How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[aupmanyav]

Tell Russia that the next Russian warplane to enter NATO airspace will be shot down with no further warning. Then do it.
If a NATO warplane crossed into Russian airspace, I would not be surprised or outraged if Russia tried to shoot it down. I would be surprised if they didn't.

DO IT. What is the problem?

 

[bilby]

Ever looked at a map? Russia is far away from India.

If you accept Putin's doctrine that the former USSR is all part of Russia*; And the Indian claim that Kashmir is a part of India**, then the two are separated only by the narrow Afghan panhandle - roughly ten miles.






* Your belief that his invasion of Ukraine is not unlawful suggests that you do

** Your comments on the recent India-Pakistan hostilities suggest that you do

 

[bilby]

Tell Russia that the next Russian warplane to enter NATO airspace will be shot down with no further warning. Then do it.

If a NATO warplane crossed into Russian airspace, I would not be surprised or outraged if Russia tried to shoot it down. I would be surprised if they didn't.

DO IT. What is the problem?

The problem is that you (and I) lack the authority to give such an order to the Estonian air defence forces.

 

[aupmanyav]

If you accept Putin's doctrine that the former USSR is all part of Russia*; And the Indian claim that Kashmir is a part of India**, then the two are separated only by the narrow Afghan panhandle - roughly ten miles.

1. I do not take he whole of USSR as Russia, though there is no reason to not to consider Kashmir as part of India. The treaty of accession was signed before India went in to save Kashmir. At a later date, religion alone cannot be a reason for secession. We have Christian majority states too, Mizoram and Nagaland.
2. Look at the map again. It is not just 10 miles of Afghanistan, but Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Do you consider them part of Russia? You are talking of British times.

 

[aupmanyav]

The problem is that you (and I) lack the authority to give such an order to the Estonian air defense forces.

You also do not have the authority to give such an order to Poland also. Russian drones and planes have violated the Polish air space also. China has violated Taiwan air space and sea.

 

[bilby]

Look at the map again. It is not just 10 miles of Afghanistan, but Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Do you consider them part of Russia? You are talking of British times.

Look at history again. All of those were part of the USSR. If you (correctly) consider them not to be part of Russia, then it would be inconsistent and perverse for you not to also consider Ukraine to not be a part of Russia.

In which case, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is inexcusable.

 

[bilby]

Tell Russia that the next Russian warplane to enter NATO airspace will be shot down with no further warning. Then do it.

If a NATO warplane crossed into Russian airspace, I would not be surprised or outraged if Russia tried to shoot it down. I would be surprised if they didn't.

DO IT. What is the problem?

The problem is that you (and I) lack the authority to give such an order to the Estonian air defence forces.

It looks as though those who do have such authority have given the appropriate warning at the UN Security Council:

European allies have vowed to shoot down any Russian aircraft violating their airspace after Nato members accused Moscow of repeated incursions into the alliance’s territory in recent weeks.

“If another missile or aircraft enters our space without permission, deliberately or by mistake, and gets shot down and the wreckage falls on Nato territory, please don’t come here to whine about it,” Poland’s foreign minister, Radosław Sikorski, told an emergency meeting of the UN security council in New York on Monday that was called to discuss a Russian airspace incursion over Estonia.

Teh Grauniad

 

[aupmanyav]

Christian majority states of India: Mizoram 88%, Nagaland 87%, Meghalaya 75%. Other states are Manipur 41%, Arunachal Pradesh 30%.
Kashmir had a free and fair democratic election in October 2024 and is ruled by their traditionally popular party, National Conference, led by Omar Abdullah in its third generation after Sheikh Abdullah and Farooq Abdullah. That is the wish of the Kashmiri people. National Conference is in opposition to Modi's party, but that is democracy.

 

[aupmanyav]

Look at history again. All of those were part of the USSR. If you (correctly) consider them not to be part of Russia, then it would be inconsistent and perverse for you not to also consider Ukraine to not be a part of Russia.

In which case, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is inexcusable.

There is no perversity in India's stand. We maintain that Ukraine is not part of Russia.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine came about because of geo-political reasons and NATO, US, EU all were/are deeply involved in it.
Now, we want the war to end by dialogue between Russia and Ukraine, and with whatever they decide between themselves..
No other country has a say in it, just like in case of India and Pakistan. Too many cooks spoil the dish.

 

[aupmanyav]

It looks as though those who do have such authority have given the appropriate warning at the UN Security Council:

Who cares about the UN Security Council?

Quote: “If another missile or aircraft enters our space without permission, deliberately or by mistake, and gets shot down and the wreckage falls on Nato territory, please don’t come here to whine about it,” Poland’s foreign minister, Radosław Sikorski, told an emergency meeting of the UN security council in New York on Monday that was called to discuss a Russian airspace incursion over Estonia."
They should not just talk, do it when it happens again (if they have the guts).

 

[barbos]

I believe that the people who live in a land, should rule that land

Well, crimeans rulled that they don't want to be rulled by ukro-nazi and speak their nazi language.
Eastern Ukraine did the same, and central Ukraine (including Kiev) will do that too.

I understand that people need to understand that India borders three dangerous imperialistic powers

what are these three?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

 

[barbos]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

It's very disrespectful of you to imply that Xi is an idiot.
Xi fucking told you, that he does non buy your conspiracy theories about "Russia bad, Ukraine good"
China's interest is to have Russia ruled by Russians, not by Americans.

