Here Comes The Left

[ZiprHead]

All of them sound so wonderful. Has to be funded somehow though.

Make the payroll tax a flat tax on all earnings and all those problems go away.

 

[pood]

For the record: for those scared that the future of the U.S. will be that of California, let it be noted that California has the largest sub-national economy in the world, and the fourth-largest economy overall, surpassing Japan.

Wow, what a horror story!

The real horror story is not the economy, but as I mentioned the political established monopoly that exists there today. The horror story is that the people who founded the United States and California (white Europeans) are rapidly being replaced demographically over the past 10 years. By political design.

As far as economies go I would not expect California to last much longer on that front either. Detroit was once a big economy too while Henry Ford was still alive. Look at Detroit today. Musk and other successful billionaires who have helped build the economy of California are now moving their headquarters out of California now mostly because of bad local government, regulation, and taxes. Just for a moment stop to think how bad that must be for a business with huge financial investment to pull up stakes just because of local government. Who can say what California is going to look like in another 10 years?

<Deleted By Moderator> (Is that OK to say, mods? If not, please delete, and chastise as needed. Honestly, one can only take so much of this garbage from this guy).

I will dissect this stupefyingly idiotic post later, if the heat out here abates. Our AC ain’t doing so well and I am drinking beer and contemplating ice cream. I am also contemplating the cretinism of someone who thinks the fascist Elon Musk somehow helped build the economy of California, or that Detroit thrived onlly because of the fascist Henry Ford. The reasons for Detroit’s decline have nothing to do with the death of that creep. California was doing just great before the racist Musk arrived on the scene.

BTW, I lived for many years both in Detroit and California.

 

[ZiprHead]

Change can be scary, because it allows the mind to imagine all types of results.

Some changes are negative, and some changes can be predicted to have bad outcomes. Like embracing socialist policies.

As if the present policies have been so great for the American people, especially young people.

We have a huge homelessness problem. Housing is just simply unaffordable to a huge segment of the population. Hunger is on the rise and half the country is one expensive auto repair away from bankruptcy. But our billionaires are doing great.

Programs that actually help average and below average Americans are derisively called socialism and communism as if if it's still the 1950s.

This is the bullshit that will destroy our country. Not your fear mongering.

 

[ZiprHead]

The likes of Chevalier and Mamdani are not liberals, they are full on Marxists.

The 1950s called. They want there meme back.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think it's bizarre that some of you are afraid of a small number of liberal politicians who identify as Democratic Socialists

The likes of Chevalier and Mamdani are not liberals, they are full on Marxists.

This is the reason to adhering to the strengths of tradition for Governance is important. Because it should be capable of managing radicals from either wing. In NYC, Mamdani the "Marxist" can't seize the wealth of the bourgeoise. He can't seize property and redistribute it. Our Government protects things such right to property ownership.

I didn’t say he could. Mamdani is merely the mayor of NYC and doesn’t have any power to do the things you mention. But he is still a full on Marxist.

Who cares even if he were?

But there are guardrails still, at least in most states, if no longer in DC.

Thankfully. Because if he did have that kind of power, you can be sure he would be doing it. He doesn’t hide it.

It is odd that you are concerned about what Mamdani can't do verses what the idiot in the White House has done.

 

[Harry Bosch]

As somebody who grew up under actually existing socialism

I would be interested in any details you would be willing to share

I lived in Germany in the 1980s before the wall went down. I had a girlfriend in East Berlin. Traveled all over the eastern bloc. It was a hell hole. The walls were one way, designed to keep people in so that they couldn’t escape. You are younger than me. But anyone who tells you that the socialist east bloc wasn’t that bad is full of shit.

 

[pood]

We could start with Henry Ford and the Jews. We might also note that the antisemite Ford died in 1947, that his incompetence turned his car company into crap, and that the great Detroit automotive boom began in the 50s, after the fascist creep died.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

Sweden? Hmm
EU? Hmm

How you ever seen soccer fans rioting in Europe?

What the hell does that have to do with their economic systems???

Well ya see, if you raise them boys in a SOCIALIST system, they're just gonna riot all the time! You gotta give 'em a good paddlin' before they get any of those ideas into their head, I tell you hwat. Paddlin'! It stops riots (except race riots, those don't count).

