England headed for A Caliphate

[pood]

I need to turn off auto correct, which usually makes things worse rather than better.

 

[Elixir]

I need to turn off auto correct, which usually makes things worse rather than better.

Absolutely - a few minutes ago it had England headed for California.

 

[bilby]

It's a perfectly rational thing to say when I can't remember off the top of my head which countries in the European theatre have nukes. Also, I thought Turkey was nuclear capable too?

Do they not have Google where you live?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Atheists, liberals, socialists and scientists are still behaving like Christians even though they have largely moved on regarding belief in God.

The evangelising urge is the big one. The rest of the world just cares about gaining power.

And that those at the bottom of the status hierarchy are worthy of dignity. Modern liberal democracy wouldn't be possible without a Christian way of thinking.

Ever have one of those bosses who takes credit for his underlings' accomplishments but their screwups are never his fault? Christian theology is based on that principle in spades; you can earn your way into Hell with your sins but you can't earn your way into Heaven with your works so you need Jesus' grace to redeem you. Well, that's all myth -- the God character is just an extrapolation of ancient despots' typical behavior -- but for seventeen hundred years Christianity was western civilization's real life boss, and the real boss well learned the lesson of its fictional boss. Christianity takes credit and denies blame for whatever the people it ruled were doing for whatever reason. The charity is Christianity but the Inquisition isn't its fault. And Christianity isn't even original. People have been pointing out that the Christ story was plagiarized since forever, most famously The Golden Bough's list of dying-and-rising gods in ancient myths. Joseph Campbell pointed out several other elements of the story that were copied as well.

All this should be familiar to atheists. So given that context, why the heck would we take it seriously when Christianity tries to take credit for caring about more than power and for those at the bottom of the status hierarchy being worthy of dignity? Shouldn't we suspect those were plagiarized too? Funny story about that...

Alcidamas: The First Ancient Greek Voice Declaring ‘Nature Made No One a Slave’ - GreekReporter.com

Alcidamas condemned slavery in Ancient Greek society, arguing it violates human nature and exposes the artificiality of social hierarchies.

greekreporter.com

Your comment is missing its mark. You seem to be engaging in polemics. I'm not.

If I believe the things you seem to think I do, I would be a Christian. I'm not. I'm an atheist. So's Tom Holland

Another way to say the same thing. Christianity is a package of beliefs, values, rituals, iconography.

When Europe secularised we told ourselves that God is dead and now we were godless and humanistic. We were free. The Jacobins of the French revolution banned God and converted churches to "temples of reason". Robbespierre kept going on about virtue and that all people should be forced to be free, on pain of death.

Sounds like a famaliar behaviour?

Nietzshe took a peak at how pagan Europe operated and how its values worked and compared them to modern values and realised how deep Christian thinking went. He called it "slave morality". In "Thus spake Zarathustra" he speculated on how a non Christian mindset might function in Europe. The Overman.

Pagans had slaves. Might makes right. The idea that this would be problematic were fringe philosophical musings.

Or put even simpler. If everyone is Christian it has cultural side effects that persist even if people stop being Christian. It completely permeates everything in the west.

 

[Bomb#20]

So the second best armed, of the two nuclear powers in the European theatre.

You realize I said one of the best armed nuclear powers, right? I mean, you did actually read for comprehension before responding, didn’t you?

You realise that saying one of the best armed nuclear powers is absurd, when the total number of nuclear powers is two, right? I mean, you did actually read for comprehension before responding, didn’t you?

It's a perfectly rational thing to say when I can't remember off the top of my head which countries in the European theatre have nukes. Also, I thought Turkey was nuclear capable too? Maybe they're not part of that area.

Well, yes and no. Yes, there are nuclear weapons in Turkey, but they're American nukes kept under USAF control and Turkey doesn't have the arming codes. So Turkey is theoretically nuclear capable in the sense that using them is procedurally supposed to be a joint decision. It's also theoretically nuclear capable in the sense that its army could theoretically seize them from the American airmen at Incirlik and hope its technicians can eventually figure out how to bypass the locks without destroying the bombs. If you want to count that possibility as making a country a nuclear power, then Britain is the fourth best armed of the ten nuclear powers in the European theater, behind France, Russia and the U.S., but ahead of Italy, Turkey, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, and Belarus.