 

[barbos]

We will confront Russian planes in Nato airspace, UK foreign secretary says, and warns Putin risks armed clash – as it happened

Yvette Cooper says Russia is undermining territorial integrity of sovereign nations with fighter jet incursions into European territory

www.theguardian.com

'If we need to confront planes operating in Nato airspace without permission, we will,' UK's Cooper warns, as she says Putin risking armed confrontation with Nato
UK foreign secretary Yvette Cooper is up next.

She says Russia keeps “violating its most basic obligations under the UN Charter” with “escalating” attacks on Ukraine, and “reckless” acts of incursion into Polish, Romanian and Estonian airspace.

“These latest acts are dangerous and reckless.

At worst, they are a deliberate attempt to undermine the territorial integrity of sovereign nations and European security.

They risk miscalculation, they open the door to direct armed confrontation between Nato and Russia.”

This is actually the 4th time that Russians have invaded Estonia air space this year. Russians have no respect for borders whether on land, in the air, or at sea.

Chances are, Estonian Regime is lying.
If they don't, then fuck them and their stupid island which happened to be on the path of the russian airplane.
They really have no say since they invaded Russia first during War in ..... Chechnya (which is Russia)

 

[TV and credit cards]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

It's very disrespectful of you to imply that Xi is an idiot.
Xi fucking told you, that he does non buy your conspiracy theories about "Russia bad, Ukraine good"
China's interest is to have Russia ruled by Russians, not by Americans.

Xi may not be an idiot but he is transactional and doesn't give a flying fuck about Russia or the Russian people beyond how it may serve China.
I agree with your statement, "not by Americans".

 

[barbos]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

It's very disrespectful of you to imply that Xi is an idiot.
Xi fucking told you, that he does non buy your conspiracy theories about "Russia bad, Ukraine good"
China's interest is to have Russia ruled by Russians, not by Americans.

Xi may not be an idiot but he is transactional and doesn't give a flying fuck about Russia or the Russian people beyond how it may serve China.
I agree with your statement, "not by Americans".

And Western "leaders" give a fuck about Russians. That's why they demanded investigation into May 2 Odessa massacre and ordered Kiev regime to reinstate status of russian language in Ukraine. Wait, no, the West did no such thing.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Trump has tried his best to stop war and get a Nobel Prize.

NATO is involved in instigating Ukraine against Russia since before 2014. It is a NATO war imposed on Ukrainians and Russians.

Funny! First off, you quoted your own post. I didn't say the above (I messed up the embeds). And yea, I know the Russian conspiracy that Nato wants this war. And it's just absurd. Just think for yourself. The war has wrecked havoc on our economies, greatly damaging supply chains. It caused massive inflation that got Trump elected. Trump hates the war. Europe doesn't want war. They want to spend their tax dollars on their people and economy, not buying weapons for Ukraine. If you pay attention, Maga is against the war. Just think for yourself. I'm interested in hearing your perspective as you from India. But if you're just going to parrot the nonsense that Barbos spews out, I'm done.

Again, I understand that people need to understand that India borders three dangerous imperialistic powers.

Which three? China, Pakistan (yes, Pakistan tried to make Afghanistan a client state, but the Taliban proved smarter). Russia?
Ever looked at a map? Russia is far away from India.
Russia has always helped us, provided us the sircrafts, Helped us in our space and missile programs.

Well, I was trying to defend your tentativeness in criticizing Russian imperialism. Your country is far closer to Russia and China than mine is. Quite honestly, with nuclear weapons, the entire world is threatened by Russian imperialism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

It's very disrespectful of you to imply that Xi is an idiot.
Xi fucking told you, that he does non buy your conspiracy theories about "Russia bad, Ukraine good"
China's interest is to have Russia ruled by Russians, not by Americans.

Xi's looking the other way for Russia is solely for China's own self-interest in pushing localized geographic supremacy (not the US didn't do such things with the Monroe Doctrine). China are not fans of Russia. They are just less of fans of the West (see 19th century).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I believe that the people who live in a land, should rule that land

Well, crimeans rulled that they don't want to be rulled by ukro-nazi and speak their nazi language.
Eastern Ukraine did the same, and central Ukraine (including Kiev) will do that too.

Ukraine in the East and Central regions (and West) would have had an easy time switching sides, particularly early on... if they actually wanted to. So it is particularly hard to accept your misinformation that the votes in Russia occupied regions are all about being part of Russia.

 

[barbos]

Poland closed China's trade route to Europe on the 12th of this month. As far as I can tell, it has not been reopened yet. All border crossings with Belarus are closed. That's cool.
Supposedly 25 billion euros flowed through the China-Europe Railway Express through Poland. I like it.

Europe needs what China sends. If Poland route is closed, the goods will go by some other route. Even US does.

And it will take at least twice as long or be prohibitively expensive by air. No one wins in an economic spat but it shines the light on Xi wanting to support Russia and freely deal economically with Europe. It expands sanctions on Russia's bad acts directly to its main supporter. It's a bold move for Poland to make, to thumb its nose at China and shows Europe it will do what is necessary while the EU dithers.

It's very disrespectful of you to imply that Xi is an idiot.
Xi fucking told you, that he does non buy your conspiracy theories about "Russia bad, Ukraine good"
China's interest is to have Russia ruled by Russians, not by Americans.

Xi's looking the other way for Russia is solely for China's own self-interest in pushing localized geographic supremacy (not the US didn't do such things with the Monroe Doctrine). China are not fans of Russia. They are just less of fans of the West (see 19th century).

And US neocons are looking the other way because they are such good people?