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What is Libertarianism?

Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person. And no, owning private property is NOT an aggression. Proudhon's declaration against Earl Grey Tea is nonsense to us. That is a joke, Earl Grey is Proper Tea.
As you observe, people have the most disparate ideas as to what is and isn't aggression. Is there a way to determine who's right?
 
Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person. And no, owning private property is NOT an aggression. Proudhon's declaration against Earl Grey Tea is nonsense to us. That is a joke, Earl Grey is Proper Tea.
As you observe, people have the most disparate ideas as to what is and isn't aggression. Is there a way to determine who's right?

It certainly wouldn't be to ask Jason Harvestdancer. Siezing the commons and making them private IS AGGRESSION.
 
Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person. And no, owning private property is NOT an aggression. Proudhon's declaration against Earl Grey Tea is nonsense to us. That is a joke, Earl Grey is Proper Tea.
As you observe, people have the most disparate ideas as to what is and isn't aggression. Is there a way to determine who's right?
The "Libertarian" answer will prove to be PROPERTY RIGHTS.
 
I think it's hilarious how libertarians can be so incredibly rigid on freedoms and deregulation except when it comes to property rights. I can't see any logic to that. BTW "libertarian socialists" are just called anarchists. This is the only thing that sets anarchists apart from libertarians, and anarchists are left and libertarian right.

At least anarchism has a logical internal structure. Libertarians just seem to be for injustice for the hell of it. Because unfairness is fun or something. I don't get it. I've read up on natural rights and it baffles me how anybody finds it persuasive.

I think more than anything, what is needed is sufficient democracy combined with the power to properly regulate and distribute the output of society. Everybody needs a piece of the pie. So what we need mostly is as Einstein pointed out so long ago...imagination and a social will to cooperate. This sure seems like not a lot to ask, but you will find some Libertarians who are perfectly willing to toss much of society under the bus. Their reasoning is that they "can't afford a free meal for every beggar that comes along." They regard unemployment for many as just deserts. That is the true nature of Libertarianism. It really has nothing to do with universal human values or rights.

Step one should be to figure out what society is for? Why do we go to work? What problems does it solve? What is fairness? Depending on how all those goals are formulated different policies make sense. But to me, Libertarianism just seems like the rigid application of a certain set of rules... for no reason.
 
Now that I've gotten all the preliminaries out of the way, I will finally come out and describe libertarianism itself. It actually starts from some simple premises, and everything is derived from them.

One way would be to say that libertarianism is the political philosophy dedicated to maximizing the rights of the individual. Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person. And no, owning private property is NOT an aggression. Proudhon's declaration against Earl Grey Tea is nonsense to us. That is a joke, Earl Grey is Proper Tea.

A key word is "initiate". The NAP is not pacifism. A person is completely within his rights to defend himself.

What makes libertarianism fairly unique in the political sphere is that said principle is applied to the government, instead of always carving out exceptions for the government.

Since no person has the right to initiate aggression, no person may delegate that right. Not even if they get together in a large group and do so by voting.

Everything else libertarian derives from that.

It's not that we are anti-government. It is just that while there are various people or groups that feel they do have a right to initiate aggression, one entity does so on a scale far beyond the rest and therefore must be most carefully watched and guarded against. Who killed more people, Adolph Hitler or Charles Manson?

This is why we are in favor of gay marriage and drug legalization. People have a right to do whatever they want as long as they don't violate the rights of others, and it would take an act of aggression to prevent or punish those who wish to engage in gay marriage or drug legalization.

It's also the reason we are in favor of the free market. If two people voluntarily enter a transaction, no third party has any authority or right to say otherwise and it takes an act of aggression to say otherwise.

As much as I understand Libertarians invariably deny the legitimacy of preemptive war (I've always given them credit for that much at least) this falls flat when it comes to implementation.

"Zero aggression" is a valid principle in and of itself and is not something unique to libertarians, nor should it be. It also has the inherent flaw of IDENTIFYING aggression, as in the case of a man who fabricates an aggressive act in order to mobilize an aggressive (and immoral) action. Police officers have already learned this trick with their now infamous "I was in fear for my life!" defense and Israel demonstrates this on a daily basis, justifying their systematic and overwhelming aggression against Palestinians with the claim of Islamist provocation and "We are only defending ourselves!"

Getting a government to go along with a "zero aggression principle" is a laudable goal in its own right, but that hardly sums up the core of libertarianism. That's actually what most people would call "Not being an asshole."