 

[Derec]

I think it's bizarre that some of you are afraid of a small number of liberal politicians who identify as Democratic Socialists

No, not "liberal". Socialists despise (even American-style) liberals because they still support capitalism. If anything, the socialists tend to hate liberals more than they do conservatives.

And not a "small number" either. The number was small in 2018, when the OG Squad members were elected, but this number is far larger now. And they tend to unseat moderate Democrats, which shifts the Democratic Party to the left, and increases the polarization of US politics, which is bad for the country.

when our country is heading towards Fascism under the current administration.

We are capable of discussing more than one issue, and realizing that because one extreme is bad, the opposite extreme is not necessarily good. In US politics, both extremes are bad.

And Dems moving ever further to the Left makes it more likely that GOP will retain the control of the Senate in 2026. Susan Collins has far better chances of eking out a win against SS-Unterscharrführer Platner than against a mainstream Democrat. Mike Rogers will have much better chances of winning in Michigan if Abdul El-Sayed gets the Dem nomination.
It also makes it more likely that a Vance or a Rubio will win in 2028, depending on how the Dem primaries go.

If you don't see the obvious signs, you're not looking. Even if a handful of Democratic Socialists are elected to Congress, the US is not going to become a Socialist country.

Maybe not. But they will try to shift it that way.

The Democratic Party is a very diverse one, as I've said before, so stop acting like little frightened children and look forward to a change from what we are currently facing. under the autocratic mad man and his little sycophants.

Not all change is good. The answer to MAGA radicals should not be DSA radicals.

I just hope that more rational people will vote instead of staying home because they expect perfect candidates.

If more rational people had voted, the likes of Avila Chevalier or Melat Kiros would not have won their primaries.

 

[Derec]

Thank you for the informative yet non-responsive answer.

How is it non-responsive?

But if you need it broken down more simply: USSR was socialist, as was SFRY, although the latter was different in many aspects. Cuba is still socialist. A capitalist country like Sweden is not socialist.

 

[Derec]

Another win for the DSA:

Democratic socialist Melat Kiros poised to become the first Gen Z woman in Congress

Another "Palestine" nutjob socialist in a very safe (D+29) district. At least Hickenlooper survived the socialist insurgency.

 

[Jarhyn]

This thread belongs in the joke gallery. The USA is already the most socialist country that has ever existed. Of course, that socialism takes the form of corporate socialism, not what most people think of as socialism, although most Americans don't have a clue what recognized socialism is. If you are afraid of socialism be very afraid of the current US government and its billionaire friends.

Profits that are privatized and losses that are always socialized as too big to fail.

And are form of "asymmetry" that I personally despise.

It is more klepto-ism. Kleptism? It's conceptually like a ratchet, and this description would now be "layered" under the vernacular of the same spelling and pronunciation, but which translates as "wretched" or thereabouts.

Asymmetric "socialism" is a major part of the problem.

I think once anything with the capacity to become a person is born and can be foisted on whoever is willing to dedicate care to them, including a good number of non-human things, because they didn't explicitly ask to be born I think are owed some things, and Toni summed them up quite nicely.

I do think that we can attribute merit to what people are, first and foremost. We do tend to attribute merit based on accomplishments, but I place the real merit on the mechanism to achieve a result reliably, rather than the number of results the mechanism has produced.

Since there seems to be a dispute over what "real socialism" entails, in order to understand your point more clearly, which "actually existing socialism" do you mean?

"Real socialism" or "actually existing socialism" is a term of art. It refers to socialism as actually practiced in USSR, GDR, etc. as opposed to some ideal version of socialism.

Thank you for the informative yet non-responsive answer.

"All of the failed attempts at managed economic socialism, and excluding all the successful attempts at social democracies."

 

[Derec]

Some socialist policies are good, some are bad.

Which specifically socialist policies do you think are "good"?

The DSA has a very small toehold. White nationalists are running the federal gov’t. Yet the fear is about tge DSA.

Their foothold is not so small any more (it's not 2018, but 2026) and it's rapidly increasing.
One can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, and this thread is about the radical Left. There is no need for whataboutism.

Besides, Dems being associated with socialism will make it harder to win in 2028, especially if Dems nominate somebody from the Left fringe.

I didn’t say that. I am saying that the OP’s (and your) fears concern a dystopia with a very small chance materializing while ignoring the dystopian future that is actually unfolding in front of you.

