A sad casualty of DEI/Woke at Cambridge University

[Toni]

How does it imply that?

You need much higher grades and MCAT to get in you are white or Asian, and much lower if you are black of Hispanic.

No. That’s a specious claim based upon average GPAs and MCAT scores across racial demographics.

There is no evidence that any students who are admitted do not meet the threshold established.

You are operating under the assumption that medical schools should admit students based solely upon the the GPAs and MCAT scores, in order of highest scores, as though it were a race and the highest scores = fastest time.

When you're free to make the definition it's a useless yardstick. You can simply set it to define success.

Instead, look at the outcome. Minimum and average scores are higher for whites, even higher for Asians.

The outcome is that fewer than 1% of all medical students fail to complete their course of studies.

I believe that compares quite favorably with graduation rates at law schools and universities, including the Ivies..

So? That simply says the schools pass everyone. Says nothing about how good a doctor they are.

OMG. You are so married to your belief that inferior black and Hispanic applicants are given an unfair advantage over Asian and white applicants that you cannot accept that medical school is extremely rigorous and that admission directors are better at knowing who will do well in the program than you are.

I have no idea why you believe that you are such a better judge than professionals in the field.

If you want an example of racism still existing and being a problem in the US, try looking in the mirror.
You are beyond all hope.

 

[laughing dog]

In the case of medical school admissions, I presume medical school personnel at each institution have a better idea of the qualities and characteristics that shape good physicians within the mission of the school than internet discussants who think only standardized test scores and GPAs count.

Should we conclude that the Klan has a better idea of what makes a good American than we do?

I cannot say about you but I certainly wouldn't. Are you proposing the federal gov't allow the KKK to devise and administer the US citizenship process? Or do you think Trump is surreptitiously doing that? I

I don't think special expertise or experience is required to figure out the standards and to judge what makes a "good American". I do think some special expertise and experience is required to judge what is required to succeed in medical school and to become a good doctor. So I find your question rather surprisingly inane.

Why is everyone acting like I think the Klan is good or right??

Your question is bonkers, so it prompted clarifying questions.

My point is that your statement amounts to "trust me, I'm innocent".

That is a straw man. There is simply no way to reasonably interpret the bold-face above to mean "trust me, I'm innocent".

 

[laughing dog]

So? That simply says the schools pass everyone. Says nothing about how good a doctor they are.

To some extent that is true, because after graduating medical school, these students become interns and then residents in order to learn about "doctoring". Medical school gives them the tools, but it is the apprenticeships (if you will) that teaches them how to be doctors. Do you have any actual evidence that positively correlates physician quality with MCAT scores or college GPAs? I ask, because without such evidence, you really have no basis for your position.

 

[Toni]

So? That simply says the schools pass everyone. Says nothing about how good a doctor they are.

To some extent that is true, because after graduating medical school, these students become interns and then residents in order to learn about "doctoring". Medical school gives them the tools, but it is the apprenticeships (if you will) that teaches them how to be doctors. Do you have any actual evidence that positively correlates physician quality with MCAT scores or college GPAs? I ask, because without such evidence, you really have no basis for your position.

Medical school gives them the knowledge. Also most med students get hands on experience by their third or fourth years—under close supervision.

Residencies are an important part of becoming a doctor. It is there where you get the most hands on training that is essential to be able to practice medicine. You also must take and pass licensure examination before you begin your residency.

Residencies are anywhere between 3 abd7 years in length, depending on field of medicine you wish to serve in.

 

[Toni]

So? That simply says the schools pass everyone. Says nothing about how good a doctor they are.

To some extent that is true, because after graduating medical school, these students become interns and then residents in order to learn about "doctoring". Medical school gives them the tools, but it is the apprenticeships (if you will) that teaches them how to be doctors. Do you have any actual evidence that positively correlates physician quality with MCAT scores or college GPAs? I ask, because without such evidence, you really have no basis for your position.

I think Loren is just freaked out that black, Hispanic and NA individuals can become physicians just like whites and Asians

 

[Elixir]

Sometimes the best doctor is some dumbass quack whose stupid sincerity inspires a patient to make an effort.