And there's a bigger problem: "Aggression" and "violence" are not actually synonymous when it comes to politics. It's been 200 years since von Clausewitz famously pointed put that "war is the continuation of politics by other means." So if a government aggressively seizes your property but does so without the explicit use or threat of violence, is this no longer aggression? If a corporation performs a hostile takeover or a leveraged buyout of its competitors... not aggression? If a manufacturer of shoes deliberately sells a superior product at a financial loss to every store in town SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of driving his competitors out of business -- and futhermore, proceeds to take over their shops and properties in order to "save" them from the bankruptcy he himself drove them to -- is this not aggression?

In the United States right now we have a government that has effectively legalized corruption at every level of government in the form of a campaign finance system that welcomes private contribution with little or no accountability; you can drive up to Capitol Hill with a dumptruck full of money and a Lockheed Martin logo on the side of it and announce "I'll give five million dollars to the campaign of every senator who votes to triple spending on the Joint Strike Fighter." If I were to deliver some "protected speech" to the County Sheiff('s campaign fund) in exchange for him telling his deputies to take a coffee break whenever you and your family call 9/11 (a fact which I have "accidentally" made known to every petty crook in town) are you telling me that isn't aggression on my part?

There are various ways to disenfranchise and oppress people and not all of them have to do with violence. People who have the means can find another way to compromise their enemies; violence is merely the last refuge of the incompetent.
 
Now that I've gotten all the preliminaries out of the way, I will finally come out and describe libertarianism itself. It actually starts from some simple premises, and everything is derived from them.

One way would be to say that libertarianism is the political philosophy dedicated to maximizing the rights of the individual. Another way is with the NAP or ZAP, which means "Non-Aggression Principle" or "Zero-Aggression Principle." This means that no person has the right to initiate aggression against another person. And no, owning private property is NOT an aggression. Proudhon's declaration against Earl Grey Tea is nonsense to us. That is a joke, Earl Grey is Proper Tea.

A key word is "initiate". The NAP is not pacifism. A person is completely within his rights to defend himself.

What makes libertarianism fairly unique in the political sphere is that said principle is applied to the government, instead of always carving out exceptions for the government.

Since no person has the right to initiate aggression, no person may delegate that right. Not even if they get together in a large group and do so by voting.

Everything else libertarian derives from that.

It's not that we are anti-government. It is just that while there are various people or groups that feel they do have a right to initiate aggression, one entity does so on a scale far beyond the rest and therefore must be most carefully watched and guarded against. Who killed more people, Adolph Hitler or Charles Manson?

This is why we are in favor of gay marriage and drug legalization. People have a right to do whatever they want as long as they don't violate the rights of others, and it would take an act of aggression to prevent or punish those who wish to engage in gay marriage or drug legalization.

It's also the reason we are in favor of the free market. If two people voluntarily enter a transaction, no third party has any authority or right to say otherwise and it takes an act of aggression to say otherwise.

As much as I understand Libertarians invariably deny the legitimacy of preemptive war (I've always given them credit for that much at least) this falls flat when it comes to implementation.

"Zero aggression" is a valid principle in and of itself and is not something unique to libertarians, nor should it be. It also has the inherent flaw of IDENTIFYING aggression, as in the case of a man who fabricates an aggressive act in order to mobilize an aggressive (and immoral) action. Police officers have already learned this trick with their now infamous "I was in fear for my life!" defense and Israel demonstrates this on a daily basis, justifying their systematic and overwhelming aggression against Palestinians with the claim of Islamist provocation and "We are only defending ourselves!"

Getting a government to go along with a "zero aggression principle" is a laudable goal in its own right, but that hardly sums up the core of libertarianism. That's actually what most people would call "Not being an asshole."


And there's a bigger problem: "Aggression" and "violence" are not actually synonymous when it comes to politics. It's been 200 years since von Clausewitz famously pointed put that "war is the continuation of politics by other means." So if a government aggressively seizes your property but does so without the explicit use or threat of violence, is this no longer aggression? If a corporation performs a hostile takeover or a leveraged buyout of its competitors... not aggression? If a manufacturer of shoes deliberately sells a superior product at a financial loss to every store in town SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of driving his competitors out of business -- and futhermore, proceeds to take over their shops and properties in order to "save" them from the bankruptcy he himself drove them to -- is this not aggression?

In the United States right now we have a government that has effectively legalized corruption at every level of government in the form of a campaign finance system that welcomes private contribution with little or no accountability; you can drive up to Capitol Hill with a dumptruck full of money and a Lockheed Martin logo on the side of it and announce "I'll give five million dollars to the campaign of every senator who votes to triple spending on the Joint Strike Fighter." If I were to deliver some "protected speech" to the County Sheiff('s campaign fund) in exchange for him telling his deputies to take a coffee break whenever you and your family call 9/11 (a fact which I have "accidentally" made known to every petty crook in town) are you telling me that isn't aggression on my part?

