Thoughts about the Consciousness

[ryan]

I know that there are extrinsic properties. Intrinsic properties do not change just based on a change in position.

The relationship between the two.

The relationship between the two completely depends on extrinsic properties.

 

[DBT]

The relationship between the two.

The relationship between the two completely depends on extrinsic properties.

And that there are two or more distinct but identical sets of conscious experiences being generated by each separate brain..which don't remain identical for more than a moment as separation causes unique informational changes to form in each one of the copies, including the original.

 

[ryan]

The relationship between the two completely depends on extrinsic properties.

And that there are two or more distinct but identical sets of conscious experiences being generated by each separate brain..which don't remain identical for more than a moment as separation causes unique informational changes to form in each one of the copies, including the original.

I am not sure what you are getting at. Those are extrinsic properties too.

 

[DBT]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Those are extrinsic properties too.

A brain is not separate from its environment and its inputs. Information from the external world acts upon the brain altering its activity and connections in specific ways....the brain having evolved the means to gather information and respond to it.

 

[ryan]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Those are extrinsic properties too.

A brain is not separate from its environment and its inputs. Information from the external world acts upon the brain altering its activity and connections in specific ways....the brain having evolved the means to gather information and respond to it.

A brain's environment is not the brain. A brain's inputs may of may not be the brain; it depends on how you define a brain.

Anyways, let the inputs be the same too.

 

[bilby]

A brain is not separate from its environment and its inputs. Information from the external world acts upon the brain altering its activity and connections in specific ways....the brain having evolved the means to gather information and respond to it.

A brain's environment is not the brain. A brain's inputs may of may not be the brain; it depends on how you define a brain.

Anyways, let the inputs be the same too.

Two identical objects occupying the same space at the same time are one object. So that is a contradiction. Two is not the same as one. A thought experiment premised on a contradiction can lead to any result you choose; but that result tells you exactly nothing about reality.

 

[ryan]

A brain's environment is not the brain. A brain's inputs may of may not be the brain; it depends on how you define a brain.

Anyways, let the inputs be the same too.

Two identical objects occupying the same space at the same time are one object. So that is a contradiction. Two is not the same as one. A thought experiment premised on a contradiction can lead to any result you choose; but that result tells you exactly nothing about reality.

Where did I say they had to occupy the same space?

 

[Juma]

Two identical objects occupying the same space at the same time are one object. So that is a contradiction. Two is not the same as one. A thought experiment premised on a contradiction can lead to any result you choose; but that result tells you exactly nothing about reality.

Where did I say they had to occupy the same space?

You asked what intrinsic property made these identical bodies having two minds and not one.
My answer was: separation. They do not overlap in spacetime and thus are separate systems.

If, on the othe other hand, the alien somehow fucked up and created the copy partly inside the other then maybe we could talk about a single, but probably short lived mind.

 

[ryan]

Where did I say they had to occupy the same space?

You asked what intrinsic property made these identical bodies having two minds and not one.
My answer was: separation. They do not overlap in spacetime and thus are separate systems.

Separation is not relevant when it comes to questioning their intrinsic differences.

If, on the othe other hand, the alien somehow fucked up and created the copy partly inside the other then maybe we could talk about a single, but probably short lived mind.

Why do we need to have two minds in the same space and time? I don't think fermions can do this unless you add a 5th dimension.

There are two bodies: one in the ship and one in the house. For one second, they are intrinsically the exact same body. For that second, they are physically indistinguishable. But the original body is different than the copy in a nonphysical way - intrinsically speaking.

 

[Juma]

You asked what intrinsic property made these identical bodies having two minds and not one.
My answer was: separation. They do not overlap in spacetime and thus are separate systems.

Separation is not relevant when it comes to questioning their intrinsic differences.

If, on the othe other hand, the alien somehow fucked up and created the copy partly inside the other then maybe we could talk about a single, but probably short lived mind.

Why do we need to have two minds in the same space and time? I don't think fermions can do this unless you add a 5th dimension.

There are two bodies: one in the ship and one in the house. For one second, they are intrinsically the exact same body. For that second, they are physically indistinguishable. But the original body is different than the copy in a nonphysical way - intrinsically speaking.

There is no difference between two bodies either than their position.

Why you need some other "intrinsical" difference?

 

[ryan]

Separation is not relevant when it comes to questioning their intrinsic differences.

If, on the othe other hand, the alien somehow fucked up and created the copy partly inside the other then maybe we could talk about a single, but probably short lived mind.

Why do we need to have two minds in the same space and time? I don't think fermions can do this unless you add a 5th dimension.

There are two bodies: one in the ship and one in the house. For one second, they are intrinsically the exact same body. For that second, they are physically indistinguishable. But the original body is different than the copy in a nonphysical way - intrinsically speaking.