 

[Toni]

Sometimes the best doctor is some dumbass quack whose stupid sincerity inspires a patient to make an effort.

My experience with dumbass quacks is that they inspire me to find a better doctor.

The dumbass quacks I’ve known are quite happy to let patients suffer needlessly rather than actually listen to them or, I don’t know: practice medicine. They just prefer to think of the patients as dumb and ignorant so the quack can maintain his belief in his superiority.

 

[Bomb#20]

In the case of medical school admissions, I presume medical school personnel at each institution have a better idea of the qualities and characteristics that shape good physicians within the mission of the school than internet discussants who think only standardized test scores and GPAs count.

Should we conclude that the Klan has a better idea of what makes a good American than we do?

Ask them. I bet they’ll agree.
Opinions differ. Get over it.
I do suspect though, that your inference of what LD is expressing, is vastly divergent from the intent. Matching students to curricula is hardly inherently tyrannical.

Do tell.

Flexner Report - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pretty much everything about the way American medical schools function was designed by Abraham Flexner early in the 20th century, with a view to making medicine scientific, bringing American doctors up to European standards, and eliminating the quackery and incompetence so prevalent in the 19th century. In these respects he was quite successful and all of us who've survived life-threatening illnesses because of medical intervention owe him a debt of gratitude for his invaluable services to the nation.

But there's another side to what he did: he matched students to curricula.

"A well-taught negro sanitarian will be immensely useful; an essentially untrained negro wearing an M.D. degree is dangerous."

"The practice of the Negro doctor will be limited to his own race, which in its turn will be cared for better by good Negro physicians than by poor white ones. But the physical well-being of the Negro is not only of moment to the Negro himself. Ten million of them live in close contact with sixty million whites. ... The Negro must be educated not only for his sake, but for ours."

"Woman has so apparent a function in certain medical specialties"​

His report led to "the closing of all but two of the historically black medical schools" as well as "the near elimination of women in the physician workforce between 1910 and 1970."

 

[DrZoidberg]

Speaking of which, here's a lovely old lady having a go at academic gibberish. Enjoy

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reality skews left. Wikipedia skews left of reality. Lots of cherry-picking.

Who is responsible for right wing illiteracy?
Wikipedia is open to critique. Give it a rip.

No, it's not open to critique on sensitive issues.

Long ago I didn't realize the problem, saw a missing link on a sensitive issue, added it (zero words changed, just a link added behind some words.) No, they didn't want it to be easy to look, my change got reverted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why can't they check all his work? That's what plagiarism checking tools do--run any test document against a very wide variety of published works. It's viable to check every student's submissions, it certainly is viable to check any prospective hire's work.

Good plagiarism checkers are not free. Especially ones that would be checking tens of thousands of words in a top candidate’s publication record.

As I have noted, it is not unreasonable to expect/assume that the Phd granting institution to check dissertations for plagiarism or the journal staff to check articles for plagiarism.

They're not free, but they're cheap enough professors can routinely check student's work. They certainly can therefore check even more important stuff.

So what's the conspiracy? Be precise. Are you saying that Cambridge University has one of these expensive programs, that they ran it against all of Jason Arday's publications and articles over the past 10 years before hiring him, and then hid the result and hired him anyway? Who were the people involved in the conspiracy and how have they kept it a secret even up to now? If you are not saying this, then how is it that you think this is relevant?

Conspiracy is too strong a word. I don't think this was deliberate, I think this was not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And why can't they check all his work? That's what plagiarism checking tools do--run any test document against a very wide variety of published works. It's viable to check every student's submissions, it certainly is viable to check any prospective hire's work.

Good plagiarism checkers are not free. Especially ones that would be checking tens of thousands of words in a top candidate’s publication record.

As I have noted, it is not unreasonable to expect/assume that the Phd granting institution to check dissertations for plagiarism or the journal staff to check articles for plagiarism.

They're not free, but they're cheap enough professors can routinely check student's work. They certainly can therefore check even more important stuff.

