Rice family lawyers request DOJ investigation into conduct of prosecutor's office

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What would happen if the cops were found at fault?

Good question. It's one thing to overturn a manslaughter conviction and find someone guilty or murder, such as Oscar Pistorius, but Cops? Ain't gonna ever happen. But I sure wouldn't mind sitting on a jury.

All the powers to be are certainly running scared in this case, really hoping their conspiracy of minutia holds up long enough for people to give up trying for justice. They realize their case is thin and transparent and are hoping it can hold up. It's like when someone gets convicted of a crime because the legal system was just corrupt, inept and stacked against them. They go to prison for a crime they didn't commit and are released decades later. This is the same thing. These cops screwed the pooch and are getting away with it. Were it to go to trial we'd have at least an opportunity for justice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

Actually I'm guessing he was trying to dispose of it because he was afraid of the police.

Right in front of the officer? He was going to try and dispose of a toy. Aren't you two a little old to be drinking illegally?

It's much more commonly done with drugs--they are surprised by the cops and reflexively ditch their drugs even though it's too late. Once in a while they trick an officer into shooting.

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He couldn't have. He didn't HAVE a gun And not even the prosecutor Derec quoted thinks Tamir Rice "went for" his toy. At most, they say they think he was trying to show the killer cop he only had a toy. I've seen zero evidence that Tamir Rice even did that much.

He had something that looked enough like a gun, it doesn't matter if it wasn't real. In the heat of the moment it's going to be treated as real.

As for "went for"--I worded it badly. I think he was trying to toss it away, not trying to point it at the cops. The first step of both actions is to pull it out, though.

 

[Toni]

"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

Actually I'm guessing he was trying to dispose of it because he was afraid of the police.

Right in front of the officer? He was going to try and dispose of a toy. Aren't you two a little old to be drinking illegally?

It's much more commonly done with drugs--they are surprised by the cops and reflexively ditch their drugs even though it's too late. Once in a while they trick an officer into shooting.

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He couldn't have. He didn't HAVE a gun And not even the prosecutor Derec quoted thinks Tamir Rice "went for" his toy. At most, they say they think he was trying to show the killer cop he only had a toy. I've seen zero evidence that Tamir Rice even did that much.

He had something that looked enough like a gun, it doesn't matter if it wasn't real. In the heat of the moment it's going to be treated as real.

As for "went for"--I worded it badly. I think he was trying to toss it away, not trying to point it at the cops. The first step of both actions is to pull it out, though.

I don't think he was trying to toss it away. I don't even think he 'went for it' in his waistband. He had all of 2 seconds. He was a kid playing, not a criminal concerned about being caught.

Imagine, if you might, just hanging in a park. A police car roars up and two police officers begin yelling at you. How long before you would figure they were talking to YOU? How long before you can comprehend what they are asking?

Tamir Rice was shot in 2 seconds. Two seconds. That's not enough time for anyone to respond to an unexpected pair of police officers with firearms pulled.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Imagine, if you might, just hanging in a park. A police car roars up and two police officers begin yelling at you. How long before you would figure they were talking to YOU? How long before you can comprehend what they are asking?

Tamir Rice was shot in 2 seconds. Two seconds. That's not enough time for anyone to respond to an unexpected pair of police officers with firearms pulled.

Those police officers do not wish to face this line of questioning, which is why they're sandbagging behind arguments such as Loren's.

Their position assumes there was an armed and dangerous individual brandishing a firearm and pointing it at people and that they were therefore entitled to Rambo this guy to death. The fact is however there never was this situation and their poor training or poor performance resulted in a murder, no different than what we've seen in plenty of other situations. They're hanging on with their fingernails, hoping everyone is either stupid of gives up.

 

[RavenSky]

Did a little reading today... apparently there is NO law that these toys are required to have orange tips except when someone is trying to sell or ship them. Tamir was doing neither. So all this misdirection and blaming Tamir over the missing orange tip is worthless.

Also, according to eye witness reports, Tamir had his hands in his pockets when police roared up. While there is a huge question of whether the cops actually gave any orders whatsoever (witnesses say they heard nothing), the cops claim they ordered Tamir to put his hands in the air. IF the cops really gave that order, and IF Tamir heard and processed that order, pulling his hands from his pockets to raise them in the air sounds a lot more likely than all this nonsense about "going for the gun"... even to throw it away or show it to the police.

 

[Derec]

Did a little reading today... apparently there is NO law that these toys are required to have orange tips except when someone is trying to sell or ship them. Tamir was doing neither. So all this misdirection and blaming Tamir over the missing orange tip is worthless.

There is however a law prohibiting threatening people with a weapon (menacing).
But let's stipulate that Tamir broke no laws as you and Jimmy claim. He would still have done something incredibly stupid, and which cost him his life.