There are various ways to disenfranchise and oppress people and not all of them have to do with violence. People who have the means can find another way to compromise their enemies; violence is merely the last refuge of the incompetent.

What heresy! Why does something so heretical happen to be so right?:D
 
So the first and foundational principle of libertarianism is what your mom told you growing up, that you didn't have the right to hit people, at least not first,

AND

The only limitations people need on what they can and cannot do is whether or not their actions harm someone else?

AND

We don't carve out a special exception for the government but instead apply those rules to the government. That's a very important point.
 
Still waiting for a professed libertarian to say in clear concise DECLARATIVE sentences what libertarianism is, NOT what it is not.

I have read many posts throughout my time on the these board saying what libertarianism is NOT. the scenario goes something like this. a non libertarian will make a statement about what they think libertarianism is or perhaps ask a specific question about something ascribed to libertarianism and the PL (professed libertarians) here say that's wrong and then we all go down the garden path of arguing about the libertarianism IS NOT, and we never say what it IS.

Now Jason has stated what he sees as its basis, so what policies do libertarians draw from this basis and how do they propose to make those policies work?
 
Here are two transition questions from the slavery derail. We have heard a lot so far about the libertarian philosophy but almost nothing about how this rather idealistic philosophy would work in practice, where most idealistic philosophies fail, see Marxism for example.

In the coming libertarian paradise will people be able to voluntarily sell themselves into slavery? Will they be able to sell their children into slavery?

=========​

That the answer to both has to be ’yes' seems to be an unavoidable consequence of the libertarian principles of maximum individual freedom, government non-interference in the operation of the free market and parents in effect owning their own children.
 
I just remembered a good libertarian joke, one that is funny because it is true.

How can you more than triple the libertarian party's vote for president?

By lowering the voting age to thirteen.
 
In the coming libertarian paradise will people be able to voluntarily sell themselves into slavery? Will they be able to sell their children into slavery?

=========​

That the answer to both has to be ’yes' seems to be an unavoidable consequence of the libertarian principles of maximum individual freedom, government non-interference in the operation of the free market and parents in effect owning their own children.
:picardfacepalm:

In the event that you have ambitions to be a serious participant in an intellectual discussion and not just another purveyor of "[/conservolibertarian]"-style strawmen, then either
(1) quote a libertarian on this board saying it's a libertarian principle that parents in effect own their children, or
(2) stop trying to paraphrase your opponents. You have no talent for it. You are unable to distinguish your own premises from other people's long enough to avoid committing "You believe X; I believe X implies Y; therefore you believe Y." fallacies.
 
Here are two transition questions from the slavery derail. We have heard a lot so far about the libertarian philosophy but almost nothing about how this rather idealistic philosophy would work in practice, where most idealistic philosophies fail, see Marxism for example.

In the coming libertarian paradise will people be able to voluntarily sell themselves into slavery? Will they be able to sell their children into slavery?

And even if we don't ask such slippery slope questions and temper such questions and scenarios, we still hear very little affirmative. Is libertarianism just a "response" to the other "isms"?
 
In the coming libertarian paradise will people be able to voluntarily sell themselves into slavery? Will they be able to sell their children into slavery?

=========​

That the answer to both has to be ’yes' seems to be an unavoidable consequence of the libertarian principles of maximum individual freedom, government non-interference in the operation of the free market and parents in effect owning their own children.
:picardfacepalm:

In the event that you have ambitions to be a serious participant in an intellectual discussion and not just another purveyor of "[/conservolibertarian]"-style strawmen, then either
(1) quote a libertarian on this board saying it's a libertarian principle that parents in effect own their children,
Actually we did at one time, I believe it was one of the individuals who was using libertarianism to defend pedophilia and was banned for it's advocacy. Obviously he cared for no libertarian principle other than his "freedom" to enter into a "relationship". But this is the exception and not the rule. As the LP platform clearly states: Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs. This statement shall not be construed to condone child abuse or neglect.

https://www.lp.org/platform#3.5
 
Still waiting for a professed libertarian to say in clear concise DECLARATIVE sentences what libertarianism is, NOT what it is not.

I have read many posts throughout my time on the these board saying what libertarianism is NOT. the scenario goes something like this. a non libertarian will make a statement about what they think libertarianism is or perhaps ask a specific question about something ascribed to libertarianism and the PL (professed libertarians) here say that's wrong and then we all go down the garden path of arguing about the libertarianism IS NOT, and we never say what it IS.

Now Jason has stated what he sees as its basis, so what policies do libertarians draw from this basis and how do they propose to make those policies work?

Still waiting
 
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