So what's the conspiracy? Be precise. Are you saying that Cambridge University has one of these expensive programs, that they ran it against all of Jason Arday's publications and articles over the past 10 years before hiring him, and then hid the result and hired him anyway? Who were the people involved in the conspiracy and how have they kept it a secret even up to now? If you are not saying this, then how is it that you think this is relevant?

Conspiracy is too strong a word. I don't think this was deliberate, I think this was not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

That isn't precise enough. Are you saying they had the capacity to run a super plagiarism checker upon his candidacy for hire and were just like, "Nah, he's Black. Let's not run it."

 

[Politesse]

When you accused me of threatening to sue you, you were making a false damaging groundless accusation against me with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. What a surprise.

Seriously? You were just casually happening to mention, no special reason, that someone, not you, could hypothetically, but not really, sue me for libel? How DARE I interpret that as a threat? Is that seriously how you insist the situation should be interpreted?

And you wonder why I get pissed off at you people! As I said, I am allergic to childish bullshit.

 

[Politesse]

You also appear to have accused him of being a Republican; that too is a false factual claim about him.

AH! So you get to "interpret" what I "appear to have meant". Inaccurately, I note. But if I outright state what you obviously meant, I'm a monster. The phantasm of the wicked left. A terrorist, really.

 

[Toni]

Reality skews left. Wikipedia skews left of reality. Lots of cherry-picking.

Who is responsible for right wing illiteracy?
Wikipedia is open to critique. Give it a rip.

No, it's not open to critique on sensitive issues.

Long ago I didn't realize the problem, saw a missing link on a sensitive issue, added it (zero words changed, just a link added behind some words.) No, they didn't want it to be easy to look, my change got reverted.

Or they simply disagreed.

Obviously I have no idea of what subject/entry you are referring to and it doesn’t really matter. I do know that years ago, it was extremely easy to make entries —one of my duds dud when they were in high school. Since then, I believe that Wiki has become much more stringent about what it accepts as additions and has purged a bunch of publicly sources stuff, including, I believe, my kid’s entry. So what happened with yours may have been part of that—just a more wholesale purging and not a reflection on yours per se.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just because there are no signs on water fountains or special places in movie theaters or busses doesn’t mean there is no longer discrimination.

You don’t see it just as I’m not faced with it nearly so much —-because we are white. It doesn’t affect us directly.

Frankly I’ve been ashamed of myself for believing that racism wasn’t much of an issue in academia but talking with a good friend who is Asian and a US citizen and a PhD from an excellent American university, I was stunned and deeply disturbed and ashamed as she told me stories of students who would go to administration and claim her English wasn’t good. FFS, she’s been speaking English her entire life! Yes, there’s a slight accent but it is slight and there is zero issue understanding anything says.

If there were a bunch of students having a problem then why not consider that there might be a problem? Accents and word choice are far more of an issue when you're trying to learn something than when you're simply talking to somebody.

Her command of English is far better than that of her students. But this, and the hostility in the past of some of the students is something she had to face every single day. Another friend from Australia who holds a PhDand teaches at the local university has had students ask him in class if he’s sure he belongs here. Are you kidding me? Oh, he’s not of purely European extraction so he is not blonde haired and blue eyed. He is keenly intelligent and very good in his field of study—and does sound Australian. I do tend to blame the animus against him on the rise of racism during Trump 1.0 and especially 2.0. But my other friend has dealt with racism for decades.

The Felon has certainly brought about a resurgence of racism. Things very well might get bad again. That doesn't mean they have been bad.

Frankly these days a lot of my non-white friends with accents do not leave home without their US passports. Because they are not white. I fear every single day for friends and family who are not white, who were not born in the US or who are not straight—or any combination of these.

Quite understandable with the Gestapo roaming the streets. But note that most people don't support the Gestapo.

I used to believe that racism was only an issue where I grew up and mostly in the past. But I saw a lot of stuff in this midwestern college town that lets me know it’s alive and well. Abd if I had any doubts, my kids certainly opened my eyes as they talked about things they’d in-white classmates faced in the regular. At school. Abd in the community.

If you look hard enough you'll find it whether it's there or not.

