Progressives betray voters and back a Zionist speaker

[bilby]

If you can't see the big difference between a war in which the US was a direct participant, firing missiles and dropping bombs from day one, and one in which she was a mere bystander who may perhaps be dragged in at some future point, then I don't know how anyone can help you.

They are both proxy wars.

No they fucking aren't. Iran was attacked directly by the US military. That's not a proxy war, it's a fucking WAR.

The only difference in the case of Ukraine the US is financing that war

Not to a significant degree. Most US military hardware going to Ukraine is being paid for by Europeans. The US isn't financing that war, it is profiting from it.

so that Ukraine can die against Russia

Ukraine doesn't appear to be dying right now.

but in the case of Iran, US is cuckolded by Israel as its proxy for bombing Iran for them.

Both the US and Israel are direct beligerents. Neither is a proxy for anyone.

More to the point, both wars involve US tax money being used to kill people.

That's not 'more to the point'; It's irrelevant to the point.

 

[Derec]

Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.

Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

While there can be anti-zionists who are not anti-semites, I am hard-pressed to come up with too many possible scenarios where this would apply. One would be the ultra-orthodox Jews who think that Israel should be reestablished as a Messianic kingdom and not as a product human effort, e.g. by secular Jews who bought up land in the Ottoman Empire, and then defended the nascent state from onslaught by Arab armies.

However, I am hard-pressed to think of another reason to be anti-zionist but not anti-semitic. Surely, if it's ok for there to be almost a dozen Arab states and even more Muslim states, it should be ok for there to be a single Jewish state to serve as the homeland for Jewish people.

 

[Derec]

I've always found it pretty easy.
"I'm against genocide" - Anti-Zionism
"I'm just asking questions" - Anti-Semitic

Neither of these makes any sense. Especially since the only genocide there is the attempted genocide by Hamas and their allies (Islamic Jihad, PFLP within Palestinian territories, and Houthis, Hezbollah and the Tehran Theocracy without) against Israel.

 

[Derec]

I suspect being against the concept of Greater Israel for starters.

Not just "greater Israel", whatever that means. Anti-zionists are against existence of Israel whatsoever.

 

[Derec]

You might need some context then. This thread was created by someone who loves listening to anti-Semitic white supremacists (Tucker Carlson etc).

While they are both antisemitic, Jimmy Dore (whose video RVonse actually posted) is on the far left, while Tucker is on the far right. Any similarity between the two is just a testament to the Horseshoe Theory.

It's a bad faith argument right from the get go (and not the first or even hundredth time RVonse has done this BTW). Toni pointed out (rightly IMO) that in this current climate the media almost always conflate anti-Zionism/criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic and went on to clarify there is a distinction.

There is a big difference between criticizing the government of Israel vs. anti-zionism. Anti-zionism has become a figleaf for anti-semites to pretend that they are not antisemitic. But I see very little difference in practice for vast majority of these "anti-zionists".

Tigers! is of the opinion Israel can do no wrong and that Gaza can't do anything right.

While Israel has made mistakes in recent history, one'd be hard pressed to find any instance where Hamas-run Gaza did anything right. The decision to launch a war of aggression against Israel is certainly not doing something right. Neither is shooting rockets at Israeli cities, etc.

 

[Derec]

No they fucking aren't. Iran was attacked directly by the US military. That's not a proxy war, it's a fucking WAR.

The Shiitist Entity has been attacking the US since 1979. We should have put an end to it as soon as they took over our embassy.

 

[bilby]

No they fucking aren't. Iran was attacked directly by the US military. That's not a proxy war, it's a fucking WAR.

The Shiitist Entity has been attacking the US since 1979. We should have put an end to it as soon as they took over our embassy.

I have no idea why you posted that as a reply to me; It is a complete non-sequitur.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If you can't see the big difference between a war in which the US was a direct participant, firing missiles and dropping bombs from day one, and one in which she was a mere bystander who may perhaps be dragged in at some future point, then I don't know how anyone can help you.

They are both proxy wars. The only difference in the case of Ukraine the US is financing that war so that Ukraine can die against Russia but in the case of Iran, US is cuckolded by Israel as its proxy for bombing Iran for them. More to the point, both wars involve US tax money being used to kill people.

I suppose if you use the word proxy enough times, you'll never be wrong. Using it for Russia's invasion of Ukraine is lunatic fringe level stuff. Given the US' presence on the world stage, it's probably not hard to connect its military hardware or funding to just about anything you want.

Russia amassed troops on Ukraine's border. Russia invaded driving straight for Ukraine's seat of power. The US and the entire world thought Ukraine would be toast in a matter of weeks. That it didn't happen that way and all the proxy aspects that now fit the scene is Russia's fault due to Russian ineptness and corruption. Sure it can look like a proxy war now in that this historic US foe is being depleted but that is completely Russia's doing.

The US and other western nations have been providing aid to a sovereign nation for its own self defense against Russia's territorial expansion. Nations do not get to invade other nations to create a buffer against a perceived enemy.

 

[RVonse]

Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.

Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

I don't have a problem with Israel having the right to exist with your definition as long as it is peaceful. Stay within your original post WW2 assigned borders and then mind your own business! Where I have the problem is when the US has to provide Israel their supposed right to exist. Especially when Israel's borders continue to expand well beyond what was agreed to post WW2.

Yes the US is their ally but we shouldn't have to fight their wars for expansion of their borders. We should provide federal tax dollars for our own people first.

If that makes me an anti-Zionist then I guess I am.

 

[laughing dog]

What is a "zionist speaker"? Yes, it will be very difficult for us to get out of Iran. Trump got us there. Would a democrat have been bambzelled into invading Iran? Probably not. Netananu tried to talk Biden into it, but he was too savvy.

