Roe v Wade is on deck

[Tigers!]

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

Ok, this is just an absurd claim to make. Fully functional? Really?

At that stage of its lifecycle yes.
A person goes through various stages of their lifecycle as they live. At every stage they are fully functional (useless injury, illness intervents) at that stage.
Obviously there will be different capabilities depending upon the stage. Fully human at every stage.

 

[Elixir]

At every stage they are fully functional

Wow, god sure is casual about disposing of fully functional humans!

Perplexity
“There isn’t a single precise global count, but a reasonable estimate is that tens of millions of fertilized human eggs are spontaneously lost each year worldwide. A commonly cited range is that about 40% to 60% of embryos are lost between fertilization and birth.”

It’s a tough pill to swallow, but it appears that the number of fully functional humans that god may have killed during my lifetime, could exceed the entire population of functional humans on the planet!* And maybe so many, that it would still be the case even if every woman on the planet was pregnant today and you counted the embryos, blastocysts and fetuses as “functional human population” stats.

* or maybe you’re wrong about that functional human thing.

 

[Toni]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

 

[Toni]

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

Ok, this is just an absurd claim to make. Fully functional? Really?

At that stage of its lifecycle yes.
A person goes through various stages of their lifecycle as they live. At every stage they are fully functional (useless injury, illness intervents) at that stage.
Obviously there will be different capabilities depending upon the stage. Fully human at every stage.

Obviously untrue in any medical or biological sense nor in any legal or moral sense.

 

[Bomb#20]

You’re committing an equivocation fallacy. She said “a human”, using the noun; you said “human”, the adjective. Not the same thing at all. A Petri dishfull of Henrietta Lacks’ cultured cancer tumor cells is human, but it isn’t a human.

A human can be a noun and an adjective at the same time.
Yet you were once a 12 week foetus and you are, were, will be just as human then as when you reply to this message.

And you were once an unfertilized ovum, and at that time you were just as human as you are now. And maybe the medical school has my removed tumor growing in a vat, and after I’m dead it will still be alive and just as human as it was when it was part of me. You haven’t provided any evidence that when I was a 12 week fetus I was a human; you only showed I was human, which isn’t worth a plug tumor.

 

[laughing dog]

The union of a human egg with a human sperm starts the beginning of an entity that is surely human. We call human entitys persons.

You do. We don’t. And there’s the rub.

BTW, your view means a woman impregnated by a rapist who gets an abortion in a baby killer. In fact a woman using a morning after pill is a baby killer.

I do not recall ever saying that abortion is not permissible in any circumstance. If you could remind me where I said that I would be most obliged.

That is non- responsive to my post. A fertilized egg that is surely human is surely human in every circumstance. So if an abortion is killing a human baby, that is true regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Elixir]

You’re committing an equivocation fallacy. She said “a human”, using the noun; you said “human”, the adjective. Not the same thing at all. A Petri dishfull of Henrietta Lacks’ cultured cancer tumor cells is human, but it isn’t a human.

A human can be a noun and an adjective at the same time.
Yet you were once a 12 week foetus and you are, were, will be just as human then as when you reply to this message.

And you were once an unfertilized ovum, and at that time you were just as human as you are now. And maybe the medical school has my removed tumor growing in a vat, and after I’m dead it will still be alive and just as human as it was when it was part of me. You haven’t provided any evidence that when I was a 12 week fetus I was a human; you only showed I was human, which isn’t worth a plug tumor.

And you were once the remnants of a supernova, and then your parts coalesced from the superheated clouds of remains.
But to say the universe is human, is pure poetry, not literal, useful, informative FACT.

 

[Bomb#20]

When else in considered perrmissible to kill another just because you wish too?

I dunno about “else”, but any time another organism is living on my blood oxygen, I feel quite at liberty to get rid of it.
YMMV, and it would be the height of hubris for me to dictate or restrict others’ options in that regard.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are living on your blood oxygen.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are NOT living on your blood oxygen in any meaningful sense.

So who died and left you in charge of ruling on which senses are meaningful? If your* blood oxygen level drops too much they’ll die.

(* You were the pilot, not me. If you make me the pilot the scenario doesn’t work. My passenger isn’t living on my blood oxygen— I’m not a good enough pilot. If my oxygen level drops my passenger will just take over — the only passenger I ever had was my flight instructor. )

To be more precise (as you seem to demand, and I appreciate that) they are not using your blood or other tissues as a transport medium for oxygen, nutrients, hormones, and wastes

Au contraire. That’s exactly what they’re using your blood for. If that stuff doesn’t get transported around your body, they’ll die.

or to otherwise fuel their biological functions. I think you know the qualitative difference, and that makes your response feel somewhat disingenuous.

I know the pilot scenario isn’t what you had in mind; I don’t know how you’d go about making your explanation of when you’ll feel at liberty to get rid of an organism more precise; but that’s not important since I know you can if you set your mind to it. What I don’t know that is important is why you think whatever hair-splitting distinction you’ll come up with is morally significant. Why does it make a difference whether the oxygen and nutrients they’re relying on your blood to keep transporting in order to not die are yours or theirs? It was in hope that you’d explain that that I brought up pilots.

