Yet another war, this time with Iran

[DrZoidberg]

Israel was invaded by 5 countries on its 1st day of independence and you claim those countries are hurt that Israel defeated them? Diddums.

Not only was this last century but this was wayyy back last century. Piss weak argument.

I bunch of bullys pick on a kid. The teachers break it up and put the bullies in detention. From detention the bullies continously scream out the window that the moment they come out they will murder the kid who was bullied.

The Arabs have been in detention since 1948. The biggest factor keeping Israel alive is US support

No, it wasn't last century. It never stopped. The Hamas attack of 2023 was just the last one in a string of attacks. It never stopped.

Stop downplaying Arab aggression against Israel. The tenacity of their hatred for Israel is remarkable. As is what they are willing to sacrifice just to keep the conflict going

 

[aupmanyav]

Precisely the point. Africans slaughtering Africans interests no one.

What can India do? Christians fighting Muslims. One tribe fighting another. Only their mistakes will teach them.

The British just wanted to get out. It was the UN.

British had the responsibility. Got out of Palestine as they got out of India, creating fractures.

 

[aupmanyav]

And finally, Trump is an authoritarian populist with strong fascist tendencies.

So, bide with the times. Trump also will pass. Less than 3 years now.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And finally, Trump is an authoritarian populist with strong fascist tendencies.

So, bide with the times. Trump also will pass. Less than 3 years now.

That's not necessarily true. Trump might be the start of a new era. Post WW2 US international politics is very much the result of USA being the unthreatened world hegemon. There was nothing that could, realistically, threaten it. So they could afford to be very generous. Being Indian, you of all people, should be aware of that the western countries are no longer as economically dominant today as we were in the 1960'ies. The extreme economic growth of the developing world 1990 to 2010 ca (especially India and China) means that from Obama onward USA had less room to be generous. This is something (and probably the only thing) Trump has been correct about. When India and China no longer have to play nice they won't. That's the nature of power.

With the US economy being as relatively strong as it was any economic freedom in the world would automatically benefit USA (more than other countries). That is not necessarily true anymore. If someone has the biggest guns but not the most money, they'll soon have the most money, one way or another. I think that's where we're at. That's what Trump is a symptom of

 

[aupmanyav]

When India and China no longer have to play nice they won't. That's the nature of power.

India will always play nice. Of that I can assure you. Not being nice is not the way we are raised.
"Samskaras"

 

[DrZoidberg]

When India and China no longer have to play nice they won't. That's the nature of power.

India will always play nice. Of that I can assure you. Not being nice is not the way we are raised.

What I am hearing is that we shouldn't ask Pakistans opinion on this

 

[aupmanyav]

You may ask Pakistanis too. They pine for a leader like Modi.
Ask a Pakistani friend, if you have one. Don't go by newspaper reports.

 

[Toni]

Seems extra pointless in a forum for atheists.

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam. We also see a growing influence of Islam on the DSA-wing of the Democratic Party. This makes me very concerned for the 2026 Midterms and also going forward to 2028.

Not having a raging hard on to destroy Islam is not actually the same as having a ‘soft spot for Islam.’

I’m neutral on Islam because I know enough to realize that, like every other religion, there are destructive radical violent sects as well as the majority who really just want to live in peace and harmony, with a more live and let live world view.

I’m considerably more enraged by pseudo Christians and White Nationalist Christians as well as the ultra conservative LDS branches that practice forced polygamy involving children.

I don’t paint all Christians ( or Jews or Hindus or Sikhs, etc.) with the same brush. Nor do I do that with Muslims.

I would love specific references to the LDS shit involving child polygamy.

For reasons.

Also, how far from "mainstream" LDS can a church go? Aren't they something like mail-order churches, where you get materials and a central authority essentially just preaches at you long-distance via Watchtower publications?

Because of the centralization of literature I was under the impression that pretty much all their churches were about the same level of crazy? Then, I've only seen how LDS churches behave based on the groups I've encountered.

Lots of info re: girls being forced into marriages with elders. NOT mainstream LDS! The so called Fundamentalist Church. of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints lead by the now imprisoned for life Warren Jeffs.

Warren Jeffs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In September 2007, Jeffs was convicted of two counts of rape as an accomplice,

for which he was sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years to life in Utah State Prison. The conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court in 2010 due to flawed jury instructions.

He was extradited to Texas where he was found guilty of sexual assault of a minor for raping a 15-year-old child bride; and aggravated sexual assault against a child for raping a 12-year-old child bride; for which he was sentenced to life in prison, plus 20 years and fined $10,000.

