Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Jimmy Higgins]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

I bolded the part of Toni's post that is probably the most important here. I think Emily Lake ventures on it too. Transgenders wouldn't need to consider going to the women's locker room for safety if the environment in the men's locker room was a problem. This is sort of the double whammy. Some men are suggesting that transgenders should be tolerated in the women's locker room because forcing tolerance in the men's locker room is a bridge too far.

To make matters worse, a number of other males (a subset of transgenders should not be allowed in the women's locker room) are also denying that transgenders are a thing. They call it a "choice" or a "mental illness". Which self-perpetuates the problem of transgenders needing another space because of the hostility that will exist in the one they are "supposed" to use by the same men who also say transgenders shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker room.

So subsets of men are both the cause of the problem that creates the hostility and the indifference of the impact of shifting the problem onto women, who up to this point, haven't really had any involvement in the issue at hand.

I think you mean transgendered individuals would NOT need to go into women's locker rooms.....

Safety for transwomen is a big part of the issue. But the fact is that a trans individual will probably want and feel most comfortable using facilities that match with their gender. Trans women want to be in women's rooms because they are women and I can totally understand how/why having to use the male facilities would feel like a pretty major violation, even if violence towards them were not a concern.

Very likely. My QA/QC of posts needs to be addressed.

 

[Toni]

And herein lies the heart of the difference. I care about "is safe" far more than about "feels safe".

And I very much oppose exposing person B to actual danger so person A can avoid a fear that does not appear to reflect reality

How many transwomen have been attacked in male restrooms?

You’re so fond of hand-waving away the accounts of women being subjected to inappropriate behavior from males in our female spaces… but you haven’t provided any evidence of the harm you claim transwomen would face.

Apparently the fears and discomfort of male-women are accepted on bare assertion, but those from female-women only count if they reach some “scientific” standard that only you can determine.

Put up or shut up.

it’s known that trans women are sexually assaulted ( by men) at rates at least as great as cis women. The concern for trans individuals’ safety is very real.

But let’s not forget the source of fear of assault and rape: men.

Who want cus women to just ignore concerns because they have no interest tion of being safer for women to be around.

If men were not violent towards women and members of the LGBTQIA+ community, cus women would have no fears of trans women in showers and locker rooms because we would have no fear of assault, rape and murder at the hands of those with male appearing bodies.

It’s women’s fault of men raise us because we dressed too sexy or were out alone too late or drank too much or were teased.

It’s women’s fault fur being ‘bigoted’ against make appearing bodies in our women’s only intimate spaces. We have to let them in because men pose such a genuine threat to trans women ( indeed, they certainly do! No sarcasm at all). But that’s women’s fault. We should all just put out on demand unless it means cheating on our husbands or boyfriends.

Men are perfect.

Some or perhaps many men, or even most, but not the broad brush all men. I have no idea how many but your post does not reflect on me.

I bolded the part of Toni's post that is probably the most important here. I think Emily Lake ventures on it too. Transgenders wouldn't need to consider going to the women's locker room for safety if the environment in the men's locker room was a problem. This is sort of the double whammy. Some men are suggesting that transgenders should be tolerated in the women's locker room because forcing tolerance in the men's locker room is a bridge too far.

To make matters worse, a number of other males (a subset of transgenders should not be allowed in the women's locker room) are also denying that transgenders are a thing. They call it a "choice" or a "mental illness". Which self-perpetuates the problem of transgenders needing another space because of the hostility that will exist in the one they are "supposed" to use by the same men who also say transgenders shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker room.

So subsets of men are both the cause of the problem that creates the hostility and the indifference of the impact of shifting the problem onto women, who up to this point, haven't really had any involvement in the issue at hand.

I think you mean transgendered individuals would NOT need to go into women's locker rooms.....

Safety for transwomen is a big part of the issue. But the fact is that a trans individual will probably want and feel most comfortable using facilities that match with their gender. Trans women want to be in women's rooms because they are women and I can totally understand how/why having to use the male facilities would feel like a pretty major violation, even if violence towards them were not a concern.

Very likely. My QA/QC of posts needs to be addressed.

It’s a huge club and you, my friend are in this club a very minor offender.

 

[Emily Lake]

*IF* trans women were genuinely only concerned about safety from other men, then they should fully support efforts to create and ensure third spaces for themselves, free from other males.

But they don’t, generally. In fact they loudly argue against such suggestions.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

 

[Jarhyn]

*IF* trans women were genuinely only concerned about safety from other men, then they should fully support efforts to create and ensure third spaces for themselves, free from other males.

But they don’t, generally. In fact they loudly argue against such suggestions.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

"A largely discriminated 1% of the population should pull themselves up by their bootstraps to get a resource just for themselves that everyone will complain having to spend 33% more than they already do on the most expensive facilities in every building anywhere when a facility already exists that serves that purpose and is sufficient under pre-existing etiquette rules".

Sure.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

And there it is again.

"The objective for Emily lake is clearly to force women into places where they will be raped because Emily lake likes rape when it happens to people she hates."

See how easy it is to just say things about the motives of others?

 

[Emily Lake]

*IF* trans women were genuinely only concerned about safety from other men, then they should fully support efforts to create and ensure third spaces for themselves, free from other males.

