Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

Emily knows what women want. She is always telling us what women want, what women feel, what women need. No penises in public showers, mainly.

No penises in women's public showers is what she is against.

It's a difficult issue to figure out how to honor and accommodate everyone. Not everyone is opposed to seeing genitals of a different gender than they are in a public restroom/locker room/shower. Some people are. The reasons may be religious prohibition or other types of modesty, or sexual trauma. The reasons are not necessarily anti-trans so much as they are about violations of personal boundaries. I think that many men do not understand that women by cultural indoctrination and by reasons of safety and based upon past trauma may have stricter boundaries.

I find it pretty misogynistic to not recognize this.

Universal privacy stalls with doors would help this. But some women will still be leery. Some women will be excluded because of their religion or culture or because of past trauma.

It is interesting to me that men here are much more willing to insist that we must accommodate a person with a penis than they are willing to acknowledge that some people have very good reasons to not wish to have to deal with an unexpected penis in the shower--for instance, someone who has been raped.

 

[Politesse]

What "conversation" can be had with someone whose only solution to the prevalence of sexual assault is to scapegoat trans women for a crime almost exclusively committed by cis men in reality? There's no compromise being offered, only jail sentences to innocent women. That's not a dialogue, that's just more assault of women under a different guise and rationale, targeted at the minority subset of women with the least ability to defend themselves.

 

[thebeave]

What "conversation" can be had with someone whose only solution to the prevalence of sexual assault is to scapegoat trans women for a crime almost exclusively committed by cis men in reality? There's no compromise being offered, only jail sentences to innocent women. That's not a dialogue, that's just more assault of women under a different guise and rationale, targeted at the minority subset of women with the least ability to defend themselves.

I can't speak for others, but the main thing for me is the violation of privacy. I really don't like being naked in front of strangers of either sex, but it would be 10 times worse to expose myself to a random female than a male. Especially if its someone I see regularly in the gym/locker room. I don't want her judging and gossipping about my junk (not that there's anything wrong with it)! I think women are the same way with regard to sharing naked space with men.

 

[Toni]

What "conversation" can be had with someone whose only solution to the prevalence of sexual assault is to scapegoat trans women for a crime almost exclusively committed by cis men in reality? There's no compromise being offered, only jail sentences to innocent women. That's not a dialogue, that's just more assault of women under a different guise and rationale, targeted at the minority subset of women with the least ability to defend themselves.

Nobody is scapegoating!

Why can you not realize that except for transphobes, who are found in all genders, that there can be a visceral negative, frightening reaction to finding someone with an exposed penis when you expect to see only female genitalia?

Or, a lot of parents would be quite alarmed if their 12 year old daughter emerged from the locker room at the Y and said there was someone in the shower next to her with a penis.

The first thought is not: ah, a trans individual. It’s what the hell. Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

 

[Politesse]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

 

[bilby]

It's a difficult issue to figure out how to honor and accommodate everyone.

Actually, it's not.

Not everyone is opposed to seeing genitals of a different gender than they are in a public restroom/locker room/shower. Some people are. The reasons may be religious prohibition or other types of modesty, or sexual trauma. The reasons are not necessarily anti-trans so much as they are about violations of personal boundaries. I think that many men do not understand that women by cultural indoctrination and by reasons of safety and based upon past trauma may have stricter boundaries.

These arguments are all very strong arguments for not having communal showers, locker rooms or restrooms.

If all such facilities provide personal privacy, as they absolutely should, then the entire problem vanishes.

The existence of such communal facilities owes to an historical error - the false belief that single sex facilities are both an actual thing, and that people of the same same sex don't (or shouldn't) value privacy from each other.

I don't want the law to protect people from seeing the genitalia of the opposite sex without consent. I want the law to protect everyone from seeing the genitalia of anyone without consent.

At which point, it matters naught who has what genitalia.

 

[Toni]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.

One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

 

[Politesse]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.
8
One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

It's true that I have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to feel "safe" in a locker room, but I do believe, strongly, that hurting other innocent people can never expiate one's own trauma. A politics of stoking fear only creates more fear, it does not make us safer.

And I do not accept your argument that this is a question of men versus women, that's absurd. Misognyny drives the entire anti-trans movement, and almost all of its major supporters are male politicians, not female ones. Opposing Donald Trump and his Christian nationalist allies is not misogyny, that doesn't even make sense. They would happily see you all in chains. Do you have any idea how cis men talk about you in their locker rooms? It's not good. It's not safe. You should not trust them at all.

