Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Jimmy Higgins]

Doors

Why do you keep saying that when there are doors everywhere people need them
Tom

Not all women’s locker rooms/showers in gyms, pools, etc, have individual stalls with doors. Bathrooms do.

What do you mean by bathroom?
I get the impression that you are confusing facilities for the public stuff like excretion and bathing rooms.
They are very different.
Tom

I hope Toni doesn't need to see an optician after reading that one.

 

[Toni]

Doors

Why do you keep saying that when there are doors everywhere people need them
Tom

Not all women’s locker rooms/showers in gyms, pools, etc, have individual stalls with doors. Bathrooms do.

What do you mean by bathroom?
I get the impression that you are confusing facilities for the public stuff like excretion and bathing rooms.
They are very different.
Tom

Public bathrooms have individual stalls with doors. They should not be an issue for trans women, unless they do something egregious like start waving their dick ( if they still have one) around outside the stalls.

Where things get problematic for some women is in locker rooms and showers. Those do not necessarily have individual stalls with doors. This creates the potential for fear, trauma, PTSD if women are to be expected to not care about naked male bodies with exposed next to them in the shower or dressing area.

This has been discussed exhaustively upthread so I’m not repeating it here.

 

[Emily Lake]

What I...

...have been trying to explain is that IN THAT MOMENT women [do not] need something to indicate that the person before them with an exposed naked penis [genitals] is...

..Anything other than someone exposing their genitals inappropriately so as to know that they are a pervert and sex offender.

Let me get this straight, just so we're crystal fucking clear.

You believe that a full grown adult male of the human species, with a sex offender record for serious offenses, should be allowed by law to go into the female showers and changing rooms at the local community pool and watch little girls change. And the girls and their parents should have no say about that at all... as long as he doesn't actually get his dick out.

Do you not see any potential problems with that?

The devil is in the details.

What exactly "sex offenses" were committed? Was there an actual attack, or is the "sex offense" simply being there without causing harm? There is enough distortion by the anti-trans crowd that I suspect the latter.

It's like that UK "study" that lumped everything from eyes lingering too long (something unprovable) up through rape in counting "offenses".

In this thread, we learn that Loren believes non-consenting voyeurism should be legal. Women should not have the right to deny men the ability to look at them naked.

 

[Emily Lake]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

 

[Emily Lake]

We can't stop all creep behavior, we can reduce it.

… by allowing any male human who says they feel like a “woman” to access areas where female humans are naked and vulnerable?

 

[Emily Lake]

A serious question: I get that many women may be uncomfortable with a trans woman with a penis in the women's locker room. But at the same time, a trans woman with boobs would look out of place in a men's locker room too.
Barring individual dressing rooms, which most gyms don't have, what should be the solution?

A transwoman with boobs would look out of place in a men's locker room, but they would not be looked at as a threat per se by the other occupants. At least no more than an undressed biological male also in the locker room. I don't think anyone would have a traumatizing reaction to seeing that, but likely the incident would end up being mentioned at the company water cooler the next day, accompanied by a few chuckles.

The threat goes the other way around--conservative areas, they might be attacked.

“Might be”? So you’re worried about a hypothetical harm, based on fears and feelings then?

But of course, only when those fears and feelings befall male human beings. If female humans have them, well, those buddies are being oversensitive and making a big deal out of nothing.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm looking at what's going to happen--doesn't mean I support what's going to happen, just that I'm willing to consider scenarios with no good outcome. People will not want to pay the costs associated with retrofitting doors into changing rooms etc.

You are looking at this in isolation, I'm looking at it as part of the attempt to make it impossible to be trans. It's an impractical evasion to "answer" the question of where should they go after the trans-hunters got caught not being able to answer that question.

You’re trying to make it impossible to be a woman, period.

All I’m asking for is doors.

You’re the one whining about too much money I guess you are not the supporter of trans women you like to claim to be.

You're not understanding. I'm saying people won't agree with spending the money your doors answer entails.

And it's not making it impossible to be a woman. You're objecting to the status quo--which doesn't seem to be causing any big problems.

If getting an F ID is the magic pass why do the news stories always be like this one:

Fruitland Park church employee arrested on video voyeurism charges after hidden-camera videos found, deputies say

A Lake County man was arrested on video voyeurism charges after investigators say hidden-camera videos and images were found on a work computer and a cloud drive.

www.clickorlando.com

Hidden cam, not F ID.

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

But the fears of male-women are totally real and need to be taken very seriously. Obviously it’s only the female type of woman that gets worked up over nothing and just needs to calm down…

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

Loren is one of those people who totally lacks empathy. He is unable to imagine anyone feeling differently than he does. I'm not writing this as snark or a dig. It's just a realization that I've come to (over and over and over again) and wasted a lot of time trying to convince him otherwise. I'm only writing this to save you some time.

Look in a mirror. You're asking for empathy to avoid scaring you when the alternative is getting people killed. Some empathy for them??

How many male-wearing men have been killed in male intimate spaces in the US? Where’s your solid scientific evidence for your assertion?

You demand loads and loads of evidence when it’s female-women exposed to risk, but none at all when it’s male-women.

