A sad casualty of DEI/Woke at Cambridge University

[Toni]

Also there is zero way to determine if the highest scoring students who are offered admissions are white, Asian, Hispanic, NA, or Black. The general assumption is that Asian students have the highest scores, followed by whites and then, everybody else because who cares? They are dark skinned people and get all good things handed to them, including, of course, the assumption that they did not actually earn their place but were given it because of their race.

Who had the highest score is irrelevant.

Apparently not to those who claim that Asians are discriminated against because they get higher scores ( on average) but black people still get into medical schools.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why can't they check all his work? That's what plagiarism checking tools do--run any test document against a very wide variety of published works. It's viable to check every student's submissions, it certainly is viable to check any prospective hire's work.

Good plagiarism checkers are not free. Especially ones that would be checking tens of thousands of words in a top candidate’s publication record.

As I have noted, it is not unreasonable to expect/assume that the Phd granting institution to check dissertations for plagiarism or the journal staff to check articles for plagiarism.

They're not free, but they're cheap enough professors can routinely check student's work. They certainly can therefore check even more important stuff.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wikipedia skews left.

I think you have Wikipedia confused with reality.

Reality skews left. Wikipedia skews left of reality. Lots of cherry-picking.

 

[Elixir]

Once a willing victim, likely to remain one.
View attachment 55094

Should I be surprised, or unsurprised, that ChatGPT doesn't appear on that list?

Wins the internet for the day!

 

[Elixir]

Reality skews left. Wikipedia skews left of reality. Lots of cherry-picking.

Who is responsible for right wing illiteracy?
Wikipedia is open to critique. Give it a rip.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you think that discrimination against black people, including students stopped at any point in the last 60-70 ( or 270) years?

Because it used to be totally obvious. Now we see increasing contortions to try to torture the data into showing discrimination. And the "evidence" keeps being showing a disparate outcome while carefully not investigating possible causes. And a pile of bad data for something is actually a very strong indication that it's false.

 

[laughing dog]

And why can't they check all his work? That's what plagiarism checking tools do--run any test document against a very wide variety of published works. It's viable to check every student's submissions, it certainly is viable to check any prospective hire's work.

Good plagiarism checkers are not free. Especially ones that would be checking tens of thousands of words in a top candidate’s publication record.

As I have noted, it is not unreasonable to expect/assume that the Phd granting institution to check dissertations for plagiarism or the journal staff to check articles for plagiarism.

They're not free, but they're cheap enough professors can routinely check student's work. They certainly can therefore check even more important stuff.

The free checkers do basic checks. Better checkers cost money to use. While plagiarism checkers have the capacity to check any work, up until now, as I have repeatedly pointed out, it has been assumed (because it is the responsibility of ) the PhD granting institution to check the quality of the doctorates granted, and the journal publishers to check the quality of the articles they publish. So, there was no reason for any institution to use valuable resources in the pursuit of possible plagiarism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you think that discrimination against black people, including students stopped at any point in the last 60-70 ( or 270) years?

Really?

Do you think the discrimination against black people is the same as it was 270 years ago? Or even 60 years ago?

Surely you know the difference between stopped and lessened. So why the straw man?

It will never stop completely. If that's your bar, you're out of luck. Some people dislike those that are different from them, and it's never going to disappear. A whole lot of men really dislike women, far more than the rate at which white people dislike black people. A whole lot of people dislike catholics, or pentactosals, or pick whatever religion you want. A whole lot of people dislike the French.

And it will never stop so long as we keep emphasizing it. Discrimination is one of those things that you shouldn't look too hard for--because when you look too hard you find it whether or not it's really there.

And it provides a convenient external cause of a problem, thus allowing people to avoid looking at the internal problems. (The single parent rate has been mentioned. Another big one is the age at which a woman has her first child.)

 

[Patooka]

Once a willing victim, likely to remain one.
View attachment 55094

Should I be surprised, or unsurprised, that ChatGPT doesn't appear on that list?

Ain't that true. Should also include a listing of "unsourced images that are just text in different colors and poor punctuation". And why is the top line a darker shade of red than the rest?

Sometimes I think the IIDB forum should be included on that list. This place has really lost its way since its early days.

Well, reality does have a liberal bias so...

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you think that discrimination against black people, including students stopped at any point in the last 60-70 ( or 270) years?

Because it used to be totally obvious.

It is not totally obvious, then it cannot be discrimination is jaw droppingly brilliant. But then, you follow it with

And it will never stop so long as we keep emphasizing it. Discrimination is one of those things that you shouldn't look too hard for--because when you look too hard you find it whether or not it's really there.

Who'd have thought recognition means emphasis?
Or that looking hard for something means you find it even if it doesn't exist? Does that work for bs excuses to explain away discrimination as well?

