, people's perceptions are distorted as you say -- but in the exact opposite direction. People consistently overestimate their height and underestimate their weight. People think they are more healthy than they actually are.

My body will never look like Sergei Polunin's. But that doesn't mean his body isn't far closer to ideal than mine.

- - - Updated - - -

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Have you considered hypnotism? Myself, I'm too vain to get unhealthy and overweight. Besides, it would really cut into the things I like to do.

Thank you for your well-reasoned and insightful contribution.

 

[gmbteach]

Hi Metaphor.

Firstly, yes my perception of you has changed. I now see you as a brave and courageous person who is baring their 'soul' and I admire you for it.

Secondly, as someone who is also obese, I don't know how morbidly obese I am, but I have been obese for a considerable time, I can understand how you feel.

One thing I do know is that I am loved for who I am. For some reason, that I am still trying to understand, I am considered sexy by my fiance. We have also discussed how he will feel about me when I do lose the weight (a later discussion if you like). He has told me that he loves who I am, not so much how I look.

I don't know if that helps you or not, or if you want more, but it's my 2 cents worth.

Gaynor

 

[barbos]

My body will never look like Sergei Polunin's.

There was a recent news about attempts at head transplanting, just saying.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Btw, on beauty ideals historically. It's always been attractive to have a body that is hard to achieve. For any age. When food was scarce it was attractive to be plump. Now when food is plentiful the reverse is true. So there's no real point in feeling bad about not looking perfect. Only a minority ever will. The people who celebrate body diversity have missed this pretty basic point of human psychology. It's stupid and pointless to try to change ideals. It's smarter to instead try to be comfortable with your own body. We all need to accept not being perfect at some point. The sooner the better.

But on that note. I've always been a fitness nut. In my early 20'ies I was a photo model for underwear, as well as runway model for top brands. So I'm not really in a position to say I know how you feel. But I do know how I managed to get my body. It hasn't been so much hard work as having the luck of growing up in a family with healthy habits surrounding food. Habits which I took after. I really don't have to make any effort to avoid unhealthy food. I only like to eat healthy food. Now in my 40'ies I've got the strongest and fittest body I've ever had in my entire life.

So we've got all sorts on this forum. I do recommend getting into shape. It's awesome!

edit: On the topic of the price of healthy food... you're right. Healthy food is dirt cheap. Lentil soup is one of the cheapest dishes in the world to make. Also one of the healthiest. Also my favourite food. Most root vegetables taste fantastic, are dirt cheap, and are healthy as fuck. All beans... pure health heaven. I buy dried beans. Cook two kilos at a go. When they're done and cooled off I just pop them all in a plastic bag and shove them in the freezer. I add a handful to each meal. The best tasting rice is whole meal rice. Cheap as dirt. Health heaven. Throw a pinch of sesame, sunflower or lin- seeds onto any dish to magically transform it into a healthy one. Also... snacks. Just buy nuts. Plain unsalted unroasted nuts. You can't really go wrong. Just nibble away at your hearts content. So when people complain that eating healthy is expensive, I suspect they haven't actually ever entered a proper store and actually looked at the prices.

 

[none]

Metaphor,
Do you feel bullied?

 

[TV and credit cards]

I usually have about a 26% BMI. For one wonderful summer I did the vegan thing and rode my bike alot. I was also unemployed, living off my pension so I had plenty of time to do this. I was probably about 21% BMI. Sadly, I've been stricken with employment since then and am back to my oldself.
I liked who I was that summer. Call it vanity. I don't care. Not only did I need a belt to keep my pants up, I needed to punch another hole in my belt. Sure, I could have bought a new belt but I was proud to wear that belt.
I think about the approaching summer and that I am back to my oldself. It's depressing.
One good thing has stuck with me though. Though I am back to my oldself, I do not like or crave this food like I did. There seems to have been a permanent change in me. I'll go out to lunch with the guys at work. I'll eat the nasty food again but I do not enjoy it like I did. I do have cravings for the healthy meals I invented. It seems I've cut new paths in my mind and the old ones have grown over somewhat. I've got to do this again. For the sake of enjoying life and doing what I want. It is that important to me. I live alone and always will. There is no one to take care of me if need be.