My conclusion is that you give zero fucks for the well being of female humans.

 

[Emily Lake]

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

That is literally non-responsive to my question.

Your question presupposes that women should be expected to have our rights overridden by the desire of some men to be affirmed and validated as something they categorically are not.

The actual alternative in my view is that a whole lot of women will end up being excluded from full participation in society. When the female single-sex space becomes a mixed-sex space, a lot of women will stop using them.

No, my question was a hypothetical. It presupposed nothing of the sort. I expect that sometime in the future (maybe not in my lifetime or your lifetime), transgendered people will be accepted into such spaces because people in society will have adapted (willingly or not) without losing that "full participation" in society

Sure. That will happen when society decides that everything should be mixed sex. Because separating intimate spaces the basis of private thoughts and beliefs is absurd and dumb.

Mixed sex will happen when either 1) men stop committing sexual offenses at rates no higher than female humans or 2) society decides women don’t matter and we become second class citizens.

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

And they’ve resulted in increased offenses against women, ranging from assaults to hidden video being posted online and in porn sites.

 

[Emily Lake]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

As usual with the human situation, a small fraction of a population causes the large majority of the damage. But we do.
Tom

All true. And societies (d?)evolve to deal with those issues. Stigmatizing a group for the behavior of small fraction is a warning sign of bigotry.

Which society has evolved to date that reduces the rate of male offenses to no more than that of females?

 

[Toni]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

 

[crazyfingers]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

 

[Toni]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

Of course #NotAllMen. But Loren is one of those people who are fond of posting statistics and statistics show that most violent crime is committed by men. Most rapes are committed by men. Most assaults, most murders, etc. etc. are committed by men, by substantial margins.

My entire point in all of this is that a number of male posters expect women to welcome trans women into women only spaces (and of course we should, I do not disagree) but refuse to comprehend the reticence of a lot of women to wish to have transwomen who still have penises in showers or locker rooms where we are undressed because it simply is not possible to tell by looking which male (and people with penises look male) are threats when they are unexpectedly in women only spaces and which ones are just one of us girls.

Most people (of any sex/gender/age) experience violence at the hands of someone they know, often someone they know quite well. This is particularly true of sexual assault. Proximity provides access and opportunity. Too often the person who assaults us, who rapes us or tries to rape us is someone in our group of trusted people: fathers, uncles, grandfathers, teachers, coaches, ministers/priests/youth group or scout leaders, boyfriends or husbands, cousins, brothers, the guy we went out with, the uber driver, the doctor, the friend of our brother or cousin or, neighbor. You get the picture. It's rarely a stranger. Almost always for most of us, we can trust any of these guys. But unfortunately some of us learn at a very young age that some of these people cannot be trusted.

So it's pretty.....rich to read men telling me that women who are hesitant about welcoming trans women who retain a penis and perhaps deliberately other masculine features that we are bigots for objecting to seeing a person with an exposed penis next to us at the gym shower room. Frankly, it could be at the best, startling, and it could be traumatizing for the cis and for the trans women. PTSD is very real. Upthread, I recounted how, standing in my childhood kitchen, washing dishes, I very nearly stabbed my sister in the stomach when she came up behind me and startled me the way kids do. Because the person who assaulted me was very fond of sneaking up behind me and grabbing...various body parts. Or simply acting like a normal person as I knew him when he wasn't being someone who assaulted me, tried to rape me, or once, tried to murder me. I just never knew. Frankly, that is one of t he reasons I put off dating for a long time: I was worried that I'd go to the movies with some perfectly nice guy who might put his arm across the back of my seat and I'd flip out on him. Which he wouldn't have deserved. I had never heard of PTSD and wouldn't hear of it for another decade or two but that's what I was worried about. Not me getting hurt but me hurting someone who did not deserve it.

Which is why I wholeheartedly advocate for shower and dressing room stalls with doors. Women's bathrooms already have doors so there's much less risk of being inadvertently startled or frightened.

Loren prefers to call me a bigot and tell me in the same breath that protecting women (cis and trans) from trauma or worse is too expensive. Most of the men responding in this thread think it's a non issue.

And it is.

For them.

I mean what a perfect set up: They get to get rid of transwomen who make them uncomfortable by forcing them on women, get to call women ugly names for objecting, get to object to small measures that would make everyone feel safer and they get to further groom women into believing that we have zero right to any sort of privacy or bodily autonomy and are subject to whatever men say is good for us.

Not directed at you, personally but:

Fuck that noise and the SOB it rode in on.

 

[Emily Lake]

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women.

I applaud your desire to be kind and protect everyone, but the stats that show comparable rates of victimization usually include a very disproportionate volume of trans prostitutes.

I by no means think the assault of prostitutes is acceptable, but it creates an apples-to-onions comparison. When extremely high risk behaviors like such are controlled for, the stats are no longer comparable.

Furthermore, the stats on sexual victimization don’t separate transwomen from transmen… and that’s where things get eye-opening. The rate for transwomen specifically, controlling for prostitution, is much lower than for female-women. The rate for transmen is higher than for other females, and very often occurred prior to their identification as transmen. There’s some reason to believe that many transmen identify as such as a coping mechanism for those assaults. They’re fleeing womanhood and the pain their sexed bodies resulted in. Because they are female.

