Yet another war, this time with Iran

[aupmanyav]

Putin disputes your view because he has said he wants to reconstruct imperial Russian territory.

Not everything that is said should be taken that seriously. He neither has the resources nor the time to do that.
Perhaps the ganging made him say that. Modi, Putin, Xi, Trump are not immortals.

 

[aupmanyav]

It's a scenario that had a lot of facts behind it in the 1980s, but really not so much in the 2020s, for all that the decision makers of today grew up with the ideas of forty years ago.

Generals are always ready to fight the last war all over again. Politicians even more so.

Mutually Assured Destruction was an effective peacekeeper in a world where two superpowers dominated everything. Now that Russia has ceased to be even a plausible great power, things are much less simple, and nuclear doctrine has changed, whether we recognise the fact or not.

Russia is not USSR. Why are you harking about earlier times? At the moment Russia just wants peace and free trade.
Generals everywhere have to be ready to fight. Politicians may seem to do so. In practice things may be different. Why Trump has not started Iran-2?
There are other players in the game too, China, for example. Why should Europe always be a slave to US? They too are powerful. They have enough bombs and missiles to blast any country to pieces, including US. Britain and France have some (290+260) 550 bombs.

 

[barbos]

It's mind boggling how the west argue between themselves about what Russians think instead of simply asking said Russians.

Know any with a good and just moral code willing and able to speak freely about the Russian condition?

good moral code means supporting Yaroslav Hunka?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's a scenario that had a lot of facts behind it in the 1980s, but really not so much in the 2020s, for all that the decision makers of today grew up with the ideas of forty years ago.

Generals are always ready to fight the last war all over again. Politicians even more so.

Mutually Assured Destruction was an effective peacekeeper in a world where two superpowers dominated everything. Now that Russia has ceased to be even a plausible great power, things are much less simple, and nuclear doctrine has changed, whether we recognise the fact or not.

Russia is not USSR. Why are you harking about earlier times? At the moment Russia just wants peace and free trade.

Russia's attitude dates back to Catherine the Great and their desire to pretend that they are the next Rome. They certainly haven't lived up to the name, but you wouldn't know that with their incredibly unmatched self-assurance of their greatness.

There are other players in the game too, China, for example. Why should Europe always be a slave to US?

Technically we all got rich together after WWII. So, there is that.

 

[barbos]

Russia's attitude dates back to Catherine the Great and their desire to pretend that they are the next Rome.

Russia's attitude dates back to European assholes (Swedes, Poles, Germans, French, British) along with Turks constantly invading Russia. Catherine the Great was German in case you didn't know.
So blame her for saving you from Turks.
Reminded recent May 9 incident where german government asshole refused to answer a question about who liberated Europe from the Nazis.
Come to think of it and the only ones (from Europe) who did not try to invade must be Spanish and Portuguese, the rest one way or the other at some point in time invaded Russia.
And Spanish/Portuguese were busy fucking warmer places.
Historically, Europeans have been assholes. "Guns, Germs and steel" and all that.

 

[TV and credit cards]

It's mind boggling how the west argue between themselves about what Russians think instead of simply asking said Russians.

Know any with a good and just moral code willing and able to speak freely about the Russian condition?

good moral code means supporting Yaroslav Hunka?

More like acting only according to principles that you would want to become universal laws for everyone.
Given the near universal condemnation of Russian aggression against Ukraine, it should be glaringly apparent Russia's actions do not accord itself with any universally accepted moral code.

 

[barbos]

Given the near universal condemnation of Russian aggression against Ukraine,

Nazi and and neocon scum are not the whole universe. Most of the world is with Russia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Russia's attitude dates back to Catherine the Great and their desire to pretend that they are the next Rome.

Russia's attitude dates back to European assholes (Swedes, Poles, Germans, French, British) along with Turks constantly invading Russia. Catherine the Great was German in case you didn't know.