But they don’t, generally. In fact they loudly argue against such suggestions.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

"A largely discriminated 1% of the population should pull themselves up by their bootstraps to get a resource just for themselves that everyone will complain having to spend 33% more than they already do on the most expensive facilities in every building anywhere when a facility already exists that serves that purpose and is sufficient under pre-existing etiquette rules".

Sure.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

And there it is again.

"The objective for Emily lake is clearly to force women into places where they will be raped because Emily lake likes rape when it happens to people she hates."

See how easy it is to just say things about the motives of others?

You’re just butthurt that I don’t think you deciding to chop off your balls should give you the privilege of getting your dick out in front of real women without consent.

 

[seanie]

*IF* trans women were genuinely only concerned about safety from other men, then they should fully support efforts to create and ensure third spaces for themselves, free from other males.

But they don’t, generally. In fact they loudly argue against such suggestions.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

"A largely discriminated 1% of the population should pull themselves up by their bootstraps to get a resource just for themselves that everyone will complain having to spend 33% more than they already do on the most expensive facilities in every building anywhere when a facility already exists that serves that purpose and is sufficient under pre-existing etiquette rules".

Sure.

Because for many (not all), the objective isn’t safety from other males. The objective is access to female spaces over the objection of women.

And there it is again.

"The objective for Emily lake is clearly to force women into places where they will be raped because Emily lake likes rape when it happens to people she hates."

See how easy it is to just say things about the motives of others?

Well that's just silly.

There are very good reasons to have spaces and services segregated by sex in some circumstances.

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Women are not support animals for men.

 

[TomC]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

Other than over simplification and significant omissions, absolutely nothing.

 

[TomC]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

Other than over simplification and significant omissions, absolutely nothing.

Such as?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

Other than over simplification and significant omissions, absolutely nothing.

Such as?
Tom

Not all make humans cannot be trusted to behave properly. There are transwomen who pose no threat in any way to females. No one is claiming they are entitled to anything.

The above is not meant to be an exhaustive list.

 

[TomC]

Not all make humans cannot be trusted to behave properly. There are transwomen who pose no threat in any way to females. No one is claiming they are entitled to anything.

I agree with both of those first, as I've repeatedly pointed out.
But yeah, absolutely, there are people who claim that male women are entitled to use female facilities.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

No tom, at least not here. The closest you will find is people claiming that dividing facilities in that particular way is already problematic on its face. The problem is not in "people want to use facilities...", the problem is in "... that are or should be 'female'."

That's the contention here.

If you want to add regulations to who uses a space, the only valve the law's expectation of equal treatment provides in a world where "discrimination due to sex" is illegal is in a world where the discrimination is due to behavior."

Anything less, and it's "best faith effort" and the response ends up being in "unreturned shooting cart" territory: a taboo, but one enforceable only through social means.

Anything more, and it's making a bathroom whose common area use comes with with legal consequences for breaching etiquette as a public fixture.

 

[Toni]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

Other than over simplification and significant omissions, absolutely nothing.

Such as?
Tom

Not all make humans cannot be trusted to behave properly. There are transwomen who pose no threat in any way to females. No one is claiming they are entitled to anything.

The above is not meant to be an exhaustive list.

Well, plenty of people are claiming that trans women are entitled to female only spaces.

Questions of safety have been put forward.
A lot of insults and name calling put forth by males ( quelle surpris) when questions of safety were put forward by ( again: surprise!) women.

Two suggestions were put forth which to me, have some merit. Of course one of the suggestions was mine so I admit to some bias:

1. Doors for privacy. These are ubiquitous in women’s bathrooms but are not ubiquitous in locker room dressing rooms and showers. Doors would protect privacy for all and go a very long way towards mitigating anyone being startled or traumatized by unexpectedly being confronted with male genitalia in a women’s only space. Trauma could be experienced by both cis women and trans women, any of whom could have been victims of sexual assaults or rapes.

2. Trans individuals could be vetted by the club/facility to help ensure that persons with penises are indeed women and thus belong in women only spaces . This would give a bit of extra security to all using women only facilities.

It is more than rich to have ( straight, cis) men who have never been subjected to the threat of sexual violence from men that LGBTQIA+ individuals and women routinely face declare that there is no problem and we should just suck it up and deal ( with what straight cus men refuse to deal with or deal with by threats of violence and actual violence).

As always, women are the problems for wishing to protect ourselves.

 

[seanie]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

Other than over simplification and significant omissions, absolutely nothing.

Such as?
Tom

Not all make humans cannot be trusted to behave properly. There are transwomen who pose no threat in any way to females. No one is claiming they are entitled to anything.

The above is not meant to be an exhaustive list.

True, but a significant proportion of male humans pose a particular risk to female humans, so we segregate some spaces by sex, for reasons of privacy, dignity, and safety.

Because it's not practical to vet males on a case by case basis as to whether they pose a threat.

We keep all the males out, including the ones who say they're female.

 

[Tigers!]

Trans women are males who identify as women. Males should accept them in their spaces as fellow males, or there should be third spaces.

Bizarrely irrational isn't it?
Male humans cannot be trusted to behave properly, so therefore they are entitled to use the female facility if they want.

What is wrong with that picture?
Tom

You are not allowed to ask that question. Naughty of you.