Roe v Wade is on deck

[laughing dog]

I return the question to you

So you are unable to answer the question I asked?
Let me repeat it.
What agenda do you think I am pushing?
Tom

The triumph of ignorance .

 

[Politesse]

When I was a student there were mandatory subjects and elective subjects. What does that have to do with medical jargon?
Tom

Who made that org chart, and what were their goals? Everyone has an agenda, man.

 

[Jarhyn]

When I was a student there were mandatory subjects and elective subjects. What does that have to do with medical jargon?
Tom

Who made that org chart, and what were their goals? Everyone has an agenda, man.

I'll point out too, that if you don't take electives, you still don't graduate. They're still required. It's not optional to take electives in school either. Which electives you take, sure, but you're either taking some or "taking a hike without taking a degree."

 

[TomC]

I'll take the last few posts as a win.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I'll take the last few posts as a win.
Tom

The perfect example of the triumph of ignorance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oftentimes the one smart person "on the island" ends up getting frequently "voted off the island" because they don't understand the task of "running around in circles while flailing your hands and saying 'look at me, this is useful work, see how much activity I can put on display' such that people mistake that for actually pulling weight, and if anyone saw the reality of pulling weight long or clear enough to learn the difference, the department would be in real trouble of needing to do their jobs."

Yeah. I quickly saw Survivor was junk, but I got mislead into watching something similar: The Mountain. I was expecting The Amazing Race going up a mountain. No, it really was Survivor going up a mountain. Competence was not rewarded even though competence had an effect on the size of the pot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not certain that would have been considered elective. But I'm not a doctor nor am I coder for medical insurance/reimbursements so, take that statement with a grain of salt.

By the standard of "it was scheduled for the next day", so it's elective, it was. That's why I think "scheduled" as a synonym for "elective" is ridiculous.
Tom

Many fields have their own meanings for common words. No simple, correct term exists for something, a word that can serve ends up hijacked into doing the job.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, hence why he and I both discussed some aspect of obscene naivety being used to push agendas.

Let me know when you understand the difference between specialized vocabulary and the vernacular.
Tom

Please let us know when you have learned that vernacular is intentionally laced with medical jargon by anti-abortion zealots in deliberate attempts to misinform.

Let me know when you realize that the vernacular is what most of us mean by words.

When I was a student there were mandatory subjects and elective subjects. What does that have to do with medical jargon?
Tom

The thing is the argument is based on deliberately misusing the medical term.

In the medical world you have stat and elective. You can refuse a stat. You can even preemptively exclude a stat--that's what a DNR order does. CPR inherently is stat, a DNR can tell them not to do it. When the punishment crowd talks about "elective abortion" they are referring to it in the medical sense. Thus the medical meaning applies.

And I'll add another difference: elective involves proper preparation. For example, ensuring the stomach is empty before anesthesia. The trauma center, they live with that, take what precautions they can, they accept the risk is higher.

 

[Politesse]

I'll take the last few posts as a win.
Tom

That does not follow from your premises.

 

[Bomb#20]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

Can you please PM me your dictionary, so I can better understand the meaning of the words you have arbitrarily decided to redefine?

All this squabbling over the definition of "elective" is in service of shedding heat instead of light. It doesn't matter which procedures are labeled "elective" -- a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The reason it is being fought over is because some posters here are peddling a false narrative about their opponents. The elephant in the room is this:

LD has stated that he supports a women deciding to abort three days prior to delivery for any reason. I respect that he has that opinion, but I very strongly disagree with it. ... I'm not willing to pretend it's okay to kill a baby two weeks before delivery without a very solid medical reason to do so.

What you don't understand is that this isn't actually the issue. ... We have no credible reports of third trimester abortions other than due to defects. ...

Loren and some others have been systematically misrepresenting Emily and some others as believing medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen as a result of hearing about elective late-term abortions and misunderstanding the word "elective", thinking it means "medically unnecessary". That is fractally wrong. You can't prove something doesn't happen by making up a stupid reason to think it happens and imputing that reason to your opponent. Even if Emily really believed in them for that stupid a reason it would not be evidence against them; moreover, she does not. Emily and some others believe medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen because they happen.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190

The author interviewed 28 women who had obtained late-term abortions and she reported their reasons. Developmental defects were the most common reason, certainly, but not the only reason. Some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because of difficulty raising the money for it or because of other obstacles our society put in their paths; and, perhaps surprisingly, some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because they didn't know they were pregnant.