Uh huh. As I noted, the self-derived sense of Russian greatness that they are the next Rome is what drives the nonsense in barbos' posts, and it dates back a very long time. And with almost nothing to show for it. The best composer of all-time in Tchaikovsky, some really depressing literature, some ballet, and good size contributions in science, when the scientists weren't busy being purged that is, but otherwise, Russia/Soviet Union has been an underperformer.

Historically, Europeans have been assholes. "Guns, Germs and steel" and all that.

There is a reason the US didn't involve itself until late in the Great War. Europe had been at perpetual war for over a millenia. The horrors of WWII and the failure of the armistice of WWI would help drive the relative peace established afterwards. It certainly wasn't perfect but, it was the best the continent had seen.

 

[Gospel]

It’s the fear of soldiers returning in body bags, not nukes.

Side note: It’s widely believed that Israel has nuclear weapons, yet that still hasn’t stopped Iran from lobbing missiles at them. Just sayin.

 

[Bomb#20]

Reminded recent May 9 incident where german government asshole refused to answer a question about who liberated Europe from the Nazis.

The Japanese, duh!

(The Germans kept sharing their plans with Japanese diplomats, who kept dutifully radioing them back to Tokyo, using ciphers Americans kept breaking...)

 

[Politesse]

At the moment Russia just wants peace and free trade.

Russia has fought in nine wars during this century alone, two of which they started by invading a sovereign nation to seize territory.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Countries haven't sent troops to Ukraine. I think its the fear of nukes that's the reason

It’s the fear of soldiers returning in body bags, not nukes.

None of the ex Warsaw pact countries have an issue with that. They understand the importance of stopping Russia. The only reason they're not sending troops to Ukraine is because Putin has thrratened with nukes.

For the rest of Europe its a mixed bag. Basically, the more they feel threatened by Russia because of geography, the more they are willing to sacrifice. Be it weapons, money or troops.

Personally I think we should commit troops. Stop being pussies. The more the nuke threat works, the more it'll be used. So in order to make that threat to not be used, we need to ignore it. I think its the least dangerous option, long term

No troops yet from anyone suggests other countries have a problem with it.

Its Putins threat of nuclear war. Its just that.

The fact as NATO members, any attack (especially NATO) would be responded to with force by NATO, including nuclear weapons, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their decision-making or safety from Russia. Your insight into their thinking is certainly illuminating.

Putin has threatened with nuclear strikes any country who sends troops into Ukraine to help them. He did that and the response from European countries was to not send troops. And instead make it convenient for volonteers to fight in Ukraine and sending money and material. The Europeans are doing exactly the things Putin didn't warn them against with nukes.

Its anyones guess how the reasoning has been going in the parliaments. But Ukraine's military is corrupt and dysfunctional. It would obviously be to Ukraines benefit if the high tech hardware was manned by those already trained on them.

I find the idea that Putin's nuclear threat isn't the reason for the current situation... unlikely

 

[Shadowy Man]

It’s the fear of soldiers returning in body bags, not nukes.

Side note: It’s widely believed that Israel has nuclear weapons, yet that still hasn’t stopped Iran from lobbing missiles at them. Just sayin.

Makes you wonder the value of them. Can’t use them in war and they don’t act as a deterrent.

 

[barbos]

At the moment Russia just wants peace and free trade.

Russia has fought in nine wars during this century alone, two of which they started by invading a sovereign nation to seize territory.

Kaja, is that you?

 

[barbos]

Reminded recent May 9 incident where german government asshole refused to answer a question about who liberated Europe from the Nazis.

The Japanese, duh!

(The Germans kept sharing their plans with Japanese diplomats, who kept dutifully radioing them back to Tokyo, using ciphers Americans kept breaking...)

Fuck you and your stupid humour.

 

[laughing dog]

Putin disputes your view because he has said he wants to reconstruct imperial Russian territory.

Not everything that is said should be taken that seriously. He neither has the resources nor the time to do that.
Perhaps the ganging made him say that. Modi, Putin, Xi, Trump are not immortals.

Putin doesn’t have the time or resources to take Ukraine. Yet he is trying.

 

[laughing dog]

Countries haven't sent troops to Ukraine. I think its the fear of nukes that's the reason

It’s the fear of soldiers returning in body bags, not nukes.