We will never know whether Trump was coerced or whether he was just stupid.

According to the reports, Trump was just stupid.

 

[laughing dog]

Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.

Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

FIFY. Strictly speaking, anti-Zionists are against Israel existence as a Jewish state. It's "replacement" is a separate issue.

 

[laughing dog]

If you can't see the big difference between a war in which the US was a direct participant, firing missiles and dropping bombs from day one, and one in which she was a mere bystander who may perhaps be dragged in at some future point, then I don't know how anyone can help you.

They are both proxy wars. The only difference in the case of Ukraine the US is financing that war so that Ukraine can die against Russia but in the case of Iran, US is cuckolded by Israel as its proxy for bombing Iran for them. More to the point, both wars involve US tax money being used to kill people.

According to the sources I have seen, the main funders of the Ukraine's war are Ukraine ($155 billion annually), the EU ($60 billion annually on average) and the US ($50 billion annually on average).

 

[ZiprHead]

This thread was created by someone who loves listening to anti-Semitic white supremacists (Tucker Carlson etc).

I'm not anti-Semitic and neither is Tucker Carlson. Nor is anyone against Israel as a US ally.

What we are against is being Israel's cuckold and Washington being controlled and overrun by foreign influence.

We do not live in a Democracy if a foreign government tells our leaders what to do.

That describes Trump quite accurately.

 

[ZiprHead]

Hakeem Jeffries is slated by the Democrats to become our next speaker of the house. And no one else is even pretending to be in the running.
The Democrats don't even bother pretending they are not being steered by special interests. This is the first step towards fulfilling my prediction absolutely nothing will change with either the Iran war or our unhealthy relationship with Israel.

Jefferies might even claim differently but he will be fighting right along side Trump for their blow jobs on Netanyahu's cock. Just wait and see. Look for the proof as to what he does and not what he says.

The blue wave in congress will not change anything about the Iran war or the economy. And we won't fix our problems by voting either.

The progressives of the Dems party are the ones who reject Jeffries. The more conservative side is the side that would support Hakeem.

You been told before to stop following idiots who lie to you but here again you post another dipshit liar.

 

[ZiprHead]

If you can't see the big difference between a war in which the US was a direct participant, firing missiles and dropping bombs from day one, and one in which she was a mere bystander who may perhaps be dragged in at some future point, then I don't know how anyone can help you.

They are both proxy wars. The only difference in the case of Ukraine the US is financing that war so that Ukraine can die against Russia but in the case of Iran, US is cuckolded by Israel as its proxy for bombing Iran for them. More to the point, both wars involve US tax money being used to kill people.

According to the sources I have seen, the main funders of the Ukraine's war are Ukraine ($155 billion annually), the EU ($60 billion annually on average) and the US ($50 billion annually on average).

That was before Trump took Putin's side.

 

[Toni]

Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.

Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

While there can be anti-zionists who are not anti-semites, I am hard-pressed to come up with too many possible scenarios where this would apply. One would be the ultra-orthodox Jews who think that Israel should be reestablished as a Messianic kingdom and not as a product human effort, e.g. by secular Jews who bought up land in the Ottoman Empire, and then defended the nascent state from onslaught by Arab armies.

However, I am hard-pressed to think of another reason to be anti-zionist but not anti-semitic. Surely, if it's ok for there to be almost a dozen Arab states and even more Muslim states, it should be ok for there to be a single Jewish state to serve as the homeland for Jewish people.

There are people who don’t think that Jews should not exist but who don’t believe in an established Jewish state—ie, Israel. Israel as it was established post WWII did not arise from the peoples who lived there but was formed and imposed by the winners of WWII ( extremely shorthand version of what/how happened. Arctish had some excellent posts re: formation of Israel.)

Quite obviously, I am not an historian.

 

[ZiprHead]

Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.

Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist.

Bullshit. Zionism means God gave Israel to the Jews and the Jews only.

Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

Again, bullshit.

While there can be anti-zionists who are not anti-semites, I am hard-pressed to come up with too many possible scenarios where this would apply. One would be the ultra-orthodox Jews who think that Israel should be reestablished as a Messianic kingdom and not as a product human effort, e.g. by secular Jews who bought up land in the Ottoman Empire, and then defended the nascent state from onslaught by Arab armies.

However, I am hard-pressed to think of another reason to be anti-zionist but not anti-semitic. Surely, if it's ok for there to be almost a dozen Arab states and even more Muslim states, it should be ok for there to be a single Jewish state to serve as the homeland for Jewish people.

It's certainly not the win you think it is.

 

[Derec]

FIFY. Strictly speaking, anti-Zionists are against Israel existence as a Jewish state.

At least you admit as much. Some on here are really confused about what what antizionists are all about.

It's "replacement" is a separate issue.

The intended replacement is not really up in the air. Just like if you think Ukraine should be abolished as a sovereign state, it's not like it's any mystery who would take over.

 

[laughing dog]

FIFY. Strictly speaking, anti-Zionists are against Israel existence as a Jewish state.

At least you admit as much. Some on here are really confused about what what antizionists are all about.

It's "replacement" is a separate issue.

The intended replacement is not really up in the air. Just like if you think Ukraine should be abolished as a sovereign state, it's not like it's any mystery who would take over.

While I agree that if Israel is "replaced", it is most likely with a Muslim state, that does not mean anti-zionists necessarily want to replace Israel with a Muslim state. So, your definition was incorrect

 

[laughing dog]

Getting back to the OP. Successful politicians know how to play the game. Hakeem Jeffries was going to be Speaker. There is no downside in supporting his elevation but a big downside in opposing it.