Try to quit dairy. I found this to be the easiest thing to do. It's a good start if you are so inclined. The hell with vanity. It's about your health.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Metaphor

As a woman who has spent the majority of her life either overweight or obese, I know where you are. At my heaviest I was over 300 lbs and wore an American size 28W. I now wear a misses size 12 and am actually considered smaller than average in comparison to the rest of the US female population.

If you want to know how I lost the weight, I will tell you, if you don't, I won't. But I will tell you this. You have got to make peace with the fat. From what I'm reading, you have not done that. Until you make peace with the fat, you can't make peace with reasons for the fat and you will yo-yo until you die. And you will never be happy.

Let me know what you want you to do. Feel free to pm me if that is more comfortable for you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Try to quit dairy. I found this to be the easiest thing to do. It's a good start if you are so inclined. The hell with vanity. It's about your health.

There's nothing wrong with dairy. I've studied nutrition at university. The world needs less bullshit diet advice from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There's also nothing wrong with eating fat or fatty foods. It's more complicated than that. Without knowing how Metaphor eats, sleeps, works today, it's impossible to offer any specific tips that you know will help. Great... dairy worked for you. Also... whether you're vegan or not is irrelevant as far as health is concerned. Vegans can eat just as badly as people who eat meat. It's more complicated than that. Also... all natural whole grain food tend to be better than processed foods. But doesn't have to be. It's more complicated than that. It's hard to find a more processed product than whey on the market. Super healthy. Also made from dairy.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'm sapiosexual, so to me you're totally hot.

 

[Bronzeage]

I am not now, nor have I ever been morbidly obese, but I have a few morbidities of my own. If I had a choice in the matter, I would prefer a morbidity which was more in my control. Every morning, I swallow a total of seven different pills. I long since given up on remembering their names of their functions. If I didn't take them, in a day or two, my blood pressure will be somewhere around 260/180 and my blood sugar will be over 200. There is one pill which staves off the kind of angina which will make me drop to my knees. If I forget my morning meds, the angina reminds me, sometime around 9am.

The blood pressure thing started early. It slowly crept up over the years and at age 37, I spent a week in Cardiac Intensive Care, on a nitroglycerin IV. This was in my Chippendale days. Diet and exercise were not an option. Since then, it's been a gradually decline into decrepitude. My chemistry hates me, but science fights back and there is always another pill, or maybe a bigger one.

One thing that has changed since 1993 is that diet and exercise have become an option. My doctor assures me, if I were the trim 190 pound Chippendale, instead of the 220 pound Chumpendale, I am today, I might not need all those pills. Some are here to stay, but it's worth a try. I've been trying for quite some time, now. I've gotten to 205, a couple times, but the motivation is just not there. My brain rebels at the kind of work that kept me at 190 pounds and happily accepts the food that brought me to 220.

 

[Derec]

 

[barbos]

I am not now, nor have I ever been morbidly obese, but I have a few morbidities of my own. If I had a choice in the matter, I would prefer a morbidity which was more in my control. Every morning, I swallow a total of seven different pills. I long since given up on remembering their names of their functions. If I didn't take them, in a day or two, my blood pressure will be somewhere around 260/180 and my blood sugar will be over 200. There is one pill which staves off the kind of angina which will make me drop to my knees. If I forget my morning meds, the angina reminds me, sometime around 9am.

The blood pressure thing started early. It slowly crept up over the years and at age 37, I spent a week in Cardiac Intensive Care, on a nitroglycerin IV. This was in my Chippendale days. Diet and exercise were not an option. Since then, it's been a gradually decline into decrepitude. My chemistry hates me, but science fights back and there is always another pill, or maybe a bigger one.

One thing that has changed since 1993 is that diet and exercise have become an option. My doctor assures me, if I were the trim 190 pound Chippendale, instead of the 220 pound Chumpendale, I am today, I might not need all those pills. Some are here to stay, but it's worth a try. I've been trying for quite some time, now. I've gotten to 205, a couple times, but the motivation is just not there. My brain rebels at the kind of work that kept me at 190 pounds and happily accepts the food that brought me to 220.

Wow, I did not know blood pressure 260/180 was possible.
You reminded me I still need to lose 5kg to get BMI=22.5.