Again, we can discuss more than one thing at the time. And unlike with MAGA extremists, DSA extremists enjoy a lot of support on this forum, which makes for more interesting discussions. When almost everyone agrees, it's not really a good fodder for discussion.

 

[laughing dog]

Thank you for the informative yet non-responsive answer.

How is it non-responsive?

I didn’t ask for a definition, I asked what socialist country you were. If you don’t wish to answer, fine, but I don’t want nor need a panoply of examples.

 

[laughing dog]

Some socialist policies are good, some are bad.

Which specifically socialist policies do you think are "good"?

Universal healthcare is a an example.

The DSA has a very small toehold. White nationalists are running the federal gov’t. Yet the fear is about tge DSA.

Their foothold is not so small any more (it's not 2018, but 2026) and it's rapidly increasing.
One can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, and this thread is about the radical Left. There is no need for whataboutism.

The DSA controls no county, state or country. Hell, Mandami doesn’t even control NYC. But hey, focus on the virtually nonexistent threats like Trump wants you to.

Besides, Dems being associated with socialism will make it harder to win in 2028, especially if Dems nominate somebody from the Left fringe.

They are already associated with socialism.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I said I was going to wait a few months to check again, but it's not like it's a strict rule or anything. Anyway...

*Checks to see if NYC is in smoldering ruins or economic collapse or taken over by Sharia law*

Nope still fine.

 

[Elixir]

focus on the virtually nonexistent threats like Trump wants you to.

Indeed. Derec needs very little instruction tho.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think it's bizarre that some of you are afraid of a small number of liberal politicians who identify as Democratic Socialists

No, not "liberal". Socialists despise (even American-style) liberals because they still support capitalism. If anything, the socialists tend to hate liberals more than they do conservatives.

And not a "small number" either. The number was small in 2018, when the OG Squad members were elected, but this number is far larger now. And they tend to unseat moderate Democrats, which shifts the Democratic Party to the left, and increases the polarization of US politics, which is bad for the country.

Donald Trump held a riot to retain the Presidency... and half of the GOP in the House voted to support the throwing out of the election results. And when that didn't work, the GOP in the House and Senate en masse saved his ass from impeachment! That isn't hyperbole, that is historical fact. I don't want to read about how getting some people on the farther out portions of the left into Congress is "bad for the country". Our democracy has Stage 3 cancer right now. It was Stage 1 when Gingrich became the Speaker of the House.

when our country is heading towards Fascism under the current administration.

We are capable of discussing more than one issue, and realizing that because one extreme is bad, the opposite extreme is not necessarily good. In US politics, both extremes are bad.

And Dems moving ever further to the Left makes it more likely that GOP will retain the control of the Senate in 2026.

The Democrats have shifted so far to the center since the 90s! Shifting to the left from where they are now would likely get it back to moderate.

Susan Collins has far better chances of eking out a win against SS-Unterscharrführer Platner than against a mainstream Democrat. Mike Rogers will have much better chances of winning in Michigan if Abdul El-Sayed gets the Dem nomination.
It also makes it more likely that a Vance or a Rubio will win in 2028, depending on how the Dem primaries go.

If you don't see the obvious signs, you're not looking. Even if a handful of Democratic Socialists are elected to Congress, the US is not going to become a Socialist country.

Maybe not. But they will try to shift it that way.

You apparently have no faith in the US Economic engine and it's ability to be survive. Heck, with all the consolidation, it won't require all too much to maintain a general status quo.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

Sweden? Hmm
EU? Hmm

How you ever seen soccer fans rioting in Europe?

What the hell does that have to do with their economic systems???

Well ya see, if you raise them boys in a SOCIALIST system, they're just gonna riot all the time! You gotta give 'em a good paddlin' before they get any of those ideas into their head, I tell you hwat. Paddlin'! It stops riots (except race riots, those don't count).

I almost forgot!

*Spits in spittoon*

 

[Tigers!]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

Sweden? Hmm
EU? Hmm

How you ever seen soccer fans rioting in Europe?

What the hell does that have to do with their economic systems???

Playball40 made the claim that "Norway, Sweden, Denmark ....... are BETTER than what we have here in the US."

I agree that the US is much better than Europe with gun violence but civil unrest in towns is more prevalent in Europe than the US. Too much of it seems to be after soccer matches. (From what I seen on gteh news and online)
Economic systems have an influence on public behaviour and attitudes and vice-versa.