.

And it provides a convenient external cause of a problem, thus allowing people to avoid looking at the internal problems. (The single parent rate has been mentioned. Another big one is the age at which a woman has her first child.)

How is increasingly large single parent rates a problem in discrimination since it occurs for black and white people?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

No, it doesn't. It shows a disparate outcome, it provides no evidence whether that is due to discrimination.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

Let's look at what that actually is saying. These numbers are scores of applicants. Not of admissions. Red herring.

And it still says a lot. 505 is the 70% percentile. 514 is the 92% percentile.

What do you think acceptance rate means? Asking because I don't understand your meaning.

????

This is the averages for those who applied. That doesn't mean those who were accepted have the same average--what would be surprising is if the numbers were the same.

What this data does show is who thinks they have a chance of being accepted. There will be those who score too low and know it would just be throwing away time and money to apply. And it clearly shows Asians think the bar is higher than Native Americans think the bar is. Is there some reason to believe they're wrong?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those national averages could be masking the effects of how students by race seek admission by university.

Here is a hypothetical example to illustrate a point. Two candidates with identical GPAs and identical scores- one black and one white - apply to medical school. The black applicant gets into Howard while the white doesn't get into Harvard. The black applicant did apply to Harvard and the white student didn't apply to Howard.

Now think about if the application rates to schools not only differ by race or schools but by region. It is very possible that the "discrimination" is really the outcome of other factors.

That is something to think about, especially by those who use other factors to explain away discrimination against minorities.

And what is the relevance??

The issue isn't limited to one school.

I thought you believed you were literate in math and statistics? Logic?
Maybe not.

The point is that even if true it has no bearing. Just because one person didn't apply to a particular school does not change the averages.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How does it imply that?

You need much higher grades and MCAT to get in you are white or Asian, and much lower if you are black of Hispanic.

No. That’s a specious claim based upon average GPAs and MCAT scores across racial demographics.

There is no evidence that any students who are admitted do not meet the threshold established.

You are operating under the assumption that medical schools should admit students based solely upon the the GPAs and MCAT scores, in order of highest scores, as though it were a race and the highest scores = fastest time.

When you're free to make the definition it's a useless yardstick. You can simply set it to define success.

Instead, look at the outcome. Minimum and average scores are higher for whites, even higher for Asians.

The outcome is that fewer than 1% of all medical students fail to complete their course of studies.

I believe that compares quite favorably with graduation rates at law schools and universities, including the Ivies..

So? That simply says the schools pass everyone. Says nothing about how good a doctor they are.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And why can't they check all his work? That's what plagiarism checking tools do--run any test document against a very wide variety of published works. It's viable to check every student's submissions, it certainly is viable to check any prospective hire's work.

Good plagiarism checkers are not free. Especially ones that would be checking tens of thousands of words in a top candidate’s publication record.

As I have noted, it is not unreasonable to expect/assume that the Phd granting institution to check dissertations for plagiarism or the journal staff to check articles for plagiarism.

They're not free, but they're cheap enough professors can routinely check student's work. They certainly can therefore check even more important stuff.

So what's the conspiracy? Be precise. Are you saying that Cambridge University has one of these expensive programs, that they ran it against all of Jason Arday's publications and articles over the past 10 years before hiring him, and then hid the result and hired him anyway? Who were the people involved in the conspiracy and how have they kept it a secret even up to now? If you are not saying this, then how is it that you think this is relevant?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

No, it doesn't. It shows a disparate outcome, it provides no evidence whether that is due to discrimination.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

Let's look at what that actually is saying. These numbers are scores of applicants. Not of admissions. Red herring.

And it still says a lot. 505 is the 70% percentile. 514 is the 92% percentile.

What do you think acceptance rate means? Asking because I don't understand your meaning.

????

This is the averages for those who applied.

That isn't what everyone else is saying, even those who agree with your arguments at a higher level. So where are you getting that these are averages for those who applied instead of those who matriculated? Source please with some quotes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the case of medical school admissions, I presume medical school personnel at each institution have a better idea of the qualities and characteristics that shape good physicians within the mission of the school than internet discussants who think only standardized test scores and GPAs count.

Should we conclude that the Klan has a better idea of what makes a good American than we do?

WTF???

The allegation is they are discriminating in admissions. To take their word for it that they are being honest doesn't make sense.

The Klan says blacks are inferior. Should we trust them about that? If not, why should we trust the schools with the same question?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the case of medical school admissions, I presume medical school personnel at each institution have a better idea of the qualities and characteristics that shape good physicians within the mission of the school than internet discussants who think only standardized test scores and GPAs count.

Should we conclude that the Klan has a better idea of what makes a good American than we do?