None of the ex Warsaw pact countries have an issue with that. They understand the importance of stopping Russia. The only reason they're not sending troops to Ukraine is because Putin has thrratened with nukes.

For the rest of Europe its a mixed bag. Basically, the more they feel threatened by Russia because of geography, the more they are willing to sacrifice. Be it weapons, money or troops.

Personally I think we should commit troops. Stop being pussies. The more the nuke threat works, the more it'll be used. So in order to make that threat to not be used, we need to ignore it. I think its the least dangerous option, long term

No troops yet from anyone suggests other countries have a problem with it.

Its Putins threat of nuclear war. Its just that.

The fact as NATO members, any attack (especially NATO) would be responded to with force by NATO, including nuclear weapons, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their decision-making or safety from Russia. Your insight into their thinking is certainly illuminating.

Putin has threatened with nuclear strikes any country who sends troops into Ukraine to help them. He did that and the response from European countries was to not send troops. And instead make it convenient for volonteers to fight in Ukraine and sending money and material. The Europeans are doing exactly the things Putin didn't warn them against with nukes.

Its anyones guess how the reasoning has been going in the parliaments. But Ukraine's military is corrupt and dysfunctional. It would obviously be to Ukraines benefit if the high tech hardware was manned by those already trained on them.

I find the idea that Putin's nuclear threat isn't the reason for the current situation... unlikely

I understand why some people feel the need for a single cause explanation for a complex situation.

 

[bilby]

It's a scenario that had a lot of facts behind it in the 1980s, but really not so much in the 2020s, for all that the decision makers of today grew up with the ideas of forty years ago.

Generals are always ready to fight the last war all over again. Politicians even more so.

Mutually Assured Destruction was an effective peacekeeper in a world where two superpowers dominated everything. Now that Russia has ceased to be even a plausible great power, things are much less simple, and nuclear doctrine has changed, whether we recognise the fact or not.

Russia is not USSR.

Yes, that's pretty mych my whole point.

Why are you harking about earlier times?

I am asking why Dr Z is doing that.

At the moment Russia just wants peace and free trade.

That is so far from true as to be off yhe planet. If Russia wants peace, they could just withdraw from Ukraine. If they wanted peace, they could just not have attacked in the first place.

And if they want free trade, they could try complying with international law so that sanctions are able to be lifted. Everything you say they want is a nonsense, as it is contradicted by the fact that they invaded Ukraine.

What they want is peace, free trade, and the territory and people of a neighbouring country. The first two are not compatible with the third, and they chose poorly.

Generals everywhere have to be ready to fight. Politicians may seem to do so. In practice things may be different. Why Trump has not started Iran-2?

Why did he start Iran-1?

He has zero clue what he is doing, so expecting anyone else to have a clue is absurd.

There are other players in the game too, China, for example.

Indeed. They are biding their time, which seems wise in a world dominated by madmen. Why fight, when others are weakening themselves?

Why should Europe always be a slave to US?

It shouldn't, isn't, and won't be.

They too are powerful. They have enough bombs and missiles to blast any country to pieces, including US. Britain and France have some (290+260) 550 bombs.

Sure. But they are historically allies of the US, and that takes a while to break down, despite Trump's best efforts to do so. Give it a decade or two of ongoing MAGA madness, and a new Cold War between EU and US is a possibility. UK is a wild card, they have no money and no military strength left, except their nuclear weapons. Those weapons are unlikely to be placed under EU control any time soon, unless poverty forces the UK to rejoin the EU under far less favourable terms than those they held before they very stupidly left.

 

[bilby]

Historically, Europeans have been assholes.

Historically, humans have been assholes. Europeans are trying to improve; Russians are still revelling in their medieval might-makes-right mindset.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Reminded recent May 9 incident where german government asshole refused to answer a question about who liberated Europe from the Nazis.

The Japanese, duh!

(The Germans kept sharing their plans with Japanese diplomats, who kept dutifully radioing them back to Tokyo, using ciphers Americans kept breaking...)

There was a very good BBC program on the decryption.