(As for whether they're part of that area, well, yes and no. Does "they" refer to the weapons or to the Turks? Incirlik is in the Asian part of Turkey, not in the European part; but of course if Turkey seized them it could easily move them across the Bosporus.)

 

[Bomb#20]

The RNLI is under no obligation to help anyone - it is a private volunteer organization of humanitarians. No one is asking you to donate effort, time or resources.

You are correct, twice over. No one is asking Loren to donate effort, time or resources, since he's an American and the cost is borne by the British. And no one is asking the British to donate effort, time or resources either -- the effort, time and resources it takes them to earn the 40K to 50K pounds a year British taxpayers pay for their rulers to support an irregular migrant are not asked from them, but commanded.

I didn’t realize that 1) Britain’s rulers are unelected and 2)rescuing someone at sea is equivalent to supporting them on land. Thanks for education!

You're welcome, but it sounds like more of it is needed. In the first place, the Holy Roman Empire's rulers were elected; that doesn't make them chosen by the people. Labour won its parliamentary majority with 34% of the vote. In the second place, you said "No one is asking", not "You don't get a vote". Three thousand tyrants one mile away don't ask permission before drafting their neighbors' effort, time and resources any more than one tyrant three thousand miles away does. And in the third place, "equivalent to" does not exhaust the phenomenon of causation. Sure, British taxpayers are made to support lots of people who weren't rescued at sea too; but the nonequivalence doesn't magically protect taxpayers from their rulers making them support the people who were.

I didn’t realize the a parliamentary majority was unresponsive to the voters or that you can divine what the citizens want. Thanks for the rducation.

Like any other Western government, the UK's parliamentary majority is responsive to the voters on some matters and unresponsive on others. As for divining, I didn't offer an opinion on what the citizens want -- perhaps they like being ordered to pay for the upkeep of irregular migrants. If so, that still doesn't mean they were asked and not commanded.

Public opinion towards immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory

This briefing provides an overview of attitudes toward immigration in Britain.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

Huh. It turns out 79% think there's been too much unauthorized migration. Who'da thunk?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The RNLI is under no obligation to help anyone - it is a private volunteer organization of humanitarians. No one is asking you to donate effort, time or resources.

You are correct, twice over. No one is asking Loren to donate effort, time or resources, since he's an American and the cost is borne by the British. And no one is asking the British to donate effort, time or resources either -- the effort, time and resources it takes them to earn the 40K to 50K pounds a year British taxpayers pay for their rulers to support an irregular migrant are not asked from them, but commanded.

I didn’t realize that 1) Britain’s rulers are unelected and 2)rescuing someone at sea is equivalent to supporting them on land. Thanks for education!

You're welcome, but it sounds like more of it is needed. In the first place, the Holy Roman Empire's rulers were elected; that doesn't make them chosen by the people. Labour won its parliamentary majority with 34% of the vote. In the second place, you said "No one is asking", not "You don't get a vote". Three thousand tyrants one mile away don't ask permission before drafting their neighbors' effort, time and resources any more than one tyrant three thousand miles away does. And in the third place, "equivalent to" does not exhaust the phenomenon of causation. Sure, British taxpayers are made to support lots of people who weren't rescued at sea too; but the nonequivalence doesn't magically protect taxpayers from their rulers making them support the people who were.

I didn’t realize the a parliamentary majority was unresponsive to the voters or that you can divine what the citizens want. Thanks for the rducation.

Like any other Western government, the UK's parliamentary majority is responsive to the voters on some matters and unresponsive on others. As for divining, I didn't offer an opinion on what the citizens want -- perhaps they like being ordered to pay for the upkeep of irregular migrants. If so, that still doesn't mean they were asked and not commanded.

Public opinion towards immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory

This briefing provides an overview of attitudes toward immigration in Britain.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

Huh. It turns out 79% think there's been too much unauthorized migration. Who'da thunk?

Britains biggest political crisis seems to be the near total breakdown of trust in politicians. It seems to be a clown show now

 

[bilby]

Britains biggest political crisis seems to be the near total breakdown of trust in politicians. It seems to be a clown show now

Well, that's to be expected when a Prime Minister decides to definitively silence the back-bench of his party, and his method for so doing accidentally results in not only utterly failing to do so, but also in the economic, political, and social devastation of the entire nation.

