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Charlie Kirk shot in Utah

You're projecting.

I'm not crying about the results of the trial.
Do you even know what "projecting" means?

Yes. I do.

But if you'd like to argue definitions, provide one so we can discuss it.

I used projecting in reference to TSwizzle's either-or way of thinking; I was saying he was projecting that mindset onto me. But I could have said he had constructed a strawman argument, which I suppose is what you think I mislabeled.
I am attempting to correct your misconceptions about it and about the events in Kenosha by providing facts and accounts from reliable sources.
LMAO. You and your Ilk are doing the opposite - you are promulgating falsehoods about this case.

List the falsehoods you believe you have identified in my posts and provide quotes or post numbers so everyone can see what you're talking about.
I think getting the facts straight is important,
Indeed. So why don't you start?
Way ahead of you.

If you have more facts for everyone to share, provide them and tell us where you got them so we can check your sources.
 
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Seriously, Elixir, do you even care that you're now advocating for outright murder?
Seriously little girl, I don’t care that I’m doing that or anything else I’m not doing.
Why are you so dishonest? Your parents must be real creeps.
 
Emily thinks self defense is plenty of reason to kill people if they feel threatened by them. Unless it’s a right wing nutball punk murderer she is defending, then if someone who the murderer threatened murders him, it’s murder.

Hypocritical twerps are already running the goobermint Emmerz I’m sure they’re be please to have you on their team ; you’ll fit right in.
 
Some are; some are not. If you were to say, pit the average healthy 17 year old male against an average healthy 28-30 year old male in say, a fist fight or say, a boxing match, the older person would win.
Being mature and being at the pinnacle of physical abilities is not the same thing. And physically and mentally, 17 year olds and 18 year olds are virtually indistinguishable. The only major difference is legal.
Surely you don’t think the star quarterback of an high school football team is physically as mature as his brother who is the star quarterback on his university football team?
Sports ability is more than just physical ability, and quarterback is a position where older athletes can thrive specifically because experience can make up for declining physical abilities more than some other sports or even positions in American football.
A lot of 17 year old boys still do not need to shave and have pretty undeveloped musculature. A lot of 17 year girls have very small breasts and a few have not yet started to menstruate. Most still struggle with acne. Some of the bits still are undergoing voice changes.
17 year olds who don't need to shave or do not yet menstruate are pretty rare. But yes, development is a bell curve. There are always outliers. But outliers do not make the rule. If there is a woman who does not reach menarche by 22, that does not mean we should set adulthood at that age. And about your point about peak physical ability, if peak muscular development for men is at 28 on average, that does not mean that this is the age where adulthood should begin.
Or maybe you mean capable of producing offspring? Having well developed secondary sexual characteristics? Are you a sock of Derec?
Why are you so obsessed with me?
We ‘decided’ that 18 was ‘adult’ so that we could draft 18 year olds to fight in wars.
Btw, what would be an ideal age of legal adulthood as far as you are concerned? Would you set the age of consent at that same age or lower? And would you call anybody attracted to anybody less than that age a "pedophile"? I.e. if you set the age at 21 or 25, is anybody attracted to 20 or 24 year olds a "pedophile" in your opinion?
 
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Emily thinks self defense is plenty of reason to kill people if they feel threatened by them. Unless it’s a right wing nutball punk murderer she is defending, then if someone who the murderer threatened murders him, it’s murder.

Hypocritical twerps are already running the goobermint Emmerz I’m sure they’re be please to have you on their team ; you’ll fit right in.
Obviously, you have a right to murder someone else at a protest for being nervous about your power to murder them, but God forbid you defend yourself against an ectopic pregnancy...
 
That’s silly. Revolvers hold 6 rounds while semiautomatics typically hold at least twice as many.
Again, your problem seems to be capacity, not the semi-auto status of the firearm. Your issue could be addressed by limiting magazine capacity to 6 or fewer rounds, couldn't it?
Yes, it could. But we aren't allowed to make any changes to guns in America, because it is all a camel nose under the tent to *echo* ban guns */echo*.
There's going to be opposition to anything other than completely unregulated guns. But just because one group of die-hard idiots is standing on the edge of the spectrum of views doesn't mean we can't use our brains and have a grown-up discussion of reasonable regulations that would be effective.
Umm.. yes, it does mean it when one entire political party is voting on legislation like those "die-hard idiots". We aren't talking as if the anti-gun legislation crowd is some small minority.
It's also counter-productive for you to be giving me shit about what someone else believes, instead of actually engaging with my view. There's a name for that kind of argument, you know.
"Giving you shit"? Jebus! Your view is messed up because you are under this bizarre thought that gun control reform is remotely possible, people just need to listen to you.