I cannot say about you but I certainly wouldn't. Are you proposing the federal gov't allow the KKK to devise and administer the US citizenship process? Or do you think Trump is surreptitiously doing that? I

I don't think special expertise or experience is required to figure out the standards and to judge what makes a "good American". I do think some special expertise and experience is required to judge what is required to succeed in medical school and to become a good doctor. So I find your question rather surprisingly inane.

Why is everyone acting like I think the Klan is good or right??

My point is that your statement amounts to "trust me, I'm innocent".

 

[Toni]

Why do you think that discrimination against black people, including students stopped at any point in the last 60-70 ( or 270) years?

Because it used to be totally obvious. Now we see increasing contortions to try to torture the data into showing discrimination. And the "evidence" keeps being showing a disparate outcome while carefully not investigating possible causes. And a pile of bad data for something is actually a very strong indication that it's false.

Just because there are no signs on water fountains or special places in movie theaters or busses doesn’t mean there is no longer discrimination.

You don’t see it just as I’m not faced with it nearly so much —-because we are white. It doesn’t affect us directly.

Frankly I’ve been ashamed of myself for believing that racism wasn’t much of an issue in academia but talking with a good friend who is Asian and a US citizen and a PhD from an excellent American university, I was stunned and deeply disturbed and ashamed as she told me stories of students who would go to administration and claim her English wasn’t good. FFS, she’s been speaking English her entire life! Yes, there’s a slight accent but it is slight and there is zero issue understanding anything says. Her command of English is far better than that of her students. But this, and the hostility in the past of some of the students is something she had to face every single day. Another friend from Australia who holds a PhDand teaches at the local university has had students ask him in class if he’s sure he belongs here. Are you kidding me? Oh, he’s not of purely European extraction so he is not blonde haired and blue eyed. He is keenly intelligent and very good in his field of study—and does sound Australian. I do tend to blame the animus against him on the rise of racism during Trump 1.0 and especially 2.0. But my other friend has dealt with racism for decades.

May I remind you that the public assumes that universities are full of leftist progressive communists and socialist? Hah!

Do people ever question your qualifications to do your job? Probably not. Fortunately administration has been supportive but can you imagine having to put up with that sort of thing on the regular? And what if admin was not supportive? Or colleagues? The additional stress and the expectation that you MUST go above and beyond every single day, to be completely exemplary every day in every facet of your professional and personal life—this is not something that you’ve ever had to deal with and that I have had only a very small taste of because many of my interests did not align with the female stereotypes of my generation.

Frankly these days a lot of my non-white friends with accents do not leave home without their US passports. Because they are not white. I fear every single day for friends and family who are not white, who were not born in the US or who are not straight—or any combination of these.

I used to believe that racism was only an issue where I grew up and mostly in the past. But I saw a lot of stuff in this midwestern college town that lets me know it’s alive and well. Abd if I had any doubts, my kids certainly opened my eyes as they talked about things they’d in-white classmates faced in the regular. At school. Abd in the community.

 

[Toni]

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

No, it doesn't. It shows a disparate outcome, it provides no evidence whether that is due to discrimination.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

Let's look at what that actually is saying. These numbers are scores of applicants. Not of admissions. Red herring.

And it still says a lot. 505 is the 70% percentile. 514 is the 92% percentile.

What do you think acceptance rate means? Asking because I don't understand your meaning.

????

This is the averages for those who applied. That doesn't mean those who were accepted have the same average--what would be surprising is if the numbers were the same.

What this data does show is who thinks they have a chance of being accepted. There will be those who score too low and know it would just be throwing away time and money to apply. And it clearly shows Asians think the bar is higher than Native Americans think the bar is. Is there some reason to believe they're wrong?

How does it show that NA believe the bar is lower for them than Asians believe it is for them?

That’s what YOU believe.

Why is that?

No, data does not support your assumptions.

 

[Toni]

Why do you think that discrimination against black people, including students stopped at any point in the last 60-70 ( or 270) years?

Really?

Do you think the discrimination against black people is the same as it was 270 years ago? Or even 60 years ago?

Surely you know the difference between stopped and lessened. So why the straw man?

It will never stop completely. If that's your bar, you're out of luck. Some people dislike those that are different from them, and it's never going to disappear. A whole lot of men really dislike women, far more than the rate at which white people dislike black people. A whole lot of people dislike catholics, or pentactosals, or pick whatever religion you want. A whole lot of people dislike the French.

And it will never stop so long as we keep emphasizing it. Discrimination is one of those things that you shouldn't look too hard for--because when you look too hard you find it whether or not it's really there.

And it provides a convenient external cause of a problem, thus allowing people to avoid looking at the internal problems. (The single parent rate has been mentioned. Another big one is the age at which a woman has her first child.)

In other words: it’s not there because you don’t face it.

Denial is a vast, deep river indeed.