Why is a post-viability fetus riding in your hypothetical uterus morally different from a born baby riding in a hypothetical plane you’re flying, to make you feel at liberty to get rid of one organism and not the other?

 

[thebeave]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

 

[Elixir]

When else in considered perrmissible to kill another just because you wish too?

I dunno about “else”, but any time another organism is living on my blood oxygen, I feel quite at liberty to get rid of it.
YMMV, and it would be the height of hubris for me to dictate or restrict others’ options in that regard.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are living on your blood oxygen.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are NOT living on your blood oxygen in any meaningful sense.

So who died and left you in charge of ruling on which senses are meaningful? If your* blood oxygen level drops too much they’ll die.

Who died? The fucking pilot.
Like you, I have only ever flown with a flight instructor.

(* You were the pilot, not me. If you make me the pilot the scenario doesn’t work. My passenger isn’t living on my blood oxygen— I’m not a good enough pilot. If my oxygen level drops my passenger will just take over — the only passenger I ever had was my flight instructor. )

Nobody is living on the the blood of the dead pilot from whom I had to take over, nor is anyone living on mine. There is no parasitic relationship there. To be more precise (as you seem to demand, and I appreciate that) they are not using your blood or other tissues as a transport medium for oxygen, nutrients, hormones, and wastes

Au contraire. That’s exactly what they’re using your blood for. If that stuff doesn’t get transported around your body, they’ll die.

No they won’t. It will have zero direct effect upon them. Impact with the ground might kill them, but in the meanwhile they - or someone else with equal or greater piloting skills than mine - can take a whack a piloting the plane if my blood becomes ineffective at enabling my piloting skilz.

or to otherwise fuel their biological functions. I think you know the qualitative difference, and that makes your response feel somewhat disingenuous

I know the pilot scenario isn’t what you had in mind; I don’t know how you’d go about making your explanation of when you’ll feel at liberty to get rid of an organism more precise; but that’s not important since I know you can if you set your mind to it. What I don’t know that is important is why you think whatever hair-splitting distinction you’ll come up with is morally significant.

Morally? I don’t do “morally”; that is a construct for others to employ in the dubious pursuit of passing judgment upon me.

Why does it make a difference whether the oxygen and nutrients they’re relying on your blood to keep transporting in order to not die are yours or theirs?

I did not design the human reproductive system. Your question goes back to “why” some people demand an anthropoid god.
For at least 5-6 months the fetus can die and the host (mother) can live. Vice versa, not so much.

It was in hope that you’d explain that that I brought up pilots.

You’re welcome.

Why is a post-viability fetus riding in your hypothetical uterus morally different from a born baby riding in a hypothetical plane you’re flying,

It (a baby) has experiences , acquaintances, living memories, and - more germane - is in the memories, hopes and dreams of people other than the former host (mother). That’s one big reason why, in my amoral judgment. (I don’t do “moral”) a fetus is different from a baby.

to make you feel at liberty to get rid of one organism and not the other?

I don’t have any such feeling. (Please don’t further indulge in trying to bolster your arguments by imagining/ assuming my feelings)
I “felt” compelled to help rid my wife of four ectopic implantations. Liberty has little to do with it, other than the fact that the option to save her life was not restricted (at the time) by lack of liberty.
Liberty, in this scenario, is (was) the default state. I oppose the changes to that condition that have occurred since, and “feel” very sorry for women made victims by those changes. Call that morality or immorality - I care very little for those loaded terms.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

 

[thebeave]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

 

[thebeave]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

How about we just dispense with your pointless drivel and let Toni answer the question, if she wants? This is super basic.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

How about we just dispense with your pointless drivel and let Toni answer the question, if she wants? This is super basic.

Your bullshit is pointless drivel when you can easily just deduce the answer for yourself.

 

[Toni]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Sure. But choices have consequences. If you choose not to be vaccinated without good medical reason or choose not to vaccinate your children then you may be excluded from certain places, especially schools and day cares at all levels, any congregate housing situation, some employment, and some other venues and even some transportation such as planes and busses and trains

You have the right to assume risk yourself but you do not have the right to impose additional risk on others.

Before anyone gets all up in arms about this: my employer required vaccinations against influenza, hepatitis, and tetanus and I believe MMR. Prior to Trump and people like RFK Jr. this was not controversial. Thankfully there are vaccinations against chickenpox and hepatitis which did not exist when I was a kid and also against HPV.

When my oldest was a child, there were no vaccines against chickenpox most kids got it. And for most kids it was not a problem but it could be a serious inconvenience for families as contagious children were excluded from daycare and school. But kids are often contagious before they show signs of the illness, which helps spread it. A child in my son’s kindergarten class was undergoing treatment for leukemia. He was tolerating chemo well and dye not miss much school. But he caught chickenpox and it very nearly killed him. I knew a child hospitalized with encephalitis from chickenpox. Pregnant women who contract chickenpox are at very grave risk for death for themselves and their fetus. We know that rubella can cause birth defects in a fetus, and that untreated HPV can cause birth defects in a developing fetus and serious illness if not detected and the baby is delivered marginally.