Holy cow typing on a phone sucks. Autocorrect is the worst.

 

[Emily Lake]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

If we have to type “not all men” every fucking time, I’m going to lose my shit. Grow a thicker skin.

 

[Jarhyn]

They’re fleeing womanhood and the pain their sexed bodies resulted in. Because they are female

Look at this ignorant shit.

Mind reader, she is.

Obviously omniscient this one is (despite the idea of omniscience itself being nonsense).

Then, what can you do about someone who thinks that all trans people have just been taken in by memes? Someone who believes that sich behavior having a biological basis just isn't possible? Nope, she thinks all trans people have ulterior motives relating to the people she hates.

That said there is a bit of truth here in that having a body whose features are forced to express in some sexed way that is incompatible with your brain biology will cause great pain and drive someone to seek transition (to correct this disparity).

But it's not "sexual victimization" or wider culture that drives this, as Emily insists with the opening of that same paragraph. Except maybe for Emily. Because she's painting a very interesting picture of what appears to be her own mirror.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

I bolded the part of Toni's post that is probably the most important here. I think Emily Lake ventures on it too. Transgenders wouldn't need to consider going to the women's locker room for safety if the environment in the men's locker room was a problem. This is sort of the double whammy. Some men are suggesting that transgenders should be tolerated in the women's locker room because forcing tolerance in the men's locker room is a bridge too far.

To make matters worse, a number of other males (a subset of transgenders should not be allowed in the women's locker room) are also denying that transgenders are a thing. They call it a "choice" or a "mental illness". Which self-perpetuates the problem of transgenders needing another space because of the hostility that will exist in the one they are "supposed" to use by the same men who also say transgenders shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker room.

So subsets of men are both the cause of the problem that creates the hostility and the indifference of the impact of shifting the problem onto women, who up to this point, haven't really had any involvement in the issue at hand.

 

[Toni]

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women.

I applaud your desire to be kind and protect everyone, but the stats that show comparable rates of victimization usually include a very disproportionate volume of trans prostitutes.

I by no means think the assault of prostitutes is acceptable, but it creates an apples-to-onions comparison. When extremely high risk behaviors like such are controlled for, the stats are no longer comparable.

Furthermore, the stats on sexual victimization don’t separate transwomen from transmen… and that’s where things get eye-opening. The rate for transwomen specifically, controlling for prostitution, is much lower than for female-women. The rate for transmen is higher than for other females, and very often occurred prior to their identification as transmen. There’s some reason to believe that many transmen identify as such as a coping mechanism for those assaults. They’re fleeing womanhood and the pain their sexed bodies resulted in. Because they are female.

Holy cow typing on a phone sucks. Autocorrect is the worst.

I'm not that certain how much it matters who gets raped more. I do not find it surprising that transmen have a higher incidence of rape prior to (or concurrent to) identifying as trans. I very much understand that sometimes rape is used to 'keep women in their place' which happens also before the victim can be termed a woman.

I only specifically named transwomen because I'm f ucking sick of being called trans exclusionary.

What is much more relevant is the fact that men are much more likely to commit violence, including sexual violence, compared with women.

 

[Toni]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

I bolded the part of Toni's post that is probably the most important here. I think Emily Lake ventures on it too. Transgenders wouldn't need to consider going to the women's locker room for safety if the environment in the men's locker room was a problem. This is sort of the double whammy. Some men are suggesting that transgenders should be tolerated in the women's locker room because forcing tolerance in the men's locker room is a bridge too far.

To make matters worse, a number of other males (a subset of transgenders should not be allowed in the women's locker room) are also denying that transgenders are a thing. They call it a "choice" or a "mental illness". Which self-perpetuates the problem of transgenders needing another space because of the hostility that will exist in the one they are "supposed" to use by the same men who also say transgenders shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker room.

So subsets of men are both the cause of the problem that creates the hostility and the indifference of the impact of shifting the problem onto women, who up to this point, haven't really had any involvement in the issue at hand.

I think you mean transgendered individuals would NOT need to go into women's locker rooms.....

Safety for transwomen is a big part of the issue. But the fact is that a trans individual will probably want and feel most comfortable using facilities that match with their gender. Trans women want to be in women's rooms because they are women and I can totally understand how/why having to use the male facilities would feel like a pretty major violation, even if violence towards them were not a concern.

 

[Toni]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

If we have to type “not all men” every fucking time, I’m going to lose my shit. Grow a thicker skin.

I don't always type it but at this point, when I do, there's a 50/50 chance that it's at least partly ironic, and sometimes partly a big FU. It is fucking exhausting.

We all know that not all men are violent, commit assaults, rapes, murders. We all know that women are sometimes violent, commit rapes, assaults, murders.

We know that a large portion of victims, male and female do not report rape.

We know that a majority of violent crimes are committed by males.

But sincerely, we all know #NotAllMen. Even if we do not type it every single time.