Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Harry Bosch]

A stronger Russia would be an incredible resource trading partner, a hedge against China, and would better safeguard their nukes. The west desperately wants to trade with Russia. But stopping the war that they caused is issue number one.

But Europe aligned with US and are a part of NATO. How can they have good relations with Russia? Did Europe not help in destabilization in Ukraine?
Fun, "we did it in Yugoslavia, we will do it again in Ukraine".

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Again, just look at a map. The west wants trade with Russia and a hedge against our real threat, China. Russia is awash with natural resources, more than any country in the world. Before they invaded Ukraine, there were tons of trading agreements set up with Russia and trade routes. Have you ever heard of Nord Stream as one example. Most of the Eastern European countries are really bitter rivals with Ukraine. With family members in Poland, we follow Poland tightly. But the number one threat to prosperity for all the European countries is war with Russia. So of course, all the countries will band together against a common threat. The real threat to the west (maybe more of an economic threat) is China. The sooner Russia can be brought to the negotiating table to end this war the better it would be for all parties.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That proves my point - there is a choice.

Sometime there is none. Why did Israel attack Gaza? I don't think they did it for fun. Why did US attack Iran? Because they could. That was partly for oil and partly for fun.

Partly for fun? I'm not sure what news you have access to, but I assume that you heard of the Hamas attack of October 7?

Regarding the US attacking Iran, I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that Trump cares about Israel (could ever identify it on a map?)? That just seems unsupported by the evidence.

I think Netanyahu was able to persuade Trump to do "What no other President had the courage to do" and "defeat the Iranian theocracy for good".

 

[Harry Bosch]

That proves my point - there is a choice.

Sometime there is none. Why did Israel attack Gaza? I don't think they did it for fun. Why did US attack Iran? Because they could. That was partly for oil and partly for fun.

Partly for fun? I'm not sure what news you have access to, but I assume that you heard of the Hamas attack of October 7?

Regarding the US attacking Iran, I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that Trump cares about Israel (could ever identify it on a map?)? That just seems unsupported by the evidence.

I think Netanyahu was able to persuade Trump to do "What no other President had the courage to do" and "defeat the Iranian theocracy for good".

I could be wrong, but I think that Aupmanyav is confusing Gaza attack with Iran attack. Israel invaded Gaza due to October 7 Hamas invasion. Israel didn't attack for fun. The Iran attack (two years later) is totally different. I really don't know why Trump attacked Iran. Israel was going to attack, he wanted to join in. Clearly, he thought that Iran would collapse, and happiness and goodness would magically occur in Iran.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That proves my point - there is a choice.

Sometime there is none. Why did Israel attack Gaza? I don't think they did it for fun. Why did US attack Iran? Because they could. That was partly for oil and partly for fun.

Partly for fun? I'm not sure what news you have access to, but I assume that you heard of the Hamas attack of October 7?

Regarding the US attacking Iran, I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that Trump cares about Israel (could ever identify it on a map?)? That just seems unsupported by the evidence.

I think Netanyahu was able to persuade Trump to do "What no other President had the courage to do" and "defeat the Iranian theocracy for good".

I could be wrong, but I think that Aupmanyav is confusing Gaza attack with Iran attack. Israel invaded Gaza due to October 7 Hamas invasion. Israel didn't attack for fun.

Agreed.

The Iran attack (two years later) is totally different. I really don't know why Trump attacked Iran.

I think my interpretation follows the data points well. Netanyahu sold him a bridge in New York City about being the President to finally end the Iranian regime. (I doubt we'll ever see that proven, but it matches the facts such as there was absolutely no plan post initial bombardment and what we know about the internal reaction to the plan in the White House from the NYT). Trump appeared to be the only person in his Admin to buy it (half are anti-Semites that only support the land of Israel for Armageddon purposes, and the remaining understood the plan to be absolute crap and impossible).

Israel was going to attack, he wanted to join in.

Israel's attack, if any IMO, would have been largely restrained without the US. They would have gone through missile defense munitions quickly had they killed the Iranian leadership without US support. Netanyahu needed the US for defensive backup.

Clearly, he thought that Iran would collapse, and happiness and goodness would magically occur in Iran.

It reminds of Afghanistan. That was a 'piece of cake', so Iraq... here we go. For Trump, it was some weakass shit in Venezuela and so Iran would be easy with bombs too. The main difference between the two, the Neocons had deluded themselves into how Iraq would go. No one but Trump (maybe Netanyahu) believed this would work.

 

[Harry Bosch]

That proves my point - there is a choice.