 

[Jarhyn]

Seems extra pointless in a forum for atheists.

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam. We also see a growing influence of Islam on the DSA-wing of the Democratic Party. This makes me very concerned for the 2026 Midterms and also going forward to 2028.

Not having a raging hard on to destroy Islam is not actually the same as having a ‘soft spot for Islam.’

I’m neutral on Islam because I know enough to realize that, like every other religion, there are destructive radical violent sects as well as the majority who really just want to live in peace and harmony, with a more live and let live world view.

I’m considerably more enraged by pseudo Christians and White Nationalist Christians as well as the ultra conservative LDS branches that practice forced polygamy involving children.

I don’t paint all Christians ( or Jews or Hindus or Sikhs, etc.) with the same brush. Nor do I do that with Muslims.

I would love specific references to the LDS shit involving child polygamy.

For reasons.

Also, how far from "mainstream" LDS can a church go? Aren't they something like mail-order churches, where you get materials and a central authority essentially just preaches at you long-distance via Watchtower publications?

Because of the centralization of literature I was under the impression that pretty much all their churches were about the same level of crazy? Then, I've only seen how LDS churches behave based on the groups I've encountered.

Lots of info re: girls being forced into marriages with elders. NOT mainstream LDS! The so called Fundamentalist Church. of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints lead by the now imprisoned for life Warren Jeffs.

Warren Jeffs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In September 2007, Jeffs was convicted of two counts of rape as an accomplice,

for which he was sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years to life in Utah State Prison. The conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court in 2010 due to flawed jury instructions.

He was extradited to Texas where he was found guilty of sexual assault of a minor for raping a 15-year-old child bride; and aggravated sexual assault against a child for raping a 12-year-old child bride; for which he was sentenced to life in prison, plus 20 years and fined $10,000.

Oh, I'm confused I think! I was confusing LDS/Mormons with JWs.

I know the Mormons have a slightly more traditional church structure than JWs, who are all "mail-order".

Its just so easy to confuse these wacky fringe Christian cults with one another...

 

[Toni]

Seems extra pointless in a forum for atheists.

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam. We also see a growing influence of Islam on the DSA-wing of the Democratic Party. This makes me very concerned for the 2026 Midterms and also going forward to 2028.

Not having a raging hard on to destroy Islam is not actually the same as having a ‘soft spot for Islam.’

I’m neutral on Islam because I know enough to realize that, like every other religion, there are destructive radical violent sects as well as the majority who really just want to live in peace and harmony, with a more live and let live world view.

I’m considerably more enraged by pseudo Christians and White Nationalist Christians as well as the ultra conservative LDS branches that practice forced polygamy involving children.

I don’t paint all Christians ( or Jews or Hindus or Sikhs, etc.) with the same brush. Nor do I do that with Muslims.

I would love specific references to the LDS shit involving child polygamy.

For reasons.

Also, how far from "mainstream" LDS can a church go? Aren't they something like mail-order churches, where you get materials and a central authority essentially just preaches at you long-distance via Watchtower publications?

Because of the centralization of literature I was under the impression that pretty much all their churches were about the same level of crazy? Then, I've only seen how LDS churches behave based on the groups I've encountered.

Lots of info re: girls being forced into marriages with elders. NOT mainstream LDS! The so called Fundamentalist Church. of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints lead by the now imprisoned for life Warren Jeffs.

Warren Jeffs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In September 2007, Jeffs was convicted of two counts of rape as an accomplice,

for which he was sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years to life in Utah State Prison. The conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court in 2010 due to flawed jury instructions.

He was extradited to Texas where he was found guilty of sexual assault of a minor for raping a 15-year-old child bride; and aggravated sexual assault against a child for raping a 12-year-old child bride; for which he was sentenced to life in prison, plus 20 years and fined $10,000.

Oh, I'm confused I think! I was confusing LDS/Mormons with JWs.

I know the Mormons have a slightly more traditional church structure than JWs, who are all "mail-order".

Its just so easy to confuse these wacky fringe Christian cults with one another...

My sister joined the LDS church years ago and is no longer a member. But that’s how I know or have any interest in knowing anything about the LDS church. For a brief amount of time, she tried to convert us. Obviously not successful. Not much friction because of it because we lived hundreds of miles apart and it was the olden days when there was such a thing as ‘long distance’ and such phone calls cost money—which I didn’t have.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Saw a report from Reuters about Lebanon and Hezbollah, and it gave me a really bad feeling about where this might lead the fragile nation. This provides a bit of the piece. Some of the Lebanese are angry at the Government for making any agreement with Israel. This could provide a trigger point for Hezbollah to reassert itself against the government.