Also, according to eye witness reports, Tamir had his hands in his pockets when police roared up. While there is a huge question of whether the cops actually gave any orders whatsoever (witnesses say they heard nothing), the cops claim they ordered Tamir to put his hands in the air. IF the cops really gave that order, and IF Tamir heard and processed that order, pulling his hands from his pockets to raise them in the air sounds a lot more likely than all this nonsense about "going for the gun"... even to throw it away or show it to the police.

What witnesses would those be? How far from the action were they?

 

[RavenSky]

There is however a law prohibiting threatening people with a weapon (menacing).

more fiction pulled from your ass. Tamir Rice was not threatening anyone with his toy.

But let's stipulate that Tamir broke no laws as you and Jimmy claim. He would still have done something incredibly stupid, and which cost him his life.

wrong. It was the cops who did something incredibly stupid and killed Tamir Rice. But I am not at all surprised that you are STILL blaming a twelve-year old child instead of the adult cops who killed him.

 

[Derec]

more fiction pulled from your ass. Tamir Rice was not threatening anyone with his toy.

911 caller said he was pointing it at people. And it is a pellet gun, not a toy. It was, moreover, made to resemble a firearm even more by removing the orange tip.
The fact is, had Tamir Rice or anybody else used that "toy" to rob somebody they would rightly be charged with armed robbery.

wrong. It was the cops who did something incredibly stupid and killed Tamir Rice. But I am not at all surprised that you are STILL blaming a twelve-year old child instead of the adult cops who killed him.

I never disputed that cops made mistakes too. It is you who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge Tamir did anything wrong. Shades of Trayvon "he did nothing wrong, no, not a thing" Martin.

 

[RavenSky]

911 caller said he was pointing it at people.

you mean the same man who ALSO said Tamir Rice was probably a juvenile with a toy?

wrong. It was the cops who did something incredibly stupid and killed Tamir Rice. But I am not at all surprised that you are STILL blaming a twelve-year old child instead of the adult cops who killed him.

I never disputed that cops made mistakes too.

Not "too" - they are the ones responsible for killing an innocent 12-year old boy. They are whichever dispatcher didn't bother to pass along complete information.

It is you who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge Tamir did anything wrong. Shades of Trayvon "he did nothing wrong, no, not a thing" Martin.

I refuse to say either boy did anything wrong because neither boy did anything wrong.

 

[Arctish]

There is however a law prohibiting threatening people with a weapon (menacing).
But let's stipulate that Tamir broke no laws as you and Jimmy claim. He would still have done something incredibly stupid, and which cost him his life.

Playing outside while big and black?

 

[Toni]

There is however a law prohibiting threatening people with a weapon (menacing).
But let's stipulate that Tamir broke no laws as you and Jimmy claim. He would still have done something incredibly stupid, and which cost him his life.

Playing outside while big and black?

Please. We know only one of those things is considered to be unforgivably dangerous and scary. Or unforgivable.

 

[Derec]

Playing outside while big and black?

Very emotionally manipulative photo.
- that girl looks nothing like 12 - more like 8 or so. Tamir was a 12 year old who looked significantly older due to his height (5'7") and weight (195 lbs). It would be more apt if they used this photo to ask the question, as they have the same height and build.

- the term "toy gun" is a misnomer. It is a pellet gun which can cause injury itself. Furthermore, it is designed to resemble a real firearm, 1911 Colt, closely and that resemblance was enhanced when the orange tip was removed.

 

[Derec]

you mean the same man who ALSO said Tamir Rice was probably a juvenile with a toy?

The caller was all over the place on that. First he said "probably fake" (he did not use the word "toy") but than later said "I don't know if it is real or not". He also said that Tamir scared him.
And juvenile does not necessarily mean a tween. Face it, Tamir did not look like a 12 year old.

Not "too" - they are the ones responsible for killing an innocent 12-year old boy. They are whichever dispatcher didn't bother to pass along complete information.

The dispatcher did not relay the speculation by the caller because the caller himself was so equivocal and all over the place.

I refuse to say either boy did anything wrong because neither boy did anything wrong.

But both of them did.

By the way, his mother is a piece of work.

 

[Toni]

The caller was all over the place on that. First he said "probably fake" (he did not use the word "toy") but than later said "I don't know if it is real or not". He also said that Tamir scared him.
And juvenile does not necessarily mean a tween. Face it, Tamir did not look like a 12 year old.

Not "too" - they are the ones responsible for killing an innocent 12-year old boy. They are whichever dispatcher didn't bother to pass along complete information.

The dispatcher did not relay the speculation by the caller because the caller himself was so equivocal and all over the place.

I refuse to say either boy did anything wrong because neither boy did anything wrong.

But both of them did.

By the way, his mother is a piece of work.

What, exactly, did either child do wrong?

What was Tamir Rice doing when the police pulled up?