 

[Politesse]

If you look hard enough you'll find it whether it's there or not.

The alt-right mentality, summarized.

 

[Toni]

Just because there are no signs on water fountains or special places in movie theaters or busses doesn’t mean there is no longer discrimination.

You don’t see it just as I’m not faced with it nearly so much —-because we are white. It doesn’t affect us directly.

Frankly I’ve been ashamed of myself for believing that racism wasn’t much of an issue in academia but talking with a good friend who is Asian and a US citizen and a PhD from an excellent American university, I was stunned and deeply disturbed and ashamed as she told me stories of students who would go to administration and claim her English wasn’t good. FFS, she’s been speaking English her entire life! Yes, there’s a slight accent but it is slight and there is zero issue understanding anything says.

If there were a bunch of students having a problem then why not consider that there might be a problem? Accents and word choice are far more of an issue when you're trying to learn something than when you're simply talking to somebody.

Her command of English is far better than that of her students. But this, and the hostility in the past of some of the students is something she had to face every single day. Another friend from Australia who holds a PhDand teaches at the local university has had students ask him in class if he’s sure he belongs here. Are you kidding me? Oh, he’s not of purely European extraction so he is not blonde haired and blue eyed. He is keenly intelligent and very good in his field of study—and does sound Australian. I do tend to blame the animus against him on the rise of racism during Trump 1.0 and especially 2.0. But my other friend has dealt with racism for decades.

The Felon has certainly brought about a resurgence of racism. Things very well might get bad again. That doesn't mean they have been bad.

Frankly these days a lot of my non-white friends with accents do not leave home without their US passports. Because they are not white. I fear every single day for friends and family who are not white, who were not born in the US or who are not straight—or any combination of these.

Quite understandable with the Gestapo roaming the streets. But note that most people don't support the Gestapo.

I used to believe that racism was only an issue where I grew up and mostly in the past. But I saw a lot of stuff in this midwestern college town that lets me know it’s alive and well. Abd if I had any doubts, my kids certainly opened my eyes as they talked about things they’d in-white classmates faced in the regular. At school. Abd in the community.

If you look hard enough you'll find it whether it's there or not.

It’s never been ‘a bunch of students.’ It’s been one or two students a year. Consistently.

The reason I know there is no problem with understanding the accents of the individuals I mentioned is because o know the individuals. I know that they have spoken English their entire lives. Well. Have received excellent t educations at well known universities, one in the US and the other in Australia. Where English is the native language. Graduate degrees and theses written and defended in English. Decades teaching. In English.

The accent isn’t the issue. The skin color is the issue. For one or two students a year.

Believe it or not, some people learn bigotry and racism from their parents. Where did you learn yours?

Also some people, when confronted with something that is a little different t than what they are used to simply shut down and everything is ‘too hard’ and it must be the problem with the new thing.

Which is exactly why going away to college is important. To learn about—and from people who are not exactly like the people who lived in your small town or your neighborhood. You know: to learn.

An awful lot of people still tolerate the Gestapo. Just like under the Third Reich. Cowardice endangers us all.

Including you.

If you look hard enough you'll find it whether it's there or not.

As you demonstrate every time you ‘find’ discrimination against Asians in medical school admissions.

 

[ZiprHead]

If you look hard enough you'll find it whether it's there or not.

The alt-right mentality, summarized.

It's happening right now in our military. Hegseth is firing and rejecting women and black people like crazy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In the case of medical school admissions, I presume medical school personnel at each institution have a better idea of the qualities and characteristics that shape good physicians within the mission of the school than internet discussants who think only standardized test scores and GPAs count.

Should we conclude that the Klan has a better idea of what makes a good American than we do?

WTF???

The allegation is they are discriminating in admissions. To take their word for it that they are being honest doesn't make sense.

The Klan says blacks are inferior. Should we trust them about that? If not, why should we trust the schools with the same question?

The Klan board certified?

You took a statement that ld said grossly out of context. He suggested that admission boards are more familiar with the broader process of inspecting / reviewing applicants to their med school.

Your response was to say we can't trust the judgment of The Klan, therefore... ???