Things are becoming complicated with Israel insisting that Hezbollah is open for targeting. link

Israel has said its sporadic bombing attacks are “self-defense” permitted under the ceasefire, and IDF troops occupying southern Lebanon have continued attacks against alleged militants and their infrastructure.

The talks have been a tough sell for Lebanese leaders, with Prime Minister Nawaf Salam meeting Friday with a Hezbollah ally, Speaker Nabih Berri, in what appeared to be an effort to garner support for the negotiations. The group has long opposed direct talks with Israel, with supporters gathering outside government headquarters on the eve of the first round of talks in mid-April calling for Salam’s ouster. But after the initial ceasefire, Hezbollah’s anger toward the Lebanese government seemed to die down as many of its supporters returned to their homes after six weeks of displacement.

Mahmoud Qamati, vice president of Hezbollah’s Political Council, said in a statement Thursday before Trump’s announcement that the militant group rejected any direct negotiations with Israel and that it would not accept Israel’s carving out of a buffer zone in southern Lebanon, pledging to continue its operations “until complete liberation is achieved.”

This is going to strain the Lebanese Government.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, there's most likely better ways to help transition Iran to democracy. But doing nothing isn't going to help either. At least Trump is signalling to Iran that their behaviour has limits. Taking out their leaders was a good move.

Good move? Due to Trump and Netanyahu, Iran's global influence hasn't been this big since Cyrus. Somehow, the US/Israel militaries managed to kill the Theocratic leader of Iran... and made Iran more powerful. You want to call that a good move, so be it, I can't fix stupid.

How has Iran's global influence grown?

Power is the ability to make others do stuff they'd rather not. Iran has had limited success making anyone do anything, even after closing the straight of Hormuz. USA has lost soft power. But Iran has lost even more. Everyone hates Iran now. If the rest of the Middle-East previously hated Iran, its even more now.

Previously Iran's leaders felt they could threaten others with little repurcussions. Now they learned they're not untouchable.

But sure, chances are this war might not change anything. I'm not going to defend Trump's/USA's methods. But I aprove of the attempt. And good riddance of the ayatollah

 

[Politesse]

But Iran has lost even more. Everyone hates Iran now.

Someone only watches his own country's news, lol!

 

[Derec]

Derec, did you slam your head into concrete recently and actually believe Ziprhead is pro-IRGC?

Not exactly pro-IRGC, but he is reposting their propaganda.

Right now IRGC is a broken clock at the right time of day.

No, they are not. Maybe they should remove the beam from their eye before they worry about the speck in America's.

 

[Derec]

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam.

. Really? Who and how soft?

On this forum there have definitely been posters saying nonsense like how Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

We also see a growing influence of Islam on the DSA-wing of the Democratic Party. This makes me very concerned for the 2026 Midterms and also going forward to 2028.

You are using “we” in the royal/ chicken little sense?

More like editorial "we". Certainly not "Chicken Little".
Are you seriously going to deny that Muslims, who comprise about 1% of US population, are greatly overrepresented on the left fringe of the Democratic Party, as well as the DSA?
We have Zohran Mamdani, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar (those two are 50% of the OG Socialist Squad), Keith Ellison, Abdul El Sayed, among many others. The streamer being hailed as the "Joe Rogan of the Left" is a Turkish Muslim who has praised Hamas. Michigan Dems have nominated Amir Makled, a Hezbollah supporter, for UM regent.

 

[Derec]

Not having a raging hard on to destroy Islam is not actually the same as having a ‘soft spot for Islam.’

I do not have any hate boners, but at the same time I think we need to resist growing influence of political Islam in the West, including the US. Movement Leftism disagrees, and are often found on the side of political Islam and against Western culture and society.

I’m considerably more enraged by pseudo Christians and White Nationalist Christians as well as the ultra conservative LDS branches that practice forced polygamy involving children.

Exactly. You think Christianity is worse than Islam. Even limiting yourself to one issue, there is a lot of child marriage in the Islamic world, far more than in a very tiny Mormon breakaway sect. And yet you are only "neutral" on Islam and cannot bring yourself to oppose it.

I don’t paint all Christians ( or Jews or Hindus or Sikhs, etc.) with the same brush. Nor do I do that with Muslims.

But you are far more critical of Christianity than Islam, despite the latter being a far more oppressive force.

 

[Toni]

Not having a raging hard on to destroy Islam is not actually the same as having a ‘soft spot for Islam.’

