Rice family lawyers request DOJ investigation into conduct of prosecutor's office

[Toni]

ALL of which should have been relayed to the police officers. Dispatch should not pick and choose what to tell the cops, and I hold that person just as responsible for Tamir's death as I do the two cops.

Dispatch distills it down to facts, not speculation.

Not in this case, they didn't.

 

[laughing dog]

You say he did not have a gun. The reality is that he had a realistic replica--and realistic replicas are treated as real until there is time to determine it's not real.

Which did not occur in the Rice case: the time to determine is before the police shoot, not afterwords.

 

[Toni]

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER IF TAMIR RICE LOOKED 8-YEARS OLD OR 38-YEARS OLD!!!! HE DID NOT HAVE A GUN, HE DID NOT PULL A GUN, HE WAS NOT GIVEN ANY TIME TO COMPLY WITH ANY POLICE ORDERS!!! THE TWO COPS (AND 911/DISPATCH) WERE 100% WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. NOT TAMIR RICE - NO MATTER WHAT AGE YOU THINK HE LOOKED!

You say he did not have a gun. The reality is that he had a realistic replica--and realistic replicas are treated as real until there is time to determine it's not real.

Which would take how long do you think? Longer than 2 seconds? Because that's how long before the police shot Tamir Rice dead. Oh, and the toy wasn't even in sight.

The actions of the police officers---ALL of them--was absolutely indefensible.

 

[RavenSky]

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER IF TAMIR RICE LOOKED 8-YEARS OLD OR 38-YEARS OLD!!!! HE DID NOT HAVE A GUN, HE DID NOT PULL A GUN, HE WAS NOT GIVEN ANY TIME TO COMPLY WITH ANY POLICE ORDERS!!! THE TWO COPS (AND 911/DISPATCH) WERE 100% WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. NOT TAMIR RICE - NO MATTER WHAT AGE YOU THINK HE LOOKED!

You say he did not have a gun. The reality is that he had a realistic replica--and realistic replicas are treated as real until there is time to determine it's not real.

There was plenty of time to "determine it wasn't real" except the two cops didn't bother. That was the problem!!! They shot and killed a twelve-year-old innocent boy instead of TAKING the fucking time. What part of this fact do you two not get?

 

[RavenSky]

ALL of which should have been relayed to the police officers. Dispatch should not pick and choose what to tell the cops, and I hold that person just as responsible for Tamir's death as I do the two cops.

Dispatch distills it down to facts, not speculation.

The FACTS were that the caller said he thought the person was a juvenile and the "gun" was a "fake" - those are very important key details the cops should have known.

 

[tupac chopra]

Here is the trouble with Tamir Rice. The Officer likely acted appropriately when firing (they were told a possibly armed person and that person then made a motion), .

How can it possibly be appropriate to rush in and shoot as fast as you can, before you have assessed the situation.

How can this possibly be the appropriate action for a police officer?

If you want someone dead then you just ring from a private number telling the dispatcher the person you don't like has a gun.
The police then rush over there come to a screeching halt and shoot. You have had someone executed. That is idiotic!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here is the trouble with Tamir Rice. The Officer likely acted appropriately when firing (they were told a possibly armed person and that person then made a motion), .

How can it possibly be appropriate to rush in and shoot as fast as you can, before you have assessed the situation.

How can this possibly be the appropriate action for a police officer?

Appropriate and illegal are two entirely different things.

If you want someone dead then you just ring from a private number telling the dispatcher the person you don't like has a gun.
The police then rush over there come to a screeching halt and shoot. You have had someone executed. That is idiotic!

It is, and we need to make significant changes for the governing of the Police.

- - - Updated - - -

You say he did not have a gun. The reality is that he had a realistic replica--and realistic replicas are treated as real until there is time to determine it's not real.

There was plenty of time to "determine it wasn't real" except the two cops didn't bother.

The two officers didn't even confirm he had anything to start with, isn't that correct? Forget about confirming it was a "real" whatever.

 

[Arctish]

There is however a law prohibiting threatening people with a weapon (menacing).
But let's stipulate that Tamir broke no laws as you and Jimmy claim. He would still have done something incredibly stupid, and which cost him his life.

Playing outside while big and black?

Playing outside while big and black?

Very emotionally manipulative photo.
- that girl looks nothing like 12 - more like 8 or so. Tamir was a 12 year old who looked significantly older due to his height (5'7") and weight (195 lbs). It would be more apt if they used this photo to ask the question, as they have the same height and build.
View attachment 5218
- the term "toy gun" is a misnomer. It is a pellet gun which can cause injury itself. Furthermore, it is designed to resemble a real firearm, 1911 Colt, closely and that resemblance was enhanced when the orange tip was removed.