How is it Tamir's responsibility or fault if he was as tall as a short adult male? \

Do you honestly believe that height and/or weight confers adulthood? Or the ability to think or behave as an adult? Or to know and understand that others perceive you as an adult? It doesn't. FFS, all of my children surpassed my height by their 11th birthday. One child that one of my kids went to school with was quite tall: half a head taller than me and most of her teachers at age 8 or 9. Did not make them older, smarter, more mature. They were still 11 and acted 11.

And please admit it: what was scary about Tamir is the color of his skin.

 

[Derec]

What, exactly, did either child do wrong?

Tamir:
- he was waving a very realistic gun which he was warned about.
- he went for his gun when the police pulled up

Trayvon:
- he had a history of doing/selling drugs and possibly breaking in, stealing jewelry
- he attacked George Z. and was giving him a "whoop ass" when he was shot

By the way, I can see why you would call Tamir a "child". But a 17 year old like Trayvon? Did you call Ethan Couch a "child" too?

How is it Tamir's responsibility or fault if he was as tall as a short adult male?

No, but he should have been cognizant of his size.
Also, he and his family are certainly responsible for letting him get to weight of 195 lbs at 12 years old. But then again, his mother is hardly the most responsible adult out there.

Do you honestly believe that height and/or weight confers adulthood? Or the ability to think or behave as an adult?

Certainly not.

Or to know and understand that others perceive you as an adult?

There should be some recognition of this even at 12 years old. He would have noticed he is taller and bigger than his classmates.

And please admit it: what was scary about Tamir is the color of his skin.

If that was the case (skin color the thing making his look scary) than the photo posted above would have used a white kid who was 5'7" and 195 lbs rather than a small girl of maybe 4' and 60 lbs dripping wet.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If what happened is okay and the police officers are legally without fault, then it is okay for this same thing to happen a hundred more times over the next hundred days.

 

[RavenSky]

Playing outside while big and black?

Very emotionally manipulative photo.
- that girl looks nothing like 12 - more like 8 or so. Tamir was a 12 year old who looked significantly older due to his height (5'7") and weight (195 lbs).

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER IF TAMIR RICE LOOKED 8-YEARS OLD OR 38-YEARS OLD!!!! HE DID NOT HAVE A GUN, HE DID NOT PULL A GUN, HE WAS NOT GIVEN ANY TIME TO COMPLY WITH ANY POLICE ORDERS!!! THE TWO COPS (AND 911/DISPATCH) WERE 100% WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. NOT TAMIR RICE - NO MATTER WHAT AGE YOU THINK HE LOOKED!

It would be more apt if they used this photo to ask the question, as they have the same height and build.
View attachment 5218

Frankly, as much as I loathe George Zimmerman, if the facts exactly matched that of Tamir Rice's killing, I would equally object if two cops roared up across the lawn and opened fire on GZ without assessing the situation to determine if there was any actual threat.

the term "toy gun" is a misnomer. It is a pellet gun which can cause injury itself. Furthermore, it is designed to resemble a real firearm, 1911 Colt, closely and that resemblance was enhanced when the orange tip was removed.

blah blah blah about the toy is nothing but a misdirection on your part, and a further attempt to blame the dead child victim.

 

[RavenSky]

The caller was all over the place on that. First he said "probably fake" (he did not use the word "toy") but than later said "I don't know if it is real or not". He also said that Tamir scared him.

ALL of which should have been relayed to the police officers. Dispatch should not pick and choose what to tell the cops, and I hold that person just as responsible for Tamir's death as I do the two cops.

I wonder how the 911-caller feels about his call, now (though I do not hold him responsible)

And juvenile does not necessarily mean a tween. Face it, Tamir did not look like a 12 year old.

Who the fuck cares how old you think he looked

Not "too" - they are the ones responsible for killing an innocent 12-year old boy. They are whichever dispatcher didn't bother to pass along complete information.

The dispatcher did not relay the speculation by the caller because the caller himself was so equivocal and all over the place.

See above

I refuse to say either boy did anything wrong because neither boy did anything wrong.

But both of them did.

you are wrong

By the way, his mother is a piece of work.

Actually, you are Derec.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Very emotionally manipulative photo.
- that girl looks nothing like 12 - more like 8 or so. Tamir was a 12 year old who looked significantly older due to his height (5'7") and weight (195 lbs).

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER IF TAMIR RICE LOOKED 8-YEARS OLD OR 38-YEARS OLD!!!! HE DID NOT HAVE A GUN, HE DID NOT PULL A GUN, HE WAS NOT GIVEN ANY TIME TO COMPLY WITH ANY POLICE ORDERS!!! THE TWO COPS (AND 911/DISPATCH) WERE 100% WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. NOT TAMIR RICE - NO MATTER WHAT AGE YOU THINK HE LOOKED!

You say he did not have a gun. The reality is that he had a realistic replica--and realistic replicas are treated as real until there is time to determine it's not real.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

ALL of which should have been relayed to the police officers. Dispatch should not pick and choose what to tell the cops, and I hold that person just as responsible for Tamir's death as I do the two cops.

Dispatch distills it down to facts, not speculation.