How much are genetic variations responsible for the U.S. black-white IQ differences?

[Jokodo]

I have been perfectly honest, and I am in full agreement that the results of the poll will be reflective of mere prejudices, but not because of the way I constructed the poll. Our social systems and established common policies are built on the best guesses held with excessive passion, not on the uncertainty. The "I don't know" answer would merely obscure that reality, as would be intended.

What does the bolded sentence even mean?

So I suppose you, ApostateAbe, are not going to get a bit more explicit about which of our "established common policies" are "built on the best guesses" and don't make sense under the condition of uncertainty?

 

[ApostateAbe]

What does the bolded sentence even mean?

So I suppose you, ApostateAbe, are not going to get a bit more explicit about which of our "established common policies" are "built on the best guesses" and don't make sense under the condition of uncertainty?

I have other threads devoted to those topics, i.e. Why the science of intelligence matters: affirmative action for college admission but not for graduation. The established political dogma goes well beyond the belief that the race IQ gaps are no part genetic: it is that the gaps are completely irrelevant. To assign the race IQ gaps any relevance means losing the next election. Nobody in politics or leadership positions of any sort acknowledges that those gaps even exist. It is a central explanatory point of social science, essential to making sense of racial inequalities even if it is 0% genetic, but the public remains in the dark about it.

 

[ApostateAbe]

The black-white average IQ gap in the USA is an established fact in psychology, and estimates of the gap range from 10 to 15 points. The existence of the gap is not the question, but the cause of the gap is the question and often debated. The cause of the gap could be either genetic variations, environmental variations (education, diet, health, etc.), or both. In your personal opinion, how much are genetic variations responsible for the U.S. black-white IQ differences? If you are unsure (and I believe everyone should be at least a little unsure), then take your best guess. The poll is anonymous.

I am puzzled by this sort of thing. Is it possible to establish scientific facts by majority vote? Is there some kind of metaphysical phenomena by which personal opinion can affect reality.

Why would an intelligent person believe it was?

No, absolutely not, science is not determined by popular vote. Still, it pays to be conscious of the irrationalities of the public. What the public thinks about the science has greatest political relevance, as lawmakers listen to voters first, scientists second. Genetically-engineered foods are forcibly labeled by law and unmarketable (or legally banned) in much of the world, because there is a 50% gap between what the public thinks and what relevant scientists think.

 

[Trodon]

This is a dangerous topic.

Candor on this subject can be dangerous. Because this is one of the Rules, "The owners of Talk Freethought reserve the right to remove member access to any or all areas of this site for any reason," I shall proceed tepidly.

If the environment in which one is raised was exclusively, or even primarily responsible for racial IQ differences I believe that there would be more variation in how different races perform intellectually.

Instead, we find that Ashkenazi Jews tend to perform well academically, even when they are poor, if they are given a decent chance. The same can nearly be said of Chinese immigrants. This is true everywhere in the world these people live and move.

Chinese babies, when adopted by white couples, still tend to perform better academically than white babies.

Because I value the Talk Freethought website, I would like to be warned, rather than banned, if the mods think that I am pressing too much against the barriers of political correctness.

By the way, I am a white Gentile.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Candor on this subject can be dangerous. Because this is one of the Rules, "The owners of Talk Freethought reserve the right to remove member access to any or all areas of this site for any reason," I shall proceed tepidly.

If the environment in which one is raised was exclusively, or even primarily responsible for racial IQ differences I believe that there would be more variation in how different races perform intellectually.

But you are assuming the environment follows racial lines. When you look at it racially you get a blurred picture. When you look at how kids turn out compared to the socioeconomic status of their parents, however, you get a good relationship--and you find the racial differences vanish. They were really just proxies.

 

[Trodon]

Candor on this subject can be dangerous. Because this is one of the Rules, "The owners of Talk Freethought reserve the right to remove member access to any or all areas of this site for any reason," I shall proceed tepidly.