There is no difference between two bodies either than their position.

Why you need some other "intrinsical" difference?

Other than it is fascinating that there might be a difference between two physically identical objects, here's a practical reason. Imagine that we see the day where they can upload your physical information into a computer. One day you find out that you have a life-threatening illness with a 50/50 chance for a perfect recovery. Luckily, your information is stored in a computer, and all they need to do is make a 3D printed copy of you.

Some people think that there wouldn't be a difference between you and the copy. But I think that your consciousness ends, and your twin/clone lives on.

 

[Juma]

Separation is not relevant when it comes to questioning their intrinsic differences.

If, on the othe other hand, the alien somehow fucked up and created the copy partly inside the other then maybe we could talk about a single, but probably short lived mind.

Why do we need to have two minds in the same space and time? I don't think fermions can do this unless you add a 5th dimension.

There are two bodies: one in the ship and one in the house. For one second, they are intrinsically the exact same body. For that second, they are physically indistinguishable. But the original body is different than the copy in a nonphysical way - intrinsically speaking.

There is no difference between two bodies either than their position.

Why you need some other "intrinsical" difference?

Other than it is fascinating that there might be a difference between two physically identical objects, here's a practical reason. Imagine that we see the day where they can upload your physical information into a computer. One day you find out that you have a life-threatening illness with a 50/50 chance for a perfect recovery. Luckily, your information is stored in a computer, and all they need to do is make a 3D printed copy of you.

Some people think that there wouldn't be a difference between you and the copy. But I think that your consciousness ends, and your twin/clone lives on.

Of course. But what heck was that gibberish about intrinsic differences?

 

[ryan]

Other than it is fascinating that there might be a difference between two physically identical objects, here's a practical reason. Imagine that we see the day where they can upload your physical information into a computer. One day you find out that you have a life-threatening illness with a 50/50 chance for a perfect recovery. Luckily, your information is stored in a computer, and all they need to do is make a 3D printed copy of you.

Some people think that there wouldn't be a difference between you and the copy. But I think that your consciousness ends, and your twin/clone lives on.

Of course. But what heck was that gibberish about intrinsic differences?

[sigh]

There is no intrinsic physical difference between the two bodies. For the second that they are physically identical, there is a different kind of intrinsic difference that is not physical.

 

[Juma]

Of course. But what heck was that gibberish about intrinsic differences?

[sigh]

There is no intrinsic physical difference between the two bodies. For the second that they are physically identical, there is a different kind of intrinsic difference that is not physical.

? Then describe what this difference is. I do not believe there is a such difference.

 

[ryan]

[sigh]

There is no intrinsic physical difference between the two bodies. For the second that they are physically identical, there is a different kind of intrinsic difference that is not physical.

? Then describe what this difference is.

I think the Greeks called it essence, I have read that some call it a type of identity. In my opinion, it's an identity that is somehow preserved through a stream of consciousness. Their minds are identical for a second, but one is not the other.

 

[Juma]

? Then describe what this difference is.

I think the Greeks called it essence, I have read that some call it a type of identity. In my opinion, it's an identity that is somehow preserved through a stream of consciousness. Their minds are identical for a second, but one is not the other.

But that is not a property of the minds. It is just something an observer attributes.

 

[Mageth]

? Then describe what this difference is.

I think the Greeks called it essence, I have read that some call it a type of identity. In my opinion, it's an identity that is somehow preserved through a stream of consciousness. Their minds are identical for a second, but one is not the other.

By the terms of your thought experiment, you have two of them, so of course one is not the other, even if they are "identical for a second".

(I think your confusion may be in part due to your conflating "identical" with "the same"...they may be identical bodies/minds, but they are never the same body/mind.)

 

[ryan]

I think the Greeks called it essence, I have read that some call it a type of identity. In my opinion, it's an identity that is somehow preserved through a stream of consciousness. Their minds are identical for a second, but one is not the other.

But that is not a property of the minds. It is just something an observer attributes.

Well I guess it is an extrinsic property temporally speaking instead of spatially speaking.

 

[Juma]

But that is not a property of the minds. It is just something an observer attributes.

Well I guess it is an extrinsic property temporally speaking instead of spatially speaking.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[ryan]

I think the Greeks called it essence, I have read that some call it a type of identity. In my opinion, it's an identity that is somehow preserved through a stream of consciousness. Their minds are identical for a second, but one is not the other.

By the terms of your thought experiment, you have two of them, so of course one is not the other, even if they are "identical for a second".

(I think your confusion may be in part due to your conflating "identical" with "the same"...they may be identical bodies/minds, but they are never the same body/mind.)

That's what I am saying. That's why I put, "one is not the other" in this post you quoted.