Sandy Hook was the end for me. I knew that when the NRA came out pre-emptively after all those elementary aged children were slaughtered, we didn't have a chance at any change in the near few decade future. Instead, they put labels on the windows on the outside of schools so that if a school massacre does happen, the responding officers know which room the dead children are in.
*Sigh* So what do you think the option is? Just throw your hands up and don't even try? Or jump to the complete opposite end and confiscate everyone's guns and just blatantly violate the constitution? How do you think that's going to work out? Because neither of those seems reasonable at all... so telling me that my views are messed up because I think there are some feasible steps we can take that aren't all or nothing seems both defeatist and dumb to me.

I do think that if proposals were made that are actually reasonable and not overly aggressive, as well as being paired with policies to actually address the criminal side of the problem, there could be some progress made. A whole lot of the proposals that have been made that were met with widespread opposition are because they're effectively punishing the law abiding gun owners for things that criminals did, while not addressing the criminals.

There's been legislation in the past that didn't meet much resistance, and it worked just fine. Like severely limiting full-auto and machine guns, short-barrelled shotguns, and even magazine limits. Just don't be dumb about how you go about it.
 
Your options facing down a semi-automatic are fewer than a revolver. Then there is the damage by the bullet.
Because six bullets from a pistol somehow do more damage than six bullets from a revolver? It takes the same amount of time to pull the trigger six times for both, you know that, don't you? Are you imagining that all revolvers are old-west single actions?
My meager understanding of magazines for semi-automatic weapons is that 6 bullets is the minimum number in a magazine. Depending on whether the weapon is a handgun or a rifle, magazines can hold much more than 6 bullets. Some revolvers can hold up to 9 bullets (at least that is my understanding).

My point is that your response ignores the basic point that semi-automatic weapons typically have a larger capacity for bullets which allows a shooter to shoot MORE BULLETS than the typical revolver. More bullets mean more potential damage.
That might be your point, not sure it's Jimmy's point.

In your case, the issue is capacity... which has virtually nothing at all to do with the firearm being semi-automatic.
That’s silly. Revolvers hold 6 rounds while semiautomatics typically hold at least twice as many.
Again, your problem seems to be capacity, not the semi-auto status of the firearm. Your issue could be addressed by limiting magazine capacity to 6 or fewer rounds, couldn't it?
The semi-auto process is the problem because of the ease of reloading and the capacity. Limiting capacity would require more intrusive inspections/enforcement.
Again, that's not something inherent to semi-auto. That's a result of magazine being easy to remove and replace (actually not much faster than speedloaders for revolvers) and capacity.

You could arguably reduce capacity to 6 and require a more complex process for replacing the magazine, and it would end up being slower than a revolver with speedloaders.

Look, I get what your objective is - reduce the number of rounds that can be discharged in a short amount of time, and increase the amount of time it takes to reload. I support that objective. I just don't think your strategy will work the way you think it will. I think you're looking at the wrong problem to solve. To get to the desired objective, you need to identify the actual problems that need to be overcome, and design a strategy that addresses those problems.
 
Yes. Under 18, by law. Under 30 or so if one is thinking of emotional development.
PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMMATURE

Are you with a straight face asserting that a 17 year old human is NOT physically mature?
Some are; some are not. If you were to say, pit the average healthy 17 year old male against an average healthy 28-30 year old male in say, a fist fight or say, a boxing match, the older person would win. Surely you don’t think the star quarterback of an high school football team is physically as mature as his brother who is the star quarterback on his university football team? Same for most competitions requiring skill and strength. On average, a 25-30 year old woman would be more physically ( and emotionally and socially and financially) able to carry a fetus to term and deliver safely.

A lot of 17 year old boys still do not need to shave and have pretty undeveloped musculature. A lot of 17 year girls have very small breasts and a few have not yet started to menstruate. Most still struggle with acne. Some of the boys still are undergoing voice changes.

If you consider emotional stability and maturity, very few 17 year olds are as ‘mature’ as their counterparts parts who are 10 years older or even 5 years older.

Certainly individuals in their mid twenties and above are better equipped to become parents, physically, emotionally, financially.

It’s almost as though being 17 or 18 isn’t the same as reaching full physical, cognitive, psychological or emotional maturity.

Huh.

Or maybe you mean capable of producing offspring? Having well developed secondary sexual characteristics? Are you a sock of Derec?

