Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

If it is not in the letter, then it is insane to impute it.

The letter was written in relation to facts on the ground, it doesn't stand in isolation.

True, but that doesn’t justify imputing meaning that is admittedly (by you) not in the content.

Nothing in the real world stands in isolation, it must be interpreted in the context it existed in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The primary goal was to get the hostages back. The war ended when that was accomplished, but Hamas keeps skirmishing.

Do you actually believe the "primary goal" of the bombings was to get the hostages back?

The primary goal was retribution. I get it. Nothing particularly wrong there. All the western world got it too. And looked the other way as Israel did what they felt was necessary. Mossad enacted the Hezbollah communication plot as well. But none of that was going to get hostages returned. And the bombings went on longer than needed to effect the return of the remaining hostages. The attacks could have ended at 12 months with the same result.

Ended at 12 months with the same result? And you have a magic wand that would make Hamas agree??

In general, I think that the conditions at 24 months wouldn't have been much different than 12 months. It isn't a magic wand, it was Netanyahu had long since exhausted the patience of the world and the military actions had long become fruitless towards the goal of ending Hamas.

This isn't about the world's patience. It's about whether Hamas would agree.

And Israel found a tactic that really hurt: the GHF. Hamas maintains power through control of food. Israel was bypassing that.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th? Or what needs to be done to stop Hezbollah shelling northern Israel?

Getting Iran to stop funding it. And oddly enough, there is an agreement that could have involved that. Of which the GOP and Trump have not put a dyne of pressure on Iran to do that! laughing dog is a red herring. What laughing dog says here is irrelevant. The GOP and Trump have a moment in which they could press for this, and they aren't touching it with a 1000 meter long pole. All this bullshit about how the liberals are anti-Semites, and we see where the GOP actually stands on Israel!

There has never been an agreement that would have involved not funding Hamas. Nothing even close.

Sure and Jordan and Egypt would always be at war with Israel too.

The Islamists do not need everyone at war with Israel. They need someone at war with Israel.

Firstly, you are dodging the point... that two nations at war with Israel... stopped being at war with Israel. It happened. It can happen again.

And you're missing the point, this is multiple fronts in one war. Whether they are fighting in Egypt or not doesn't change the existence of the war.

Secondly, terrorists need money, they need souls. We did this already in Iraq. When after 2006 election debacle, the W Admin and the military shifted tactics to one with inclusion of the locals and things started going better. There will always be people that want to do bad things. The goal is to get them isolated. And right now, they aren't isolated.

No, things got better because Iran wasn't subverting areas they already had control.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Where did they level a city to get "a few terrorists"?

Just about every major metropolitan area in Gaza has been almost completely destroyed.

I wasn't questioning the destruction. That's what happens in war.

30,000 Hamas member out of a population of 2.1 million constitutes as a few.

Armies usually are no more than a few percent.

2) Too bad. They keep fighting. Your cities getting leveled is what happens when you start a war you can't win and then won't surrender when invaded. Blame Hamas for using every building as a fighting position.

30,000 fighters in Gaza certainly cannot use "every building as a fighting position."

You shoot and run, shoot and run. We see the same devastation in Ukraine.

Khan Younis

This was a city of 400,000 people. Destruction as far as the eye can seen.

That's war. Hamas chose to start this, Hamas chose not to surrender. They cared more about hurting Israel than about their own cities. Blame them.

 

[laughing dog]

If it is not in the letter, then it is insane to impute it.

The letter was written in relation to facts on the ground, it doesn't stand in isolation.

True, but that doesn’t justify imputing meaning that is admittedly (by you) not in the content.

Nothing in the real world stands in isolation, it must be interpreted in the context it existed in.

See bold faced above.

You haven’t explained how the letter is antisemitic.

 

[ZiprHead]

If it is not in the letter, then it is insane to impute it.

The letter was written in relation to facts on the ground, it doesn't stand in isolation.

True, but that doesn’t justify imputing meaning that is admittedly (by you) not in the content.

Nothing in the real world stands in isolation, it must be interpreted in the context it existed in.

See bold faced above.

You haven’t explained how the letter is antisemitic.

He sees anti semites under his bed.

 

[Tigers!]

Israel does need to be more careful and clinical. The amount of ordnance they have flung into Gaza is just ridiculous (and deadly).

You complain about it but actually agree with it? How very antisemitic of you to hold a government to the same standards you'd apply to every other government.

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th?

Do you really think you could stop another October 7th? It was done with small arms and motorcycles. It could easily be repeated.

The problem is that Israel is held to a standard that Hamas/Hezbollah et. al are not.
When Hamas/Hezbollah do what they do there is sighing, clutching of pearls, attack of vapours etc. but nothing is done.
When Israel responds we get calls of possible war crimes, disproportionate response, 'haul them to the Hague', sanctions etc. Why the difference?