 

[Bronzeage]

I am not now, nor have I ever been morbidly obese, but I have a few morbidities of my own. If I had a choice in the matter, I would prefer a morbidity which was more in my control. Every morning, I swallow a total of seven different pills. I long since given up on remembering their names of their functions. If I didn't take them, in a day or two, my blood pressure will be somewhere around 260/180 and my blood sugar will be over 200. There is one pill which staves off the kind of angina which will make me drop to my knees. If I forget my morning meds, the angina reminds me, sometime around 9am.

The blood pressure thing started early. It slowly crept up over the years and at age 37, I spent a week in Cardiac Intensive Care, on a nitroglycerin IV. This was in my Chippendale days. Diet and exercise were not an option. Since then, it's been a gradually decline into decrepitude. My chemistry hates me, but science fights back and there is always another pill, or maybe a bigger one.

One thing that has changed since 1993 is that diet and exercise have become an option. My doctor assures me, if I were the trim 190 pound Chippendale, instead of the 220 pound Chumpendale, I am today, I might not need all those pills. Some are here to stay, but it's worth a try. I've been trying for quite some time, now. I've gotten to 205, a couple times, but the motivation is just not there. My brain rebels at the kind of work that kept me at 190 pounds and happily accepts the food that brought me to 220.

Wow, I did not know blood pressure 260/180 was possible.
You reminded me I still need to lose 5kg to get BMI=22.5.

Yes, it's possible, for a while. I had no idea. One morning I woke up with a blind spot in my right eye. The capillaries in my eye were swollen and constricted the optic nerve bundle enough to permanently damage some of the nerves.

The conventional BMI charts say I should weigh 175lbs(79.4kg), which would be a sight. I have a 48 inch chest, but when I buy a suit, I have to start with a 52 size to fit the shoulders and have it altered to fit my chest and waist. If I weighed 175, I might fit a 38 jacket. I don't see that happening.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Morbid obesity is a choice... depending on who you talk to. I don't know about obesity. How much is caused by genetics for some, environment for others, sheer laziness for others.

I definitely don't react well to obesity. I accidentally got up to 180 to 185 (I'm 5'11"). I finally noticed in a picture from Xmas and then set forth to immediately lose 20 pounds through the unfun art of eating appropriate portions (the true key to dieting, not starving, not some concentrated focus on one food group, simple portion control, eat whatever you want, just a reasonable portion of it). Lost the 20 pounds in about two months.

My wife was overweight in high school but was able to get over that by developing anorexia. She now is healthy and talks much better about food since I've been with her, as I'd hit her on the head with a mallet if she ever talked about "being good" when it came to food. She now gets upset at her mom for talking like she used to talk.

So that is how I see it. I could be fat, but I choose not to. How much of a choice it is for others, I haven't a clue, but for many they think they have that clue and judge. For me though, I don't judge, I just have the instinctual first conception that comes to mind about it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Have you considered hypnotism? Myself, I'm too vain to get unhealthy and overweight. Besides, it would really cut into the things I like to do.

Thank you for your well-reasoned and insightful contribution.

????????????

A friend kicked his cigarette habit using hypnotism. It worked for him and it can't be terribly expensive I'm guessing.

And there's the guy that juiced is way to health in "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead." Sometimes you have to try new things. It also takes group reinforcement for many people.

Also, sometimes it resolves itself as we age - if it doesn't kill you first. Another friend suffered a heart attack and triple bypass. He takes care of himself now. The weight is off and so are the unhealthy foods.

And yet another friend went right back to smoking and his previous lifestyle. He didn't last a year.

Whatever you do, or don't do, make your peace with it.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'm vain as all get out. Didn't stop me getting fat. lol

 

[ZiprHead]

Wow, didn't know there were so many fatties here.

I was morbidly obese many years ago. Must be about 15 years or so ago I had a mini-gastric bypass surgery. I weighed about 400 lbs., had HBP and was pre-diabetic. After the surgery, amazingly almost immediately, my HBP and pre-diabetic conditions were gone even though I had only started to lose the weight. I ultimately got down to about 220 lbs. then flattened out at about 230.

Since I retired and took this delivery job I'm now doing, I've put on about 15 lbs. due to much sitting in my vehicle and eating crappy fast food while out on my runs.

That surgery was a major life-changer for me. If I was religious, I'd probably say it was a godsend.

Now I've got to give up the cigarettes I started smoking again a few years ago after quitting back in 1990. Where's that "I could kick my own ass!" smiley? What an idiot move that was.