Oops.

 

[Elixir]

79% think there's been too much unauthorized migration. Who'da thunk?

{{{raises hand}}}
Everybody needs to just sit down right where they are, and STFU.
Except billionaires. Billionaires can flit about, hither and yon, and nary an eyebrow is raised. As it should be. Just ask one.

 

[Bomb#20]

79% think there's been too much unauthorized migration. Who'da thunk?

{{{raises hand}}}
Everybody needs to just sit down right where they are, and STFU.

86% think private property shouldn't be abolished. {{{Elixir-prime raises hand}}} Everybody needs to just sit down on what they have right now, and STFU.

The mistake Elixir-prime is making is that private property doesn't mean stuff doesn't change hands; it means stuff changes hands when it's mutually voluntary. Likewise, border control doesn't mean people don't change countries; it means they change countries when it's mutually voluntary. Mutually voluntary transfers are typically mutually beneficial; transfers that are voluntary on one side and involuntary on the other side tend to be exploitative.

Except billionaires. Billionaires can flit about, hither and yon, and nary an eyebrow is raised. As it should be. Just ask one.

Explain that to Pavel Durov.

 

[TSwizzle]

An overweight Somali muslim woman beats out an antisemite breast whisperer for Camden MP



Truly, England is lost.

 

[laughing dog]

An overweight Somali muslim woman beats out an antisemite breast whisperer for Camden MP



Truly, England is lost.

What does being overweight or Somali or a woman make it bad?

 

[TSwizzle]

Here is the deputy leader of the Green Party. He will likely challenge the antisemite breast whisperer for the leadership



Mothin Ali states he is as English as Yorkshire tea or some such nonsense.

Of course he is

 

[Elixir]

86% think private property shouldn't be abolished. {{{Elixir-prime raises hand}}} Everybody needs to just sit down on what they have right now, and STFU.

A really old friend proposed to me that every few years, everyone randomly has to “switch wallets” - all worldly possessions.
Sounds absurd on the face of it, but thinking through the motivational sets it would encourage, it’s not a bad idea.
That guy is not a billionaire, but he has cars worth millions…

 

[bilby]

Mothin Ali states he is as English as Yorkshire tea or some such nonsense.

Of course he is

Yorkshire Tea is blended from leaves grown in Sri Lanka, India, Kenya, and Rwanda.

Tea doesn't grow in Yorkshire, nor anywhere else in England prior to the establishment of a plantation in Cornwall in 1999 (A venture made possible by global warming).

None of the Cornish tea is used in Yorkshire Tea, which is just a branding/marketing exercise.

So...

 

[Bomb#20]

A really old friend proposed to me that every few years, everyone randomly has to “switch wallets” - all worldly possessions.
Sounds absurd on the face of it, but thinking through the motivational sets it would encourage, it’s not a bad idea.
That guy is not a billionaire, but he has cars worth millions…

You mean motivating everyone who can to emigrate, and motivating everyone who can't emigrate to consume everything he produces before it's confiscated?

 

[Elixir]

A really old friend proposed to me that every few years, everyone randomly has to “switch wallets” - all worldly possessions.
Sounds absurd on the face of it, but thinking through the motivational sets it would encourage, it’s not a bad idea.
That guy is not a billionaire, but he has cars worth millions…

You mean motivating everyone who can to emigrate, and motivating everyone who can't emigrate to consume everything he produces before it's confiscated?

You forget - you might get Me-Lon’s trillions! Don’t wanna take your ticket out of the hat, do you?
No.
But that’s the least of it. Once you have the trillions, then what? Eat nonstop until you burst? No, the idea is that it forces the individual to work on their own inherent value, rather than to fritter away a lifetime in an attempt to pile up a fortress of toys to defend against any effort to make them have to do anything they don’t wanna do.
Redefining wealth as an internal thing, in a way.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why did you write that? Are you trying to persuade people who disagree with you, or are you just grandstanding to the self-congratulation-as-social-policy crowd? Yes, yes, everyone who is concerned about the consequences of the open-border policy is just a stupid conspiracy theorist so you're perfectly right to look down on them and dismiss them and pat yourselves on the back about what superior life forms people who think like you are.