Hamas is dog bites man. Israel is man bites dog.

So? The fact that evil is normal doesn't make it not evil.

Never said it wasn't.

The problem is you are basically saying that Israel must not defend itself from evil.

How in the world am I saying that??? Plot that out for me.

Tigers asked why Hamas doesn't get the attention that Israel gets. I answered him as to why. Everyone knows Hamas is evil. Evil organizations do evil shit. It's a tautology.

Of course everybody knows that Hamas is evil. Now that we have that agreed upon that what is to be with Hamas (and Hezbollah)? Israel is the only one doing anything to try and stop Hamas. Yet they get constantly told off for that. No acknowledgement of the difficulty and deadly nature of what they are trying to achieve.
How do you stop the one who is hitting you? You hit them back or you let them keep doing. If some one has a viable 3rd alternative we are all ears.

When Israel does evil shit, like leveling entire cities to get a few terrorists, that's unusual so it makes news.

They are not levelling cities for the fun of it. Though I think they need to be far more clinical and targeted.
Israeli did not wake up on 27th Oct and decide "Let's invade Gaza today". There was a reason for it.

 

[Tigers!]

How about a few hundred words saying this is what needs to be done to stop Hamas doing another Oct 7th?

Do you really think you could stop another October 7th? It was done with small arms and motorcycles. It could easily be repeated.

So Israel just has to put up with the possibility of such attacks forever?

What's your alternative?

They hit back. Max. force on min. targets.
Aim for the leaders, fighters, rockets etc. Stop the money and supplies. But that will require outside help.
Reduce, ideally to zero (0), non -Hamas casualties.

 

[ZiprHead]

1) Where did they level a city to get "a few terrorists"?

Just about every major metropolitan area in Gaza has been almost completely destroyed.

I wasn't questioning the destruction. That's what happens in war.

30,000 Hamas member out of a population of 2.1 million constitutes as a few.

Armies usually are no more than a few percent.

2) Too bad. They keep fighting. Your cities getting leveled is what happens when you start a war you can't win and then won't surrender when invaded. Blame Hamas for using every building as a fighting position.

30,000 fighters in Gaza certainly cannot use "every building as a fighting position."

You shoot and run, shoot and run. We see the same devastation in Ukraine.

Russia has more than 700,000 troops in Ukraine. Far greater than 30,000.

Khan Younis

This was a city of 400,000 people. Destruction as far as the eye can seen.

That's war. Hamas chose to start this, Hamas chose not to surrender. They cared more about hurting Israel than about their own cities. Blame them.

Even if all 30,000 Hamas members were there in that one city, that doesn't excuse this level of destruction.

 

[ZiprHead]

They are not levelling cities for the fun of it.

How are you so sure of that?

Though I think they need to be far more clinical and targeted.

So you actually agree with me.

Israeli did not wake up on 27th Oct and decide "Let's invade Gaza today". There was a reason for it.

Killing innocent civilians should be highly considered prior to doing so. Using 5000 lb bombs on crowded cities is pretty indiscriminate. That's why Biden stopped shipping those weapons to Israel.

 

[Tigers!]

They are not levelling cities for the fun of it.

How are you so sure of that?

Because they need to be rebuilt.

Though I think they need to be far more clinical and targeted.

So you actually agree with me.

I do not recall ever disagreeing with anyone who wants as few casualties as possible. Perhaps you have confused me with another?

Israeli did not wake up on 27th Oct and decide "Let's invade Gaza today". There was a reason for it.

Killing innocent civilians should be highly considered prior to doing so.

If only Hamas gave that any consideration.

Using 5000 lb bombs on crowded cities is pretty indiscriminate.

If just flung in then yes.

That's why Biden stopped shipping those weapons to Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

They are not levelling cities for the fun of it.

How are you so sure of that?

Because they need to be rebuilt.

After Israel takes over and takes the land?

Though I think they need to be far more clinical and targeted.

So you actually agree with me.

I do not recall ever disagreeing with anyone who wants as few casualties as possible. Perhaps you have confused me with another?

Keep repeating it "need to be far more clinical and targeted." "need to be far more clinical and targeted." need to be far more clinical and targeted."

Israeli did not wake up on 27th Oct and decide "Let's invade Gaza today". There was a reason for it.

Killing innocent civilians should be highly considered prior to doing so.

If only Hamas gave that any consideration.

Hamas doesn't force Israel to do anything at all. Israel does it by choice.

Using 5000 lb bombs on crowded cities is pretty indiscriminate.

If just flung in then yes.

That's why Biden stopped shipping those weapons to Israel.