So let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

 

[ZiprHead]

The Missouri Supreme Court has struck down several anti abortion laws passed after a public referendum placing abortion rights into the state constitution. Planned Parenthood stated they will resume prescribing abortion medication pills.

 

[Elixir]

let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

I’d favor abolishing it altogether. Its only common use outside of its legitimate medical meaning, is to portray women who have abortions as baby killers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

Can you please PM me your dictionary, so I can better understand the meaning of the words you have arbitrarily decided to redefine?

All this squabbling over the definition of "elective" is in service of shedding heat instead of light. It doesn't matter which procedures are labeled "elective" -- a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Oh sure... how we word something has absolutely no impact on how people perceive things. That is why sodas went from Diet to Zero to get men to drink it. Or, let's look at the historical issue with gay marriage and how the question was worded impacted the response.

The reason it is being fought over is because some posters here are peddling a false narrative about their opponents. The elephant in the room is this:

LD has stated that he supports a women deciding to abort three days prior to delivery for any reason. I respect that he has that opinion, but I very strongly disagree with it. ... I'm not willing to pretend it's okay to kill a baby two weeks before delivery without a very solid medical reason to do so.

What you don't understand is that this isn't actually the issue. ... We have no credible reports of third trimester abortions other than due to defects. ...​

Doesn't look like an elephant to me. Emily says she wants abortion rights as protected under Roe v Wade and wants to have protocols for third trimester procedures. Protocols that will interfere with access to needed health care. Because random last second... oh for no reason in general... abortions happen. Yes, they probably do happen. They also probably don't occur enough to warrant interfering with a woman who needs desperate health care, not physicians calling the hospital lawyers.

So let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

The term "elective" is very much used to provide the illusion that these procedures to save the life of the woman are merely a choice. You might want to give it a rest, but it is used negatively like that.

 

[Toni]

If it is scheduled, it’s considered ‘elective.’

Not by me.
Tom

Can you please PM me your dictionary, so I can better understand the meaning of the words you have arbitrarily decided to redefine?

All this squabbling over the definition of "elective" is in service of shedding heat instead of light. It doesn't matter which procedures are labeled "elective" -- a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Oh sure... how we word something has absolutely no impact on how people perceive things. That is why sodas went from Diet to Zero to get men to drink it. Or, let's look at the historical issue with gay marriage and how the question was worded impacted the response.

The reason it is being fought over is because some posters here are peddling a false narrative about their opponents. The elephant in the room is this:

LD has stated that he supports a women deciding to abort three days prior to delivery for any reason. I respect that he has that opinion, but I very strongly disagree with it. ... I'm not willing to pretend it's okay to kill a baby two weeks before delivery without a very solid medical reason to do so.

What you don't understand is that this isn't actually the issue. ... We have no credible reports of third trimester abortions other than due to defects. ...​

Doesn't look like an elephant to me. Emily says she wants abortion rights as protected under Roe v Wade and wants to have protocols for third trimester procedures. Protocols that will interfere with access to needed health care. Because random last second... oh for no reason in general... abortions happen. Yes, they probably do happen. They also probably don't occur enough to warrant interfering with a woman who needs desperate health care, not physicians calling the hospital lawyers.

So let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

The term "elective" is very much used to provide the illusion that these procedures to save the life of the woman are merely a choice. You might want to give it a rest, but it is used negatively like that.

I think that the term elective is used appropriately for medical purposes by the medical community. Abortions are either natural ( what we call miscarriage) or scheduled.

Politicians and those seeking to control women use the term elective to make it appear to be a trivial decision made by unserious women on a whim. Like cutting bangs. Obviously immoral and murdering an innocent baby that those same politicians do not give a damn about until he is 18 and old enough to be drafted and to vote. If it’s a she, well they won’t care again until she is pregnant, at which point they only care that she not choose to terminate the pregnancy

Lather rinse repeat.

 

[TomC]

Politicians and those seeking to control

Honestly, I think you could stop right there. People who want wealth and power, with little or no regard for anyone else, will use the tactics that currently dominate the government in the US. The Democrats are no angels, but the teaparty Republicans are taking it to a whole new level! From women to immigrants to queers, their "crueler than thou" proposals and legislation are trashing my country. But you can bet that their deep state backers are thrilled and making bank.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

The Missouri Supreme Court has struck down several anti abortion laws passed after a public referendum placing abortion rights into the state constitution. Planned Parenthood stated they will resume prescribing abortion medication pills.