We ‘decided’ that 18 was ‘adult’ so that we could draft 18 year olds to fight in wars. No one comes back from war without some measure of PTSD. If they are fortunate, that’s the worst of it—not in any way minimizing the ravages of PTSD, which can be long lasting. But the ones who suffer the most, on average, are the very young ones, who have not fully matured, emotionally or psychologically,
This is a stupid argument, and I'm done with it. It's absurd to pretend that a post-pubescent human is more like a pre-pubscent human than like a more-post-pubescent human. It's as dumb as arguing that a fresh-from-the-chrysalis butterfly is more like a caterpillar than like a butterfly whose wings have finished drying.

You've got some emotion or political stake in this. Fine, whatever. I don't. I just think it's beyond reason to ignore how our biological processes and development work in order to try to bolster your emotional position.
 
Yes. Under 18, by law. Under 30 or so if one is thinking of emotional development.
PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMMATURE

Are you with a straight face asserting that a 17 year old human is NOT physically mature?
Their outward appearance might not change much after 17 but their brain is still developing, which in turn is reflected in their behavior. Current medical research indicates those changes are pretty much complete at 25 years of age but might take a bit longer in some individuals.
Yes, I'm aware. Thus the term "physiologically".
 
ITT: people who don't believe physiological brain development is physiological, making complete asses out of themselves.
 
Yes. Under 18, by law. Under 30 or so if one is thinking of emotional development.
PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMMATURE

Are you with a straight face asserting that a 17 year old human is NOT physically mature?
Their outward appearance might not change much after 17 but their brain is still developing, which in turn is reflected in their behavior. Current medical research indicates those changes are pretty much complete at 25 years of age but might take a bit longer in some individuals.
Yes, I'm aware. Thus the term "physiologically".
Brain isn’t physiologically?
 
Are you just now catching on to the whole open carry is a bad thing idea?
No. I do not know if you are mixing me up with somebody else, but I was never a proponent of open carry.
I remember seeing what appeared to an assault like rifle in a car waiting to go into the parade of cars leaving the Jayland Walker service. Wasn't happy to see that.
What do you mean?
What do you mean what do you mean? These sorts of guns have no place in civilized society.
Btw, Jayland Walker shot at police during the car chase. That the idiot Akron politicians made his family millionaires is unconscionable!
Jayland Walker made bad choices that night. The bigger issue is two fold. One, was it necessary to plug 46 or so bullet holes into him (the shooting was grossly excessive, and was evidence for why allowing people in a high speed chase should be there to contain, not detain. Secondly, OMG he might have a gun. The police groups supported of all of this pro-gun legislation in the state of Ohio... then dare to complain about how it isn't making them safe?

Regarding Akron officials that you are bad mouthing, they did an admirable of job of managing a volatile situation. Allowing people to protest, however, closing off access to cars and reducing the capacity for protests to get ugly. And they also had a curfew in downtown as well. The damage from the anger of the Walker shooting was relatively low in part because the "idiot Akron politicians" allowed people to be heard but didn't provide an easy mechanism for hooligans to fuck things up.
Why do folks mock people for not liking open carry, and then point to this situation as an example as to why open carry is stupid, particularly in an urban (or suburban) setting.
I do not like open carry myself, but we should be consistent. You can't support left-wingers and blacks open carrying, and even occupying territory like in Seattle and Atlanta, but object to somebody carrying a rifle to protect a business from left-wing arsonists and looters.
What do you want from me? Or any of us really? It's legal. I have to live with it. You want me to fly out to these protests and ring a bell and yell "shame!"?
So, people would be justified to "blow [the] fucking heads off" all the armed leftist protesters, right?
Are there that many?
Yes, there have been that many. Especially in 2020. "Not Fucking Around Coalition" protested in places like Georgia (Ahmad Arbury) and Kentucky (Breonna Taylor). New Black Panthers also have armed protests. Antifa/#BLM occupied the "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" for weeks. In Atlanta, the area around the Wendy's (that they also burned down) where drunk driver Rayshard Brooks was killed was also occupied by armed "protesters", and they murdered an 8-year old girl in the process. And in Austin, a leftist protester Garrett Foster was carrying a AK47 and had his "fucking head" blown off because another man, Daniel Perry, felt threatened. Was that justified as well?
Okay, so it isn't that common. It should be less than that, but it isn't that common.
 
Guns are like drugs. Probation does not work. You have to work on why people have the need.
 
Yes. Under 18, by law. Under 30 or so if one is thinking of emotional development.
PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMMATURE

Are you with a straight face asserting that a 17 year old human is NOT physically mature?
Their outward appearance might not change much after 17 but their brain is still developing, which in turn is reflected in their behavior. Current medical research indicates those changes are pretty much complete at 25 years of age but might take a bit longer in some individuals.
Yes, I'm aware. Thus the term "physiologically".
Does the term "physiologically" refer to physical things like brain structures in the prefrontal cortex, or not?
 