If and when England becomes a caliphate as the entirely foreseeable consequence of current trends being allowed to continue unobstructed, the fact that none of the successive governments that each for short-sighted political reasons of their own chose not to obstruct those trends ever meant for that outcome to happen will no doubt be a great consolation to the dhimmis.

First, there isn't an "open border policy" in the way that is stated, because most asylum seekers are eventually rejected during processing and vetting. Second, the conspiracy theory or alarmism--whatever you would like to call it--is an actual thing here. It isn't an ad hominem to recognize the huge overlap of alarmist, possibly xenophobic people who were pro-Brexit and now don't realize that they've magnified an immigration return problem. However, all that said, when we discuss problems and solutions, we first need to identify precisely what problem is being solved, and here we have a fictitious problem as stated: the UK rapidly becoming a Caliphate. Basic arithmetic shows this to be false, and something that would take centuries at best. The thread is an exercise in repeating one-sided narratives and memes comprised of anecdotes, cherry-picked data, and a fictitious alarmist claim--so much so that the thread is tainted beyond repair. It has simply become Primal Scream Therapy, with others (ineffectively) saying "calm down."

 

[pood]

Mothin Ali states he is as English as Yorkshire tea or some such nonsense.

Of course he is

Yorkshire Tea is blended from leaves grown in Sri Lanka, India, Kenya, and Rwanda.

Tea doesn't grow in Yorkshire, nor anywhere else in England prior to the establishment of a plantation in Cornwall in 1999 (A venture made possible by global warming).

None of the Cornish tea is used in Yorkshire Tea, which is just a branding/marketing exercise.

So...

You’ll have to excuse Swizzle; he doesn’t know anything.

 

[Bomb#20]

A really old friend proposed to me that every few years, everyone randomly has to “switch wallets” - all worldly possessions.
Sounds absurd on the face of it, but thinking through the motivational sets it would encourage, it’s not a bad idea.
That guy is not a billionaire, but he has cars worth millions…

You mean motivating everyone who can to emigrate, and motivating everyone who can't emigrate to consume everything he produces before it's confiscated?

You forget - you might get Me-Lon’s trillions! Don’t wanna take your ticket out of the hat, do you?
No.

And there in a nutshell is the inescapable flaw in social contract philosophy, from Hobbes through Locke and Rousseau to Rawls and Elixir -- all of you decide what the people would agree to by consulting your inner visions instead of asking other people what they'd agree to. Philosopher King wannabes, straight out of Plato, to a man. "No", you say. Yes, I bloody well would take my ticket out of that hat. That hat is a death trap.

But that’s the least of it. Once you have the trillions, then what? Eat nonstop until you burst?

Okay, let's say like an idiot I stay, and against all odds I get lucky. Once I have the trillions, then what? That's easy.

"If you wanna die in bed
Follow my example
When you see a cloud ahead
It's time to show your class
Hit the door before
They make a target of your ass

If you wanna die in bed
In times of revolution
When the flag they fly is red
Let pride fill up your chest
Meanwhile pack a sack
And take the first boat heading west"​

No, the idea is that it forces the individual to work on their own inherent value, rather than to fritter away a lifetime in an attempt to pile up a fortress of toys to defend against any effort to make them have to do anything they don’t wanna do.
Redefining wealth as an internal thing, in a way.

Look, I get it -- like pretty much every other bit of left-wing insanity, the intent is to remake society to line up with innate human moral intuition. Innate human moral intuition, like every other instinct, is ancestral memory -- it's the cumulative evolutionary lessons each species learned about itself by brutal experience. It's a "system of survival" in Jane Jacobs's expression. The trouble is, what that instinct is a memory of is the millions of years our ancestors spent hunting and gathering, not the ten thousand years our ancestors spent farming, because ten thousand years is too few to evolve new instincts. Thinking like a leftist is what it takes to survive by foraging. A hunter-gatherer needs to define wealth as an internal thing and work on his own inherent value, because any fortress of toys to pile up and defend is lethally wasted effort as soon the local game gives out and the band has to hike a hundred miles to fresh hunting grounds, keeping only as many toys as each member can carry on his own back.

When foragers try to live by farmer rules, foragers starve. When farmers try to live by forager rules, farmers starve. We're farmers. I'm taking my ticket out of the hat, hitting the door and taking the first boat heading west, because I don’t wanna starve.