It should be noted that this year there is a stunningly dishonest bait-and-switch campaign trying to overturn that with both a draconian ban on abortion AND on trans healthcare.

They have named it "amendment 3" on the ballot, where the original was ALSO "amendment 3".

The Court had to explicitly force them to word the amendment text so as to be very clear that a "yes" vote would repeal the referendum allowing abortion that previously had passed and is the cause for this resumption of care, because as expected, it was confusingly worded so as to seem a yes vote protected women, and all the organizations trying to push this bullshit and advertise it are saying that voting "yes" would protect women... When it would really just place most anyone not of Men under Men.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren and some others have been systematically misrepresenting Emily and some others as believing medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen as a result of hearing about elective late-term abortions and misunderstanding the word "elective", thinking it means "medically unnecessary". That is fractally wrong. You can't prove something doesn't happen by making up a stupid reason to think it happens and imputing that reason to your opponent. Even if Emily really believed in them for that stupid a reason it would not be evidence against them; moreover, she does not. Emily and some others believe medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen because they happen.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190

The author interviewed 28 women who had obtained late-term abortions and she reported their reasons. Developmental defects were the most common reason, certainly, but not the only reason. Some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because of difficulty raising the money for it or because of other obstacles our society put in their paths; and, perhaps surprisingly, some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because they didn't know they were pregnant.

So let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

I was expecting this to be the same research that Emily previously linked that I said didn't feel like proper research. Nope, this isn't that study--or is it? Methodology sounds just like the other one (really, now, your best way of finding information is interviewing people you don't even have evidence actually had an abortion? They start out with distributing fliers to women who got an abortion, but also then distributed them by many other channels), this one is devoid of any sort of table and feels even fishier than the previous one.

Also, digging to see what I could learn I find the organization that provided the grant was funded by Buffet. But the year this was published is the last year that group operated. Buffet isn't funding them anymore.

Why do I find this whole saga extremely suspect?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think that the term elective is used appropriately for medical purposes by the medical community. Abortions are either natural ( what we call miscarriage) or scheduled.

You can have an emergency abortion. Say, partial placental separation (I don't recall the medical term) that's bleeding. The only way to stop the bleeding is surgical abortion or hysterectomy. Or, the preferred method of the reich: death.

 

[TomC]

I think that the term elective is used appropriately for medical purposes by the medical community. Abortions are either natural ( what we call miscarriage) or scheduled.

My sister got knocked up by a dumbass. They were using the "rhythm method". She called an abortion clinic and two hours later left the clinic pregnancy free. He, she, and the baby were all healthy. The parents killed their baby because they didn't want to be responsible for a child.
But the abortion was not scheduled, she just walked in, he paid, and it was over. It was an elective abortion. As opposed to my mom's, where a medical disaster was dealt with the next day. But by medical jargon standards that was the elective abortion, but my sister's was not.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Loren and some others have been systematically misrepresenting Emily and some others as believing medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen as a result of hearing about elective late-term abortions and misunderstanding the word "elective", thinking it means "medically unnecessary". That is fractally wrong. You can't prove something doesn't happen by making up a stupid reason to think it happens and imputing that reason to your opponent. Even if Emily really believed in them for that stupid a reason it would not be evidence against them; moreover, she does not. Emily and some others believe medically unnecessary late-term abortions happen because they happen.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190

The author interviewed 28 women who had obtained late-term abortions and she reported their reasons. Developmental defects were the most common reason, certainly, but not the only reason. Some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because of difficulty raising the money for it or because of other obstacles our society put in their paths; and, perhaps surprisingly, some of the women hadn't aborted earlier because they didn't know they were pregnant.

So let's give the competitive "elective" definition a rest, hmm?

I was expecting this to be the same research that Emily previously linked that I said didn't feel like proper research. Nope, this isn't that study--or is it? Methodology sounds just like the other one (really, now, your best way of finding information is interviewing people you don't even have evidence actually had an abortion? They start out with distributing fliers to women who got an abortion, but also then distributed them by many other channels), this one is devoid of any sort of table and feels even fishier than the previous one.

Also, digging to see what I could learn I find the organization that provided the grant was funded by Buffet. But the year this was published is the last year that group operated. Buffet isn't funding them anymore.

Why do I find this whole saga extremely suspect?

Because it's extremely suspicious.

Most right-wing "research" ends up being shaped like this, designed to reach conclusions rather than being designed to reach the truth.