If the environment in which one is raised was exclusively, or even primarily responsible for racial IQ differences I believe that there would be more variation in how different races perform intellectually.

But you are assuming the environment follows racial lines. When you look at it racially you get a blurred picture. When you look at how kids turn out compared to the socioeconomic status of their parents, however, you get a good relationship--and you find the racial differences vanish. They were really just proxies.

In 1995 SAT scores for black students with family incomes of at least $70,000 a year averaged less than SAT scores for white students with family incomes of no more than $10,000 a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income.png

In 1995 SAT scores for black students whose parents had graduate degres were lower than for white students whose parents only had high school degrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Education.png

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IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

 

[Canard DuJour]

But you are assuming the environment follows racial lines. When you look at it racially you get a blurred picture. When you look at how kids turn out compared to the socioeconomic status of their parents, however, you get a good relationship--and you find the racial differences vanish. They were really just proxies.

In 1995 SAT scores for black students with family incomes of at least $70,000 a year averaged less than SAT scores for white students with family incomes of no more than $10,000 a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income.png

In 1995 SAT scores for black students whose parents had graduate degres were lower than for white students whose parents only had high school degrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Education.png

------

IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

If you make no racist assumptions, the second two suggest environmental factors if anything.

 

[Trodon]

Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic

In 1995 SAT scores for black students with family incomes of at least $70,000 a year averaged less than SAT scores for white students with family incomes of no more than $10,000 a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income.png

In 1995 SAT scores for black students whose parents had graduate degres were lower than for white students whose parents only had high school degrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Education.png

------

IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

If you make no racist assumptions, the second two suggest environmental factors if anything.

How so?

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Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

-------

Because the discussion about innate racial differences is coerced many geneticists are afraid to go public with their findings.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

No one has defined "race" for me yet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Curious. Is there some study where DNA and chromosomal tests were double blind studied to determine which were the smart people and which were the dumb ones, and then they checked to see if they were right... and then correlate the race?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you are assuming the environment follows racial lines. When you look at it racially you get a blurred picture. When you look at how kids turn out compared to the socioeconomic status of their parents, however, you get a good relationship--and you find the racial differences vanish. They were really just proxies.

In 1995 SAT scores for black students with family incomes of at least $70,000 a year averaged less than SAT scores for white students with family incomes of no more than $10,000 a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income.png

In 1995 SAT scores for black students whose parents had graduate degres were lower than for white students whose parents only had high school degrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Education.png

------

IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

Income isn't the only factor.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you make no racist assumptions, the second two suggest environmental factors if anything.

How so?

-------

Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

One of the studies' findings was that the IQs of transracially adopted black children did not differ significantly from that of children raised by their biological parents in the same area.

That would seem to imply that social conditions are extremely important and influential. Also, the study doesn't imply what you said it implied. It was not able to make a clear distinction between genetic and social influences.

Another study that was revisited recently, as reported by NPR was that children in a family that were moved into a better neighborhood had significantly better long-term outcomes than those that stayed where they were living. The initial study saw that the short-term benefits didn't exist by moving, but when the study was revisited things changed greatly when viewed over the long-term.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I'm still debating a final number, but I'd have to say the number is the upper quartile but probably not 100%. My reasoning is that genetic variation is what causes black people to have "black" skin. Black people are historically underprivileged in virtually all social categories. Living in poor conditions, with poor nutrition, and poor schooling leads to poor IQ scores, where "IQ" is defined as a quantitative assessment of how well one does on IQ tests. Therefore, genetic variation leads to the black-white IQ differences.

This is just an opinion, of course.

Now, the way to test for what the OP was probably asking about is to correct all social injustices towards black people, level the employment, wealth, health, and education playing fields across all of society, let that sink in for a couple of generations, then test everyone's IQ. I look forward to that experiment.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Also there's a curious lack of an "I don't know" option in the poll.

 

[ApostateAbe]

No one has defined "race" for me yet.