 

[crazyfingers]

I hated high School locksr rooms. There was no way I was going to shower in a common shower with a dozen other guys. No way.

I have no idea why the authorities at the time thought that was just fine. Fuck them all.

 

[Toni]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.
8
One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

It's true that I have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to feel "safe" in a locker room, but I do believe, strongly, that hurting other innocent people can never expiate one's own trauma. A politics of stoking fear only creates more fear, it does not make us safer.

And I do not accept your argument that this is a question of men versus women, that's absurd. Misognyny drives the entire anti-trans movement, and almost all of its major supporters are male politicians, not female ones. Opposing Donald Trump and his Christian nationalist allies is not misogyny, that doesn't even make sense. They would happily see you all in chains. Do you have any idea how cis men talk about you in their locker rooms? It's not good. It's not safe. You should not trust them at all.

Please. You have to tell me not to trust men?

You have got to be kidding.

What I am trying, in vain, to get you to understand is that for some women who have been sexually assaulted, unexpectedly seeing someone with a penis in a women's only space, while all parties are in some stage of undress can be extremely traumatizing. This is not about anti-trans anything. It's because there is no way for someone to know in an instant that that stranger with a penis is really a woman. There just isn't. And there is no way to be 100% certain that the PTSD is gone, no matter how many years of therapy and love from someone you dared to love. You just don't. I'm flashing back now to times I had to physically defend myself at under 100lbs against guys who were more than twice my size with necks as big as their heads. Or to stop a gang rape of a drunk friend. I remember laughing in the face of a guy who had a bicycle chain wrapped around my neck, squeezing it tight. I remember being pulled off the guy I was fully prepared to beat to a bloody pulp because the first three times I said no didn't mean anything. And no, those were not the worst. Not by a long shot. I feel my muscles tense. I feel my blood pound in my head and I wonder if I might someday have to go looking for a certain someone and make bloody sure it never happens again. I won't. But I think about it.

This type of conversation makes me think about it.

Because I think you are a nice, thoughtful, not threatening guy. Without a mean bone in his body if that can be said of anyone. And I see that a strength, btw. To be able to not be mean, even when you have cause to be.

And if you cannot even SEE that for way more women and girls than you or I would like to admit, seeing a naked stranger with a penis in the women's shower is traumatizing--not because you think it should be but because it just is.

And all I've done is try to explain why it is.

And to suggest shower stalls with doors.

Not banning trans women. Providing privacy for all.

I'm the monster. I'm the bigot.

No more of this bullshit.

 

[Politesse]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.
8
One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

It's true that I have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to feel "safe" in a locker room, but I do believe, strongly, that hurting other innocent people can never expiate one's own trauma. A politics of stoking fear only creates more fear, it does not make us safer.

And I do not accept your argument that this is a question of men versus women, that's absurd. Misognyny drives the entire anti-trans movement, and almost all of its major supporters are male politicians, not female ones. Opposing Donald Trump and his Christian nationalist allies is not misogyny, that doesn't even make sense. They would happily see you all in chains. Do you have any idea how cis men talk about you in their locker rooms? It's not good. It's not safe. You should not trust them at all.

Please. You have to tell me not to trust men?

You have got to be kidding.

What I am trying, in vain, to get you to understand is that for some women who have been sexually assaulted, unexpectedly seeing someone with a penis in a women's only space, while all parties are in some stage of undress can be extremely traumatizing. This is not about anti-trans anything. It's because there is no way for someone to know in an instant that that stranger with a penis is really a woman. There just isn't. And there is no way to be 100% certain that the PTSD is gone, no matter how many years of therapy and love from someone you dared to love. You just don't. I'm flashing back now to times I had to physically defend myself at under 100lbs against guys who were more than twice my size with necks as big as their heads. Or to stop a gang rape of a drunk friend. I remember laughing in the face of a guy who had a bicycle chain wrapped around my neck, squeezing it tight. I remember being pulled off the guy I was fully prepared to beat to a bloody pulp because the first three times I said no didn't mean anything. And no, those were not the worst. Not by a long shot. I feel my muscles tense. I feel my blood pound in my head and I wonder if I might someday have to go looking for a certain someone and make bloody sure it never happens again. I won't. But I think about it.