Sometime there is none. Why did Israel attack Gaza? I don't think they did it for fun. Why did US attack Iran? Because they could. That was partly for oil and partly for fun.

Partly for fun? I'm not sure what news you have access to, but I assume that you heard of the Hamas attack of October 7?

Regarding the US attacking Iran, I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that Trump cares about Israel (could ever identify it on a map?)? That just seems unsupported by the evidence.

I think Netanyahu was able to persuade Trump to do "What no other President had the courage to do" and "defeat the Iranian theocracy for good".

I could be wrong, but I think that Aupmanyav is confusing Gaza attack with Iran attack. Israel invaded Gaza due to October 7 Hamas invasion. Israel didn't attack for fun.

Agreed.

The Iran attack (two years later) is totally different. I really don't know why Trump attacked Iran.

I think my interpretation follows the data points well. Netanyahu sold him a bridge in New York City about being the President to finally end the Iranian regime. (I doubt we'll ever see that proven, but it matches the facts such as there was absolutely no plan post initial bombardment and what we know about the internal reaction to the plan in the White House from the NYT). Trump appeared to be the only person in his Admin to buy it (half are anti-Semites that only support the land of Israel for Armageddon purposes, and the remaining understood the plan to be absolute crap and impossible).

Israel was going to attack, he wanted to join in.

Israel's attack, if any IMO, would have been largely restrained without the US. They would have gone through missile defense munitions quickly had they killed the Iranian leadership without US support. Netanyahu needed the US for defensive backup.

Clearly, he thought that Iran would collapse, and happiness and goodness would magically occur in Iran.

It reminds of Afghanistan. That was a 'piece of cake', so Iraq... here we go. For Trump, it was some weakass shit in Venezuela and so Iran would be easy with bombs too. The main difference between the two, the Neocons had deluded themselves into how Iraq would go. No one but Trump (maybe Netanyahu) believed this would work.

I agree with you 1,000%. This was colossal mistake by Trump. Yes, Iran is a bad country that supports terrorists in Gaza and Lebanon. Yes, in a perfect world, we don't want Iran to get nukes. They are too dangerous and wreckless. However, this action has undermined the international rules of law and had made Iran much stronger today. Their control of the strait makes them far more powerful. I hear that they are now demanding that Amazon and other western tech companies start paying tolls due to their internet cables in the strait.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I didn't realize that was a thing. I did hear on NPR a month or so ago about the choke line through there for fiber communication. Some are looking at connecting eastern Asia to Norway by going through the much shorter... but a tad bit more complicated Arctic path.

 

[laughing dog]

A stronger Russia would be an incredible resource trading partner, a hedge against China, and would better safeguard their nukes. The west desperately wants to trade with Russia. But stopping the war that they caused is issue number one.

But Europe aligned with US and are a part of NATO. How can they have good relations with Russia? Did Europe not help in destabilization in Ukraine?

Europe had improving relations until the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine was destabilizing by itself. Russia had been the major source of “destabilization” in Ukraine for almost a century (if not more).

Fun, "we did it in Yugoslavia, we will do it again in Ukraine". Who suffered? The Ukrainians.

You realize you describe Russia’s behavior.

 

[aupmanyav]

So of course, all the countries will band together against a common threat. The real threat to the west (maybe more of an economic threat) is China. The sooner Russia can be brought to the negotiating table to end this war the better it would be for all parties.

Where is the common threat? It is only when Europe bands with USA. Don't be a slave to US.

 

[laughing dog]

So of course, all the countries will band together against a common threat. The real threat to the west (maybe more of an economic threat) is China. The sooner Russia can be brought to the negotiating table to end this war the better it would be for all parties.

Where is the common threat? It is only when Europe bands with USA. Don't be a slave to US.

Pretty ironic coming from a slave to Russian propaganda.

 

[aupmanyav]

Regarding the US attacking Iran, I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that Trump cares about Israel (could ever identify it on a map?)? That just seems unsupported by the evidence.
I think Netanyahu was able to persuade Trump to do "What no other President had the courage to do" and "defeat the Iranian theocracy for good".

He does care for Israel. Jewish vote is important. Maga Christians are impressed by it. And then, it was his greed for controlling Iran oil. That is independent of what Netanyahu may have told him.

I really don't know why Trump attacked Iran. Israel was going to attack, he wanted to join in. Clearly, he thought that Iran would collapse, and happiness and goodness would magically occur in Iran.

No. I am not confused. Ah, you mean he was worried about happiness of Iran people? He went there for oil.