That’s silly. Revolvers hold 6 rounds while semiautomatics typically hold at least twice as many.
Again, your problem seems to be capacity, not the semi-auto status of the firearm. Your issue could be addressed by limiting magazine capacity to 6 or fewer rounds, couldn't it?
Yes, it could. But we aren't allowed to make any changes to guns in America, because it is all a camel nose under the tent to *echo* ban guns */echo*.
There's going to be opposition to anything other than completely unregulated guns. But just because one group of die-hard idiots is standing on the edge of the spectrum of views doesn't mean we can't use our brains and have a grown-up discussion of reasonable regulations that would be effective.
Umm.. yes, it does mean it when one entire political party is voting on legislation like those "die-hard idiots". We aren't talking as if the anti-gun legislation crowd is some small minority.
It's also counter-productive for you to be giving me shit about what someone else believes, instead of actually engaging with my view. There's a name for that kind of argument, you know.
"Giving you shit"? Jebus! Your view is messed up because you are under this bizarre thought that gun control reform is remotely possible, people just need to listen to you.

Sandy Hook was the end for me. I knew that when the NRA came out pre-emptively after all those elementary aged children were slaughtered, we didn't have a chance at any change in the near few decade future. Instead, they put labels on the windows on the outside of schools so that if a school massacre does happen, the responding officers know which room the dead children are in.
*Sigh* So what do you think the option is?
Pretty much just Grief.
Just throw your hands up and don't even try?
President Reagan was nearly killed, a country music concert was slaughtered, schools across America had children mowed down, Donald fucking Trump was nearly murdered... and the gun rights people say... let me get the quote right...
Charlie Kirk said:
I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year, so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God given rights. That is a prudent deal.
A prudent deal. Well, I can't prove him wrong because some guy thought they didn't think the rules of law applied to him, he got himself a gun, and he took Kirk down. He shot him in front a large group of people and people got to get a bonus of getting traumatized as they witnessed the whole thing. And what was the message after his premeditated murder? Let's bring American back to the 1950s!

So no. I don't see hope. I don't see a path forward. I don't see a single thing that can be done.
Or jump to the complete opposite end and confiscate everyone's guns and just blatantly violate the constitution?
I'm a Jeffersonian. I don't believe the coat that I had as a child should be expected to work for me as an adult. I don't believe the Constitution as written in the 18th Century is to be held in such a manner that reasonable thinking is no longer required when considering what it means. Yes, I know Madison won out, and a certain rigidity to the Constitution has a great deal of merit. But when the US as a nation is enduring something that isn't occurring in all of the other first world nations, one has to wonder, is that what the Founding Fathers intended? Fuck no!

Does that mean we have to then create a false dichotomy? Not really, but you can be your typical self.
How do you think that's going to work out? Because neither of those seems reasonable at all... so telling me that my views are messed up because I think there are some feasible steps we can take that aren't all or nothing seems both defeatist and dumb to me.
That, let's take a middle path (which you didn't actually invent by the way) gets filed under camel nose by gun-rights activists. It won't go anywhere.
 
Yes. Under 18, by law. Under 30 or so if one is thinking of emotional development.
PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMMATURE

Are you with a straight face asserting that a 17 year old human is NOT physically mature?
Their outward appearance might not change much after 17 but their brain is still developing, which in turn is reflected in their behavior. Current medical research indicates those changes are pretty much complete at 25 years of age but might take a bit longer in some individuals.
Yes, I'm aware. Thus the term "physiologically".

The brain is physiological.
 
Indeed. I wish I could find my old pal Travis Haley’s video of changing semi auto handgun mags - less than a second between the last shot of one mag and the first shot from the next.
A skilled person with a speedloader could reload a revolver almost as fast.

Also, why is reloading even being brought up? The original statement I was replying was about having a semiauto gun pointed at you.
I agree, actually. But people get pissed/anxious when someone points a semi auto weapon at them.
In that situation, one bullet is all it takes, and a revolver is just as deadly. Even more so, depending on caliber. A .25 ACP semiauto vs. a .45 Magnum revolver for example.
According to your response, there is no need for semi- automatic weaponry. So banning them is not a real issue.
 