This type of conversation makes me think about it.

Because I think you are a nice, thoughtful, not threatening guy. Without a mean bone in his body if that can be said of anyone. And I see that a strength, btw. To be able to not be mean, even when you have cause to be.

And if you cannot even SEE that for way more women and girls than you or I would like to admit, seeing a naked stranger with a penis in the women's shower is traumatizing--not because you think it should be but because it just is.

And all I've done is try to explain why it is.

And to suggest shower stalls with doors.

Not banning trans women. Providing privacy for all.

I'm the monster. I'm the bigot.

No more of this bullshit.

Who said "you're the monster" or "you're the bigot"? What I said is that anti-trans bigotry and scapegoating is wrong. If those positions don't describe you, then my statement oughtn't apply to you at all, let alone especially to you. I've said nothing about you personally. Despite your repeated, very nastily personal attacks in the other direction. You know, you really ought to get to know someone before accusing them of knowing nothing about sexual assault. The sheer audacity!

 

[Toni]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.
8
One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

It's true that I have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to feel "safe" in a locker room, but I do believe, strongly, that hurting other innocent people can never expiate one's own trauma. A politics of stoking fear only creates more fear, it does not make us safer.

And I do not accept your argument that this is a question of men versus women, that's absurd. Misognyny drives the entire anti-trans movement, and almost all of its major supporters are male politicians, not female ones. Opposing Donald Trump and his Christian nationalist allies is not misogyny, that doesn't even make sense. They would happily see you all in chains. Do you have any idea how cis men talk about you in their locker rooms? It's not good. It's not safe. You should not trust them at all.

Please. You have to tell me not to trust men?

You have got to be kidding.

What I am trying, in vain, to get you to understand is that for some women who have been sexually assaulted, unexpectedly seeing someone with a penis in a women's only space, while all parties are in some stage of undress can be extremely traumatizing. This is not about anti-trans anything. It's because there is no way for someone to know in an instant that that stranger with a penis is really a woman. There just isn't. And there is no way to be 100% certain that the PTSD is gone, no matter how many years of therapy and love from someone you dared to love. You just don't. I'm flashing back now to times I had to physically defend myself at under 100lbs against guys who were more than twice my size with necks as big as their heads. Or to stop a gang rape of a drunk friend. I remember laughing in the face of a guy who had a bicycle chain wrapped around my neck, squeezing it tight. I remember being pulled off the guy I was fully prepared to beat to a bloody pulp because the first three times I said no didn't mean anything. And no, those were not the worst. Not by a long shot. I feel my muscles tense. I feel my blood pound in my head and I wonder if I might someday have to go looking for a certain someone and make bloody sure it never happens again. I won't. But I think about it.

This type of conversation makes me think about it.

Because I think you are a nice, thoughtful, not threatening guy. Without a mean bone in his body if that can be said of anyone. And I see that a strength, btw. To be able to not be mean, even when you have cause to be.

And if you cannot even SEE that for way more women and girls than you or I would like to admit, seeing a naked stranger with a penis in the women's shower is traumatizing--not because you think it should be but because it just is.

And all I've done is try to explain why it is.

And to suggest shower stalls with doors.

Not banning trans women. Providing privacy for all.

I'm the monster. I'm the bigot.

No more of this bullshit.

Who said "you're the monster" or "you're the bigot"? What I said is that anti-trans bigotry and scapegoating is wrong. If those positions don't describe you, then my statement oughtn't apply to you at all, let alone especially to you. I've said nothing about you personally. Despite your repeated, very nastily personal attacks in the other direction. You know, you really ought to get to know someone before accusing them of knowing nothing about sexual assault. The sheer audacity!

I assume you've had to deal with sexual assault. Then you should goddamn know enough to recognize that people do not respond to re-traumatizing events with reasoning. Nope. Their bodies and minds go into survival mode as they re-question everything and anything they ever did that was a mistake, was wrong.

Audacity? That's a mirror you're looking into.

Yeah, that's me directing something to you personally.

Just like you responding directly to my posts about what I wrote is directed towards me. Personally.

It would cost you that much to say that you understand why some girls and women would find it traumatizing to be suddenly confronted with a naked penis in a women's only space when they are in some stage of undress.

I'm guessing more than you've got.

You know the word: Empathy.

What men expect from women and can't be shuffed to attempt.

