MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[Emily Lake]

From here. We spend a little more than countries like France, Germany and even Canada.

France is literally in flames because years of austerity budgeting have gutted their schools...

Sure... that's why they're in flames... yup. It's 100% only current students that are looting and burning and destroying the place, nobody at all has hopped on and taken advantage of the initial protest to cause much bigger problems.

 

[Emily Lake]

First of all: physician salaries are being conflated by some with fees for service.

Only by you. Nobody else has conflated them. You have "corrected" me a few times for something I never said, and which I have clarified multiple times. So as far as I can see, you're the only person conflating service fees with salaries.

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

 

[Emily Lake]

Secondly: the persons who should be involved with determining a patient’s treatment t options are: the physician, operating under the guidance of whatever policies and best practices established by the directors of the medical facility, state medical boards, AMA, etc. and the patient.

Not any insurance company or legislature.

If I go to the doctor and am diagnosed with a disease or condition requiring medical intervention, it should be my decision from options and with advice from my doctor ( or PA or NP)—not the insurance company. The insurance company cares only about profits for shareholders. They are not physicians and they have no experience with me as a patient. They are not competent to make medical decisions for anyone. What they make are financial decisions that determine medical treatment for people they don’t know and have no medical training to make.

This isn't actually true.

Your insurance coverage is a contract. It's a contract that allows you to offload your personal liability for potential but uncertain high cost treatments. Part of that contract includes a definition of what is and is not covered, as well as limitations on how those services are accessed and at what cost.

This no different from any other service contract out there. Hell, for my home warranty, I don't even get to pick which repair company shows up to fix my AC when it goes out - the warranty company assigns someone and I have no say in it. I don't even get a list of approved companies to choose from.

Most denied services are denied because the person getting the service wasn't eligible (you'd be surprised how many claims come in for services performed after the individual's coverage ends), or because the service is a non-covered service. The next level up tend to be technical denials that the patient never knows about - some information was missing on the claim and it gets sent back to the provider to complete or re-do. Beyond that, it hits clinical criteria for what is safe and effective, whether the requested provider is in-network and properly licensed, etc.

Any clinical decision that denies a requested service must go through a doctor. Automated systems can issue approvals when all the right things are in place. If there's some question, a nurse or similar will evaluate, and if they approve it's good to go. But if it's going to be denied with a clinical reason it must be a doctor that does the denying.

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

WTF ?No, I’m not limiting to the last sentence.

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

I realize you think that is an axiom, but is doesn’t address what I wrote at all.

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Hence tying a degree to market necessity is a rather a narrow focus.

 

[Politesse]

From here. We spend a little more than countries like France, Germany and even Canada.

France is literally in flames because years of austerity budgeting have gutted their schools...

Sure... that's why they're in flames... yup. It's 100% only current students that are looting and burning and destroying the place, nobody at all has hopped on and taken advantage of the initial protest to cause much bigger problems.

I didn't say they weren't. Merely commenting on the absurdity of claiming that education is being adequately supported in either nation at present.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately, in university, art classes tended to be limited to art majors and I was a biology major so.......

You did not have free electives at your university?

Everyone wants to take art as an elective. My school limited art classes to those with at least a declared minor.

I was a math major with an art minor.

Well not everyone wants to take art as an elective. I would have loved to do that but it was not possible for me to do. At the first university I attended, I simply did not have availability in my schedule—lab stage up 4 block hrs of time which becomes very restrictive. At the school where I graduated, they only allowed declared art majors to take art classes. I thought it was cutting their nose off to spite their face but it was a very small department.

Lucky you to get to do art! I can only do what I picked up on my own, my high school art teacher being very close to useless. He did get me into Saturday art classes at an art school in a program fur high schoolers but I had to drop it after my parents learned that there were live models mostly nude. I’m still not sure which my father found more shocking: the model only wearing a jock strap or me knowing what one was. Being the times that it was I realized that was what a jock strap was but I had never actually seen one. I was embarrassed for about 30 seconds but then just became engrossed in the work.

 

[Toni]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

I realize you think that is an axiom, but is doesn’t address what I wrote at all.

My point is that in any discipline, one acquires skill and perspective that is transferable into other areas. Which makes one more versatile.

Hence tying a degree to market necessity is a rather a narrow focus.

Narrow and inappropriate…

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A good student can be in a poor situation and can benefit from being put in a better one. But rarely were they not a good student in the poor situation.

But that’s not what you said. You said that it’s useless to take a student from a bad school and place them in a good school.

Seems to me that if a school is actually any good, it can help all students, including those who came from ‘poor’ schools. After all, children don’t choose their parents, much less their neighborhood or circumstances. Nor did their parents before them.

You might think so but that's not what we see.

Nothing is gained from putting most students in better schools. The schools are a reflection, not the primary cause.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The one thing that's a little baffling is they chose to erase the Hispanic guy, rather than the White guy in the middle. Did Hispanic males drop below even White males on the progressive stack? Or maybe they thought the Hispanic guy was also White?!

Altering the Asian girl's face had to sting a little for her. I guess AI (or the photo editor) wasn't too fond of her chubby cheeks. I kinda liked her better the original way.