 

[Arctish]

I feel like you're looking at this through a pretty extreme lens. A lot of people fiercely oppose Hamas, felt sickened by October 7, and stand with Iranian protestors, yet they still believe Palestinians have a right to their own future and that Israel's government isn't above criticism. You seem to be reducing this to a binary choice between supporting human rights and condemning terrorism, when it's entirely possible to do both.

No. You are looking at a fantasy of peaceful coexistence, but the Palestinian Hamas cause is and always has been one of genocide.

FTFY

1948 was about genocide.

1948 was about the genocide in Europe. It was about hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing oppression and murder in Europe and hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing murder and terrorism in Palestine. It was about European immigrants taking a huge bite out of the homeland of the Palestinian people and claiming it for a Jewish ethno-state. It was about who was going to be in charge of what now that the British Mandate was ending, the French had been rendered toothless, and the US and Soviet Union were squaring off over the region.

Trying to recast the origins of the conflict into a childish "Arabs hate Jews" just-so story is ridiculous. Who do you think you're fooling? Not anyone who knows even a little bit of the history, that's for sure.

1) So what if there's a migration? Locally, there used to be a lot of comments about refugees from California. The growth caused some problems. Doesn't mean we objected to the people, though.

And as I pointed out in multiple posts over the years, there was no problem with migration during the First and Second Aliyah when the Jewish immigrants were applying to become citizens and their applications were granted.

The problems arose later when some of the recently arrived immigrants came bearing arms and declaring their intentions to create an ethno-state in which 70-90% of the resident population would be excluded and/or forcibly removed.

The change in government would not have hurt anyone other than in their feelings.

Pure bullshit. Also a flat out lie.

You know better. Even your best efforts at remaining ignorant of history have failed to keep you from learning about the reason the Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency for Palestine was created and what it accomplished.

2) 1948 was about the Arab armies committing genocide against the Jews.

Bullshit squared.

The Arab armies did not engage in genocide against Jews. Not in their own countries, and not in other countries, either.

The neighboring countries attempted to overthrow the newly formed Zionist government created by terrorists. I'm sure that if terrorists created a State right next to you, you'd have concerns. Especially if the terrorists kept saying they were heading your way next.

Anyone who has participated in these discussions for at least a year has come across information on Plan Dalet and the deliberate, premeditated ethnic cleansing carried out by Zionist forces when Israel was founded. If you want people to believe the Arab armies had a similar plan or carried out a campaign like that one, post a link that supports your assertions.

And since I already know you can't do that because evidence of something that didn't happen doesn't exist, I will ask you once again to please stop mucking up these discussions with your bullshit.

Support your claims. If you can't, then don't make them.

 

[Arctish]

The massive floodplain marsh where I do a lot of work has become a monoculture of Salix caroliniana. This is largely due to hydrological changes stemming from flood control water management in the headwaters. Ecologists don’t like this invasive shrub swamp monoculture because it has displaced a thriving heterogeneous herbaceous marsh. Water managers are mad the the willow use too much water.

The water managers think the solution is to just bring in the crop dusters and kill all the willow. Guess what happens if don’t fix the degraded hydrologic condition that made the willow a problem in the first place? You have to keep killing the willow in perpetuity.

Unless the bullshit going back to the mid 20th century is fixed the whackamole will continue. And right now Israel is doing the human equivalent of using a non selective herbicide that kills the willow and everything else trying to hang on and survive around it.

A reasonable approximation, but how do you repair the ecosystem in this case?

It didn't actually start in the mid 20th century, that's just when it became obvious. But even if you grant that it did, what is the solution? Allow the "refugees" to "return"? They win the next election, genocide. Jews go home? Genocide.

You are the most staunch racist I have ever met, and I lived in Texas for a few years so that's saying something.

Refugees returning does not equal genocide. Non-Jews winning elections in Israel doesn't, either. Your fears of Jews in Israel being annihilated practically overnight if they lose the majority in the Knesset are not reasonable, they're ridiculous.

Like I've said before, you have a talent for concocting lurid pulp fiction stories about Palestinians and the existential threat they pose. I still think Grannies from Shatila and Return of the Saf Saf Villagers would be kick-ass dystopian fantasy novellas. You really should consider publishing them. And include that one about the eldritch hand of Yassir Arafat forcing the returning refugees to be carriers of a deadly disease that only affects Jews. I don't think we ever came up with a name for that one. The Curse of Jabalia, maybe?

 

[DrZoidberg]

With Hamas not willing to accept Israel's existence nor the presence of Jews in the ME there is no viable side for Israel or anyone else, to deal with.

Isn't that the entire rationale behind removing Hamas from power in Gaza?