Your options facing down a semi-automatic are fewer than a revolver. Then there is the damage by the bullet.
Because six bullets from a pistol somehow do more damage than six bullets from a revolver? It takes the same amount of time to pull the trigger six times for both, you know that, don't you? Are you imagining that all revolvers are old-west single actions?
My meager understanding of magazines for semi-automatic weapons is that 6 bullets is the minimum number in a magazine. Depending on whether the weapon is a handgun or a rifle, magazines can hold much more than 6 bullets. Some revolvers can hold up to 9 bullets (at least that is my understanding).

My point is that your response ignores the basic point that semi-automatic weapons typically have a larger capacity for bullets which allows a shooter to shoot MORE BULLETS than the typical revolver. More bullets mean more potential damage.
That might be your point, not sure it's Jimmy's point.

In your case, the issue is capacity... which has virtually nothing at all to do with the firearm being semi-automatic.
That’s silly. Revolvers hold 6 rounds while semiautomatics typically hold at least twice as many.
Again, your problem seems to be capacity, not the semi-auto status of the firearm. Your issue could be addressed by limiting magazine capacity to 6 or fewer rounds, couldn't it?
The semi-auto process is the problem because of the ease of reloading and the capacity. Limiting capacity would require more intrusive inspections/enforcement.
Again, that's not something inherent to semi-auto. That's a result of magazine being easy to remove and replace (actually not much faster than speedloaders for revolvers) and capacity.

You could arguably reduce capacity to 6 and require a more complex process for replacing the magazine, and it would end up being slower than a revolver with speedloaders.
I addressed the problem with that.
 
I'm a Jeffersonian. I don't believe the coat that I had as a child should be expected to work for me as an adult. I don't believe the Constitution as written in the 18th Century is to be held in such a manner that reasonable thinking is no longer required when considering what it means. Yes, I know Madison won out, and a certain rigidity to the Constitution has a great deal of merit. But when the US as a nation is enduring something that isn't occurring in all of the other first world nations, one has to wonder, is that what the Founding Fathers intended?
I doubt that any of the Founding Fathers could even imagine a revolver (45 years in their future when the 2nd was ratified), or had ever seen a breach loading gun (the first breech loading rifles were a novelty at the time, and the first widely adopted design was 28 years in the future*).

They could no more have anticipated a self loading** handgun or a fully automatic (machine) gun, than they could have imagined a Carrier Battle Group for their navy.

It's probable that they were familiar with (muzzle loading) rifles, with a rate of fire in expert hands of maybe two shots per minute.

The main "arms" they would have been thinking about would have been smoothbore flintlocks, expert rate of fire maybe five aimed shots per minute (I have seen someone fire six shots in a minute from a Brown Bess, the arm with which the US Founding Fathers were likely most familiar as it was the most commonly used firearm by both sides during the Revolutionary War; It was a specially staged display for which the shooter had spent years in training, and "aimed" may be a touch generous - the shots all went downrange, so the audience was safe, but the targets weren't in much danger either).

When the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, a lone gunman was a minor threat - a man with a sword or a knife could do more harm, more easily.

A lone gunman could get off a shot at a crowd, but would likely be mobbed before he could fire again. Effective range against a man-sized target is in the order of 100-150 yards, and if they were well trained and didn't panic, a lone gunman might be able to get a second shot away, before the mob rushing him arrived to beat the crap out of him and take his musket away.

In that period, effective sustained fire was possible only from a group of gunmen acting in concert - a "well ordered militia" if you would. While some were re-loading, others could be firing. It took discipline, practice, and cooperation. Not just some incel with a self-loading rifle and a high capacity magazine, who can fire as rapidly as he can operate the trigger.

The modern interpretation of the Second Amendment is utterly absurd in the light of the state of firearms technology at the time it was ratified, vs the state of the art today.

I struggle to see why*** it wouldn't be perfectly constitutional to limit firearms ownership (without severe restrictions) only to designs that were extant in 1791 - smoothbore flintlocks, muzzle loaded with black powder only. If you want anything else, get a licence, join a gun club (and keep the gun at the club in secure storage when not in use), or join the national guard, or the army.

You already have to pretty much do that if you want to legally fire a fully automatic weapon (or an artillery piece), so the precedent for restricting certain technologies is already in place.





* Breech loading pistols had been around for a century and a half, but weren't quick to load or fire, they were designed so cavalrymen could reload without dismounting. Early models were matchlocks, slow, inaccurate, and hard to use, but good for scaring the peasants, who had never heard a sound louder than church bells before they were drafted into the army.

** The term "semi-automatic" usually means "self loading"; Personally I always preferred the latter as less confusing.

*** Apart, obviously, from ingrained and institutionalised stupidity, masquerading as a 'human right'.
 
We don't allow people to own nukes too (another thing the founders wouldn't have imagined). Does that "infringe on a basic right"?
 
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