A "race" is a population within a species with genetic frequencies different from the genetic frequencies of other populations within the same species caused by a difference of geography of the ancestors. I think that is the way it is traditionally understood in evolutionary biology: fundamentally spectral, not discrete.

- - - Updated - - -

Also there's a curious lack of an "I don't know" option in the poll.

That was by design. Certainty is not required: just give it your best guess.

 

[Canard DuJour]

If you make no racist assumptions, the second two suggest environmental factors if anything.

How so?

Because you get your genes from your parents, not unrelated people who look like you. If academic attainment or an IQ of 115 is n% genetic and heritable for white people, it's no less so for black people (otherwise you're assuming, not different heritage, but different heritability). Yet here you have people with certain phenotypic characterteristics ending up more like unrelated people with the same phenotypic characterteristics than the parents they've inherited their genes from. Suggesting, if anything, that something about the phenotypic characteristic (in this case being black) tends to negatively affect innate IQ.

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Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

What I said. There are some things you can control for by switching parents. This isn't one of them.

-------

Because the discussion about innate racial differences is coerced many geneticists are afraid to go public with their findings.

It's also a big attention grabber, book seller, lecture circuit and TV appearance magnet etc. There are, unsurprisingly, others falling over each other to present some very sloppy science to a ready audience of uncritical thinkers.

 

[Canard DuJour]

Also there's a curious lack of an "I don't know" option in the poll.

That was by design. Certainty is not required: just give it your best guess.

OK, my best guess is that the environment acts as a multiplier of tiny genetic differences and switches groups of genes on or off per individual with decreasing plasticity over her lifetime. So it'd be misleading at best to say any indivdual's intelligence is x% genetic, therefore 100 - x% environmental, and nigh impossible with fuzzy groups like races. We can, however, say that IQ test results certainly have some environmental component. So I'd say group IQ test score differences are unknowable % genetic minus y, where y could be bigger or smaller than the test score differences.

So, yeah, an "I don't know" option is required because the question smuggles in a host of dodgy assumptions.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think white people are genetically disposed to believing that IQ disparities between Caucasians, Asians, Hispanics, and Blacks are based on genetic variations. Ironic.

 

[Trodon]

Curious. Is there some study where DNA and chromosomal tests were double blind studied to determine which were the smart people and which were the dumb ones, and then they checked to see if they were right... and then correlate the race?

As of now, DNA can determine race, not intelligence. In China people are doing research on locating genes that cause superior intelligence, but research like that is not encouraged in the United States.

 

[Trodon]

How so?

Because you get your genes from your parents, not unrelated people who look like you. If academic attainment or an IQ of 115 is n% genetic and heritable for white people, it's no less so for black people (otherwise you're assuming, not different heritage, but different heritability). Yet here you have people with certain phenotypic characterteristics ending up more like unrelated people with the same phenotypic characterteristics than the parents they've inherited their genes from. Suggesting, if anything, that something about the phenotypic characteristic (in this case being black) tends to negatively affect innate IQ.

-------

Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/Race-differences-in-average-IQ-are-largely-genetic.aspx

What I said. There are some things you can control for by switching parents. This isn't one of them.

-------

Because the discussion about innate racial differences is coerced many geneticists are afraid to go public with their findings.

It's also a big attention grabber, book seller, lecture circuit and TV appearance magnet etc. There are, unsurprisingly, others falling over each other to present some very sloppy science to a ready audience of uncritical thinkers.

The IQ's of siblings resemble each other more than the IQ's of non related people. The IQ's of identical twins resemble each other more than the IQ's of siblings who are not identical twins. The IQ's of twins who were raised in other families resemble each other more than the IQ's of unrelated people raised in the same family. All of this strongly indicates that genetics is more important than determining IQ than environment.

In Freakonomics Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner demonstrate that reading to children has little or no effect on the academic achievement of the children, but that having lots of books in the house does. They reasoned that parents of superior intelligence are likely to accumulate books, and that having intelligent parents is what really matters.