I do not have any hate boners, but at the same time I think we need to resist growing influence of political Islam in the West, including the US. Movement Leftism disagrees, and are often found on the side of political Islam and against Western culture and society.

I’m considerably more enraged by pseudo Christians and White Nationalist Christians as well as the ultra conservative LDS branches that practice forced polygamy involving children.

Exactly. You think Christianity is worse than Islam. Even limiting yourself to one issue, there is a lot of child marriage in the Islamic world, far more than in a very tiny Mormon breakaway sect. And yet you are only "neutral" on Islam and cannot bring yourself to oppose it.

I don’t paint all Christians ( or Jews or Hindus or Sikhs, etc.) with the same brush. Nor do I do that with Muslims.

But you are far more critical of Christianity than Islam, despite the latter being a far more oppressive force.

No, Derec, I do not think that Christianity is worse than Islam. I’m against all religious extremism, particularly when it intersects or attempts to intersect with political structures.

Currently in the US we are dealing with rising Christian Nationalism which is about as far away from actual Christianity as the Nazi Party, and the KKK which like to claim to be Christian.

I have no interest in whether any individual follows any religious tradition, including none, full stop. That is between them and their version of God.

The United States was formed with one of the guiding principles being separation of church and state. I believe in that principle with every fiber of my being. Mixing any religion with public policy or government is a perversion of that religion and that public governance and extremely destructive to all.

I am critical of so called Christian Nationalism. It is an abomination to Christianity and to decent society. For a group that so vocally opposes shariah law, they sure do mimic its worst tenets.

I don’t think the Catholic Chirch should determine what birth control options are available or whether or not a woman must carry a pregnancy. I don’t think that Judaism or Islam should determine food policy. I don’t think that Buddhists should, either.

I defend blanket attacks on Islam because those are based on ignorant and sometimes racist xenophobic assessments of the worst, most radical elements. I feel the same about certain sects of every religion: the radicalism of any faith—including no religion is destructive.

You lead with Muslim or Islamist this or that whenever you criticize any politician who is Muslim. You even condemn a Muslim majority town for electing Muslims to public office. I’m not fond of Ilhan Omar myself but it has nothing to do with her heritage or religious background. If you want to criticize a politician-criticize the politician and not their sex, gender, race or religion,

 

[laughing dog]

Many leftist atheists, including on this forum, have a soft-spot for Islam.

. Really? Who and how soft?

On this forum there have definitely been posters saying nonsense like how Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

How is that having a "soft-spot"? At this time, in the US, Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

We also see a growing influence of Islam on the DSA-wing of the Democratic Party. This makes me very concerned for the 2026 Midterms and also going forward to 2028.

You are using “we” in the royal/ chicken little sense?

More like editorial "we". Certainly not "Chicken Little".

So, you mean "you".

Are you seriously going to deny that Muslims, who comprise about 1% of US population, are greatly overrepresented on the left fringe of the Democratic Party, as well as the DSA?
We have Zohran Mamdani, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar (those two are 50% of the OG Socialist Squad), Keith Ellison, Abdul El Sayed, among many others. The streamer being hailed as the "Joe Rogan of the Left" is a Turkish Muslim who has praised Hamas. Michigan Dems have nominated Amir Makled, a Hezbollah supporter, for UM regent.

Um, by definition the fringe left is a very small, has little direct influence on policy or life, and has accomplished little except to frighten people like you.

On the other hand, you don't seem terribly worried about white Christian nationalists who are greatly overrepresented on the fringe right of the Republican Party (you know, the one controlling the White House, both chambers of the Federal Government, and many state governments) and who have much greater direct influence over policy and life than the fringe left of the Democratic Party.

 

[laughing dog]

I definitely understand that some people, make and female, enjoy looking at images of naked people. I also understand ways that can be destructive towards people who do not choose to participate in porn or erotica. Myself? I’m agnostic. But Im not blind to some of the very destructive aspects. This has become particularly horrible re: young men who admire toxic masculinity stances such as believing that (young, attractive— no fatties!) women must make themselves available to them on demand. It’s the same sickness that allowed our country to eject a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS—twice!

If only we had EJECTED him.

 

[bilby]

How has Iran's global influence grown?

Power is the ability to make others do stuff they'd rather not.

...like run out of oil?

Closing the strait (note, it is not straight, it has a fairly sharp bend) is hugely influential, and by allowing certain vessels to pass, while prohibiting others, Iran has gained at least some degree of new influence over nations such as China and India (who between them constitute a quarter of the world), and are also able to bolster the Russian economy and strengthen that country's ties to Iran, which in turn allows Iran to rebuild her military.