It's more than just a theory. It's what separates humans from assholes.

 

[Politesse]

So you're just, what, doubling down on the nasty personal attacks, while also demanding empathy? An interesting strategy, to be sure.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because there are hell of a lot more perverts and rapists with penises than there are pre/non surgical trans women.

Thousands of anti-trans bills aren't reducing the danger from those indivduals in the slightest.

I vehemently oppose anti-trans legislation. I am not anti-trans in anyway. I detest the bigotry and cheap political theatrics around opposing trans rights. I have nothing but compassion for trans men and trans women who must face struggles that I cannot begin to imagine.
8
One in three females will experience sexual assault. I’m one of them. I cannot pretend that I do not have compassion, born from experience, for what survivors must navigate.

You insult us by ignoring that the trauma, the PTSD is real, ongoing, long lasting and does not stay squashed down inside of you when you are in what you assume to be a place where you can enjoy privacy and just: BE without unexpectedly be confronted with what we are conditioned to fear: an unexpected penis in your private space. To have no place where you can lay down, for just a few precious moments, the burden of your constant vigilance.


I’m thrilled for you that this is one trauma you do not have to try to manage. From what you have shared, I know that your life has not always been easy or straightforward.

Can you not have some compassion for people who have have been sexually assaulted and who now must know that they can never assume that a women only space will be free from something that may trigger their PTSD?

Because, my friend, refusing to recognize those traumas? that is misogyny.

How is that better than the anti-trans phobia you accuse me of for:

1. Re-stating another poster’s stance
2. Suggesting that universal stalls with doors would go a longways towards eliminating the issue.

I mean: How DARE I?

It's true that I have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to feel "safe" in a locker room, but I do believe, strongly, that hurting other innocent people can never expiate one's own trauma. A politics of stoking fear only creates more fear, it does not make us safer.

There appears to be a bit of inconsistency though in that sentiment as you apply it for women. There are women in here that have expressed reservations regarding their feelings of allowing such, that you seem to have no problem looking past. Trauma aside, as I don't believe people need to have suffered trauma to have a mandate for feeling safe, I see this as two historically disadvantaged groups having conflicting, but reasonable interests. The problem is that both sides are right, but the manner of applying it is not remotely simple.

 

[ZiprHead]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

 

[Politesse]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

This is already entirely legal, and a good idea. You don't have to suspend anyone's civil rights to expand privacy. But businesses don't like the extra expense.

 

[ZiprHead]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

This is already entirely legal, and a good idea. You don't have to suspend anyone's civil rights to expand privacy. But businesses don't like the extra expense.

Considering the building was built in the early sixties it was quite forward thinking.

 

[Toni]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

Yes, I know that many facilities offer private showers and changing areas and have done for many years. People have many reasons for preferring privacy.

I was not being original any of the times I suggested this. And I knew it.

 

[Jarhyn]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

Yes, I know that many facilities offer private showers and changing areas and have done for many years. People have many reasons for preferring privacy.

I was not being original any of the times I suggested this. And I knew it.

Yeah, I think one of the first contributions I made to threads like this almost a decade ago was saying something similar, and I know I wasn't the first to suggest it either.

This guidance is so old we might as well call it "conservative" at this point, and yet it still has never been seriously pushed because we ALL know that those inconvenienced by pennies on the profit dollar will scream bloody murder over it.

 

[Toni]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

Yes, I know that many facilities offer private showers and changing areas and have done for many years. People have many reasons for preferring privacy.

I was not being original any of the times I suggested this. And I knew it.

Yeah, I think one of the first contributions I made to threads like this almost a decade ago was saying something similar, and I know I wasn't the first to suggest it either.

This guidance is so old we might as well call it "conservative" at this point, and yet it still has never been seriously pushed because we ALL know that those inconvenienced by pennies on the profit dollar will scream bloody murder over it.

I don't think the pennies/profit has a damn thing to do with it, tbh.

It's like abortion. It's a red meat issue for some people, certain to generate a lot of ire. Bonus if it gets to traumatize or endanger (dangers of pregnancy, birth control, abortion, childbirth) women in any way.

I'm very sleep deprived and my joints ache and I'm disappointed with myself about how little I've gotten accomplished the past week so feel free to read that taken down a few notches. But it's my current state of mind. No need to worry. I'll get over it. But it's still true.