Netanyahu needed the US for defensive backup.

Sure, US could have continued to help Israel, but greed for oil made Trump jump in.

 

[ZiprHead]

So of course, all the countries will band together against a common threat. The real threat to the west (maybe more of an economic threat) is China. The sooner Russia can be brought to the negotiating table to end this war the better it would be for all parties.

Where is the common threat?

Lat 55.751244, Lon 37.618423

It is only when Europe bands with USA. Don't be a slave to US.

Wow. You must think the governments in Europe are really stupid.

 

[aupmanyav]

Yes, Iran is a bad country that supports terrorists in Gaza and Lebanon. Yes, in a perfect world, we don't want Iran to get nukes. They are too dangerous and wreckless. However, this action has undermined the international rules of law and had made Iran much stronger today. Their control of the strait makes them far more powerful. I hear that they are now demanding that Amazon and other western tech companies start paying tolls due to their internet cables in the strait.

Now, Israel also is not a 'washed in milk' country with the history of a century of oppressing Palestinians and taking away there land. Sooner of later Iran will get the nukes, whatever Israel and US may do. This war is never going to end, Israel is fighting a religion, not any particular country. Pakistan saved Iran aircrafts. It is not agreeing to Abraham Accord.

Wow. You must think the governments in Europe are really stupid.

Yeah, I do not think they face any danger from Russia. Banding together with US (NATO) creates the danger.

 

[ZiprHead]

Wow. You must think the governments in Europe are really stupid.

Yeah, I do not think they face any danger from Russia. Banding together with US (NATO) creates the danger.

That's like saying that putting locks on doors and windows is being hostile to known thieving neighbors.

Can you name any country NATO has invaded and tried to steal? Russia has done it plenty of times.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yes, Iran is a bad country that supports terrorists in Gaza and Lebanon. Yes, in a perfect world, we don't want Iran to get nukes. They are too dangerous and wreckless. However, this action has undermined the international rules of law and had made Iran much stronger today. Their control of the strait makes them far more powerful. I hear that they are now demanding that Amazon and other western tech companies start paying tolls due to their internet cables in the strait.

Now, Israel also is not a 'washed in milk' country with the history of a century of oppressing Palestinians and taking away there land. Sooner of later Iran will get the nukes, whatever Israel and US may do. This war is never going to end, Israel is fighting a religion, not any particular country. Pakistan saved Iran aircrafts. It is not agreeing to Abraham Accord.

Wow. You must think the governments in Europe are really stupid.

Yeah, I do not think they face any danger from Russia. Banding together with US (NATO) creates the danger.

What NATO countries has Russia recently invaded? What non-Nato countries has Russia recently invaded? Do you see a pattern?

 

[bilby]

That proves my point - there is a choice.

Sometime there is none. Why did Israel attack Gaza? I don't think they did it for fun. Why did US attack Iran? Because they could. That was partly for oil and partly for fun.

Partly for fun? I'm not sure what news you have access to, but I assume that you heard of the Hamas attack of October 7?

Trump explicitly said on March 14th that he might bomb Kharg Island "Just for fun".

 

[DrZoidberg]

There is little worse than a person who thinks he is in control, but isn't remotely in control. He is the guy in the room bragging of his authority while everyone else rolls their eyes.

What makes you think that Trump thinks he's in control? I think it's pretty obvoius that he's just a con artist and gambler who keeps making plays and is seeing what he can get away with.

The ONLY wisdom of Trump is that he understands that nobody is in control. That's what makes him dangerous. The world today works so smoothly and so efficiently because we're keeping alive a shared delusion that someone is in control. That fiction makes it work.

A parallel could be the fall of the Roman empire. While the empire was going strong people could travel freely from London to Jerusalem. It's when the illusion of Roman superiority was gone that the barbarians just pushed the whole thing over. And suddenly travel between two neighbouring villages became dangerous. What changed was the perception in the Roman beurocracy that they couldn't just get away with abuses of power. When that perception changed it all rapidly fell apart.

The same can happen now. The stability of our world today rests on the fear of the west. But Europe is a weak second rate power now, and USA seems to have lost interest in being the world police. The moment the "barbarians" realise that they can ignore all rules and international agreements, it'll rapidly come crashing dow

He is now steamrolling the planet into a fuel shortage... for nothing. He isn't going to get what he wants. The best he can do is less than what Obama was able to manage to get. The Iranian Theocracy will gladly watch the Earth burn. Trump has no leverage.