How is what you describe "DEI" in any way?

That's about making things look different than they are. You've heard of the token black guy? Looks like we have a token white guy here.

How is misrepresenting the racial composition of their school expanding diversity, equity, or inclusion? In no definition of equity is "putting students in digital blackface to appease Marketing" a recommended practice. Indeed, Stanford's own ethnic studies faculty are furious about this incident. While white nationalist assholes are clearly delighted and amused. What should that tell you?

What it tells me is that reality is quite far from what they claim.

 

[Toni]

A good student can be in a poor situation and can benefit from being put in a better one. But rarely were they not a good student in the poor situation.

But that’s not what you said. You said that it’s useless to take a student from a bad school and place them in a good school.

Seems to me that if a school is actually any good, it can help all students, including those who came from ‘poor’ schools. After all, children don’t choose their parents, much less their neighborhood or circumstances. Nor did their parents before them.

You might think so but that's not what we see.

Nothing is gained from putting most students in better schools. The schools are a reflection, not the primary cause.

Why don't you have a PhD? Didn't your parents see the potential in you?

 

[Toni]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

Once one realizes that expertise in a specific area or topic does not doom anyone to practice in that area/topic, one realizes how shaky is the ground on which your argument rests.

If degree in that field isn't necessary, then the public shouldn't be expected to pay for a degree in that field.

Emily! Anytime I stop by this forum and see a big number of responses, I know you’ve been by.

But once again:

O reason not the need! Our basest beggars
Are in the poorest things superfluous
Allow not nature more than nature’s basest needs
Man’s life is cheap as beasts.

You should have taken some lit classes, Emily.

​

​

 

[Toni]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

Nope. Some literature classes would go a long way to helping people understand and feel something called empathy for other people.

I prescribe some Steinbeck abd some Shakespeare and some Tony Morrison and Octavia Butler plus at least one volume each of Frost, Cummings, and Bishop.

 

[Toni]

First of all: physician salaries are being conflated by some with fees for service.

Only by you. Nobody else has conflated them. You have "corrected" me a few times for something I never said, and which I have clarified multiple times. So as far as I can see, you're the only person conflating service fees with salaries.

I dunno. AFAIK, you are harping on enormous fees charged by physicians without taking into account exactly what those fees pay for, aside from physician’s salary.

I’m sorry if I missed the part where you acknowledged that $100 fir a 15 minute office visit is not $100 into the physician’s bank account.

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh, I’m very aware of why some (white) people prefer all white or mostly white instructors and classmates. I have friends who are not white and who teach at public universities. I know some of the shit they have to put up with. Mostly from their students.

So in other words: white people bad, mkay.

That straw man response is uncalled for. Whether you admit it or not, bigotry exists, and its victims have to deal with it. And before you get in huff about it, notice that the previous sentence neither mentions race nor targets race.

Why are you artificially limiting this to solely the last sentence? You're limiting it to the red sentence, and trying to pretend the blue sentence was never said?

WTF ?No, I’m not limiting to the last sentence.

Fill in the blanks for me...

 

[Toni]

Why do you believe that some collective ‘we’ knows the value of and market for certain Ph.D’s? I don’t mean to be rude here but I’m not that smart and neither are you.

This doesn't require you to be super smart. It just requires some really basic common sense.

• Do we need competent primary school teachers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent primary school teachers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need farmers and ranchers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing competent farmers and ranchers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need plumbers? Yes. Are we likely to continue needing plumbers in the future? Also yes.
• Do we need health actuaries? Sort of but not really a lot of them. Are we likely to continue needing health actuaries in the future? Odds are grim.
• Do we need russian literature experts? I mean, maybe two or three I suppose. Are we likely to continue needing russian literature experts in the future? We can probably get by without them and it's not going to cause any widespread suffering.

I get that you value education - so do I. But this isn't rocket surgery, Toni. Not all education has the same potential, the same social value, and the same need.

It’s weird to me. I see you and Emily as being very anti-government telling people what they can and cannot do to the extent possible but here you both are, trying to argue that the government t has any business at all telling people what they should or cannot study. You’re basically arguing for government control in a way that sounds a lot like communism.

This is a false representation of my argument. And I'm pretty sure you are aware that it's a false representation.

But your argument sure loses a lot of oomph when you try to say "I see you being very anti-government control, but here you are arguing that the government should be prudent in how it spends tax dollars and should only fund higher ed in fields that meet a clear societal need".

It doesn’t seem false to me. Most students I have known are aware of the income potential goal for the degrees they are pursuing. The ones I think are deluded are the poor schmucks pursuing ‘business’ majors, at the behest of they’re parents who think the key to a good life is a suit and tie being tied behind a desk.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

tribal - whether it is perjorative depends on context
tribal thinking - perjorative

It seems like the pattern is when the term or phrase describes a concrete functional, often necessary, it is not perjorative. When it stems from an idea, perhaps a stereotype, about priorities or thinking, it is perjorative.

Doesn't make the problem go away. What word would you prefer? Ingroup/outgroup is much more clumsy.