I think that unless medical condition make it unwise to be vaccinated, we are morally obligated to be vaccinated in order to protect ourselves and those who are unable to be vaccinated.

It us not really different than being required to keep your property free from garbage which can attract rats and other animals or to fail to maintain property so that it creates a health and safety risk to our neighbors and the community at large.

 

[Toni]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

How about we just dispense with your pointless drivel and let Toni answer the question, if she wants? This is super basic.

Your bullshit is pointless drivel when you can easily just deduce the answer for yourself.

Fwiw: in my last post just posted, I did state that vaccinations should be mandatory unless medically contraindicated.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

How about we just dispense with your pointless drivel and let Toni answer the question, if she wants? This is super basic.

Your bullshit is pointless drivel when you can easily just deduce the answer for yourself.

Fwiw: in my last post just posted, I did state that vaccinations should be mandatory unless medically contraindicated.

Oh OK, I was wrong. My bad.

 

[ZiprHead]

When else in considered perrmissible to kill another just because you wish too?

I dunno about “else”, but any time another organism is living on my blood oxygen, I feel quite at liberty to get rid of it.
YMMV, and it would be the height of hubris for me to dictate or restrict others’ options in that regard.

If you’re piloting a plane, your passengers are living on your blood oxygen.

While the human body does expel a small amount of oxygen, it's far less than it takes in. The oxygen must be present before hand to be breathed in. If outside oxygen isn't added to the system, everyone will slowly die from the lack of oxygen.

 

[Toni]

Why is the fetus, completely dependent on t upon the woman, considered to have its life presumed to take precedence over hers?

I really wish you and others would be honest about this interaction. Nobody is saying that that baby's life takes precedence over the mother's life (beyond the viability threshold, of course). I'm saying that the baby's life takes precedence over the mother's feelings from that point on. Not because a baby is more important than the mother, but because life is more important than feelings.

If there's a risk to the mother's life, then by all means the mother wins out. If there's no risk, however, I simply don't condone the murder of a baby.

Why are women not worthy of bodily autonomy?

Oh come on. Women are worthy of bodily autonomy... but bodily autonomy doesn't grant women the privilege to murder people.

There’s the major difference: I don’t consider having an abortion to be murder.

And there is the hinge of the whole discussion. It is ok to kill another human and when (and why)?

With respect to my own decision making, back when that was an issue, I have my own pretty sure it would be a definite yes ( or n) to having an abortion.

But: I also remember very well when I thought I opposed abortion, certainly fur myself, but them came a very brief amount of time when I was very much afraid I was pregnant and very much would NOT under any circumstances have continued the pregnancy even if it meant ending my own life to end the pregnancy: I just don’t judge. As best as possible and while I am very much a flawed human being, I keep that judgment to myself. I get to make choices and judgements about my own body, my own life. Not anybody else’s .

I’ve helped people obtain abortions when I really hoped they would not. Because I did not have to live with the consequences whatever they did. Looking back at those situations I realize that in fact, I would definitely have done as they did, although I was not at the time, certain it was the ‘right’ thing.

I’ve just learned not to judge. I’ve cried with women who lost babies in the third trimester, with women who buried toddlers and who buried teenagers. The first was not the same as the other situations. Not in the recovery or bounce back period.

The women who lost pregnancies really really wanted to have those babies. They were wanted, planned for pregnancies. They were heartbroken to lose their pregnancies. But they recovered in ways that women who lost their child as a young baby, a toddler, a teen never quite did. Even if they had other children.

That is not at all a scientific observation. But it was pretty obvious.

As I’ve said: I learned not to make judgements.

But you are judging. You have judged that the unborn can be disposable in many situations.

You are judging as well.

I have never claimed otherwise. You are the one who said you were not judging.

You are placing the potential of a fully functioning human over the fact of a fully functional human female.

The foetus is not a potential fully functioning human The foetus is already a fully functional human, albeit it is at a different stage of its lifecycle.

I suspect that it’s a female life at risk is part of your calculus.

The 2 humans involved are part of my calculus. The foetus is at risk too.

I not judging what a person does with their own body.

Or rot out to another way, I don’t think that I or society have the right to dictate what another person must do with their body.

Does this apply to the anti-vaxxers as well?

Has Toni ever claimed vaccinations should be mandatory? I'm pretty sure she hasn't. There's your answer. Wow that was easy.

Did I say she did claim that? No. Wow that was easy.

No, but if she didn't claim it, there's no reason to think she holds the opinion that antivaxxers can't decide not to get vaccinated. This is super basic.

How about we just dispense with your pointless drivel and let Toni answer the question, if she wants? This is super basic.

Your bullshit is pointless drivel when you can easily just deduce the answer for yourself.

Fwiw: in my last post just posted, I did state that vaccinations should be mandatory unless medically contraindicated.

Oh OK, I was wrong. My bad.

You weren’t wrong: I did not write that earlier

You were correct about what I’d written up to that point.