And he keeps saying 'They want to make a deal, we'll get a deal, or we'll go back to striking them.' Over and over, as if anyone believes it. Says the US will oversee the Strait of Hormuz, but has failed in doing so. We won the battle bigly... but are losing the war by even more. And the pragmatism required to end this nonsense is lacking for both parties.

When Khomeini came to power he kept making plays that made Carter make public pronouncements, only to make Carter look like a fool when it came to nothing. Khamenie is using the Khomeini playbook. So much is clear. I think Iran's goal is to make USA lose all credibility. To make them back off. Which is what happened after the Vietnam was ended. USA backed off a little bit and the whole world exploded into conflict.

 

[aupmanyav]

Can you name any country NATO has invaded and tried to steal? Russia has done it plenty of times.

US has sanctions on Russia (in a war brought about by NATO), Iran (in a war brought about by Israel. You cannot take Hamas attack as the beginning of the conflict which goes 150 years before that, 1870-1897) and Venezuelan oil and is threatening Cuba. Is not US the main actor in NATO? Why are the European countries silent about it?
"The organizations of Hovevei Zion (lit. 'Lovers of Zion'), held as the forerunners of modern Zionist ideals, were responsible for the creation of 20 Jewish towns in Palestine between 1870 and 1897." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

 

[aupmanyav]

What NATO countries has Russia recently invaded? What non-Nato countries has Russia recently invaded? Do you see a pattern?

Yes, I see a pattern starting from Yugoslavia of weakening Russia by NATO countries to Ukraine disturbance. European countries are part of the scheme. Why would not Russia react? Europe has been a slave to US.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can you name any country NATO has invaded and tried to steal? Russia has done it plenty of times.

US has sanctions on Russia (in a war brought about by NATO), Iran (in a war brought about by Israel. You cannot take Hamas attack as the beginning of the conflict which goes 150 years before that, 1870-1897) and Venezuelan oil and is threatening Cuba. Is not US the main actor in NATO? Why are the European countries silent about it?
"The organizations of Hovevei Zion (lit. 'Lovers of Zion'), held as the forerunners of modern Zionist ideals, were responsible for the creation of 20 Jewish towns in Palestine between 1870 and 1897." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

NATO was created in 1949 because USSR made every country they occupied a puppet state. As opposed to the allied forces who gave every occupied country their freedom. NATO is purely a defensive pact, against Russian agression. A pretty extreme agression at that.

Again... what country has NATO invaded and tried taking over?

USA is not the same thing as NATO. If you conflate those two you look foolish.

Israel was created by the UK. Not USA.

There's a context. Before the rise of nationalism people in empires moved freely all over the place and married all sorts. This was as true in the Ottoman empire as in any other empire. When nationalism got going and the various distinct ethnic groups started to vy for automony the borders of those autonomous ethnic politys were not obvious. You could basically draw borders anywhere in the Ottoman empire and you'd create about as much of a mess. After the founding of the various nation states, in the Middle-East, people's movement changed the multi-ethnic makeup into more ethnically homogenous regions. The Turkish coast is full of ethnically Greek buildings, built by ethnic Greeks who moved to Greece. Those buildings are now occupied by Turks. Same goes for the Armenians. There's Jewish buildings, and towns, all over the Middle-East who's occupants today are not Jewish. The Jews moved or were moved to Israel.

The UK tried to administer this mess of spontenous ethnic cleansing, that went in every which way.

As far as I'm aware of Israel is the only country in the Middle-East who has even acknowledged the bad things done in the name of Jews. The rest haven't. There's still statues in Turkey of Attatürk!!! The guy is on their money!!! So how in hell Israel got fingered as a bad guy here is beyond me. Actually it's not. It's just antisemitism. But anyway... I wish we'd stop hating Jews, for no reason

 

[Patooka]

What NATO countries has Russia recently invaded? What non-Nato countries has Russia recently invaded? Do you see a pattern?

Yes, I see a pattern starting from Yugoslavia of weakening Russia by NATO countries to Ukraine disturbance. European countries are part of the scheme. Why would not Russia react? Europe has been a slave to US.

You argument makes zero sense if you apply more than 5 seconds of thought.

Those countries you are alluding to (Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia) joined NATO in 2004. So Putin waited nearly 2 decades before "reacting"? Bullshit. And Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine was a direct cause for Finland and Sweden to join NATO. Russia is not the one "reacting". Everybody else is responding to Putin's Hitleresque naked aggression.

The simple truth is if Putin didn't act like a land grabbing cunt, his country wouldn't be sharing a border with NATO now. The blame is all on him.