If Hamas is unwilling to accept Israel's existence and is committed to perpetual conflict, then they're obviously not a viable negotiating partner. That's precisely why I support efforts to remove Hamas from power and replace it with a leadership that is at least capable of pursuing coexistence.

And since Loren seems determined to ignore this point: yes, Israel's stated position is that peaceful coexistence is possible without regimes like Hamas and Hezbollah in power. I happen to agree with that objective. Do I personally think achieving it will be easy, or even likely? No. But I support the effort to try.

What exactly is objectionable about that? If the alternative is leaving organizations in power whose stated goals include the destruction of Israel and endless conflict, then what is the competing solution supposed to be?

Your constant tantrums about this not being a perfect world just makes me want to ask: where did the world touch you?

The problem is you are proposing a fantasy solution. How do you propose to remove Hamas and prevent their replacement?? There is simply too much terror money for this to actually happen.

Hamas are not the most extreme group in Gaza. There's some way more extreme and more genocidal groups in Gaza. If we just remove Hamas there's a large risk we'll get something worse.

This is what Israeli talking heads mean when they say that "Islam is a death cult".

There's just so many Gazans that are religiously motivated to die murdering Jews

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem is you are proposing a fantasy solution.

The problem here is that this isn't my proposal, it's Israel's. I've explained that repeatedly, yet you keep arguing with me as though I personally drafted the policy. At some point, you're going to have to force that through your remarkably thick skull: I'm describing Israel's stated position, not presenting my own peace plan for your approval. Not a single living creature on earth is seeking your approval on anything.

I don't think Israel at any point since the 7/10 attacks have entertained the idea of Gazan self rule. I think that attack permanently removed that option from the table. So in Israeli parlance, removing Hamas, means Israel taking over.

Israel have tried their damndest to find a Muslim country they can give Gaza to. But they all keep saying no. Muslims are often also sick and tired of Muslim extremism. Which is a thing.

 

[ZiprHead]

The problem is you are proposing a fantasy solution.

The problem here is that this isn't my proposal, it's Israel's. I've explained that repeatedly, yet you keep arguing with me as though I personally drafted the policy. At some point, you're going to have to force that through your remarkably thick skull: I'm describing Israel's stated position, not presenting my own peace plan for your approval. Not a single living creature on earth is seeking your approval on anything.

I don't think Israel at any point since the 7/10 attacks have entertained the idea of Gazan self rule. I think that attack permanently removed that option from the table. So in Israeli parlance, removing Hamas, means Israel taking over.

Israel have tried their damndest to find a Muslim country they can give Gaza to. But they all keep saying no. Muslims are often also sick and tired of Muslim extremism. Which is a thing.

The Israeli overkill response tp 10/7 surely made a helluva a lot more potential Palestinian terrorists.

 

[Gospel]

I don't think Israel at any point since the 7/10 attacks have entertained the idea of Gazan self rule. I think that attack permanently removed that option from the table. So in Israeli parlance, removing Hamas, means Israel taking over.

Israel have tried their damndest to find a Muslim country they can give Gaza to. But they all keep saying no. Muslims are often also sick and tired of Muslim extremism. Which is a thing.

I think you're conflating Israeli security control with civilian governance. The Israeli government has repeatedly said it wants to retain security control while having Gaza administered by Palestinians not affiliated with Hamas. You can disagree with whether that's realistic, but that's not the same thing as saying Israel officially intends to govern Gaza itself.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think Israel at any point since the 7/10 attacks have entertained the idea of Gazan self rule. I think that attack permanently removed that option from the table. So in Israeli parlance, removing Hamas, means Israel taking over.

Israel have tried their damndest to find a Muslim country they can give Gaza to. But they all keep saying no. Muslims are often also sick and tired of Muslim extremism. Which is a thing.

I think you're conflating Israeli security control with civilian governance. The Israeli government has repeatedly said it wants to retain security control while having Gaza administered by Palestinians not affiliated with Hamas. You can disagree with whether that's realistic, but that's not the same thing as saying Israel officially intends to govern Gaza itself.

I'd say that's hairsplitting. If the Gazans won't be able to vote for their most popular policy, murdering all Jews, do they really have autonomy?

 

[TomC]

The Israeli overkill response tp 10/7 surely made a helluva a lot more potential Palestinian terrorists.

The multi generation efforts by Israel's Muslim neighbors, to cause violent ethnic cleansing, has had a similar effect on staunch Zionist Israeli people.
And me.
I quite understand why they are bombing the fuck out of Gaza, and I think that they are quite justified.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Seeing the Trump Administration appears to be ignoring Israeli security concerns as they relate to the Iranian Agreement, this is off-topic.

No, bringing up Trump concerning a conflict going on since he was born is off topic.
Tom