The photo was posted to point out what you are obviously doing but apparently don't realize you're doing.

You are concluding it was reasonable for the police to kill Rice because he was big and black, and that Rice is therefore partly to blame for his death because at 12 years of age he should have known the cops would shoot to kill if someone reported his play-acting with an airsoft.***

If the person the cops saw standing there with an airsoft gun in his/her waistband was the white kid, do you think Loehmann would have shot him/her immediately upon exiting the vehicle? Do you think he should have?

If the person the cops saw standing there was George Zimmerman, with his hands in pockets and a 9mm in a holster at his side, do you think Loehmann would have shot him immediately upon exiting the vehicle? Do you think he should have? Suppose this happened immediately after Zimmerman killed Martin. Are you okay with the cops roaring up to the perp and gunning him down without any of that "due process" you keep harping about in the campus rape threads?


*** But he's not supposed to think that's racist or protest the injustice or become involved with the Black Lives Matter movement; he's just supposed to know cops are more likely to shoot him than a white kid, and accept his lot in life.

 

[Arctish]

ALL of which should have been relayed to the police officers. Dispatch should not pick and choose what to tell the cops, and I hold that person just as responsible for Tamir's death as I do the two cops.

Dispatch distills it down to facts, not speculation.

Dispatch is supposed to pass on the information the caller provides.

A dispatcher who thinks he or she is in a position to know the facts from where they sit at their desk, and selectively passes on information based on his or her opinion, is a dangerous idiot.

 

[Derec]

The photo was posted to point out what you are obviously doing but apparently don't realize you're doing.

I doubt it.

You are concluding it was reasonable for the police to kill Rice because he was big and black, and that Rice is therefore partly to blame for his death because at 12 years of age he should have known the cops would shoot to kill if someone reported his play-acting with an airsoft.***

I think both the police and the kid share part of the blame.

If the person the cops saw standing there with an airsoft gun in his/her waistband was the white kid, do you think Loehmann would have shot him/her immediately upon exiting the vehicle?

I don't know if he would have. I can't read minds. If he had shot a white kid under similar circumstances I doubt very much that he'd been charged either. Police have shot unarmed white kids before without getting charged you know, for example a kid from Ellijay, GA answering his own door with a wii controller in his hands.

Do you think he should have?

I don't think he necessarily should have shot Tamir either. It is obviously a tragedy that this 12 year old boy is dead. The question is - has a crime, even a murder, been committed?
The shooter was put in a precarious situation by the driver pulling up very close and by Tamir making a move toward the gun. The shooter had to decide very quickly and under such circumstances mistakes can and do happen - that doesn't necessarily mean the shooter committed a crime.

My problem with the photo is that they laid in on way too thick. They chose a very small girl that could never have been confused with even a teenager, much less adult. That is not really making the point that it was all about race. And what possible valid point does the photo make then?

If the person the cops saw standing there was George Zimmerman, with his hands in pockets and a 9mm in a holster at his side, do you think Loehmann would have shot him immediately upon exiting the vehicle?

Does the cop recognize this public enemy #1?

Do you think he should have? Suppose this happened immediately after Zimmerman killed Martin. Are you okay with the cops roaring up to the perp and gunning him down without any of that "due process" you keep harping about in the campus rape threads?

I would expect George Zimmerman to have more sense than to go for his waistband when he saw the police.

*** But he's not supposed to think that's racist or protest the injustice or become involved with the Black Lives Matter movement; he's just supposed to know cops are more likely to shoot him than a white kid, and accept his lot in life.

It has not been demonstrated that police are more likely too shoot somebody black, all other things being the same.
What can be demonstrated is merely that the rate of police shootings is higher for black people, but that is not controlling for all variables. For example, crime rate among blacks is also higher, which would account for the discrepancy without race being the cause for it.

 

[Derec]

Appropriate and illegal are two entirely different things.

That is a very good distinction. The cops obviously made a mistake. So did Tamir by the way.
But does the mistake the cops made amount to murder? Or some other crime? The prosecutor, and the grand jury, obviously thought not.

 

[Derec]

The FACTS were that the caller said he thought the person was a juvenile and the "gun" was a "fake" - those are very important key details the cops should have known.

No, he was very equivocal about the realness of the gun and "juveniles" often use real guns to commit adult crimes.
Teen carjacking suspect shot by IMPD had troubled past
No charges in fatal St. Paul shooting of alleged teen robber in park
Juvenile does not mean harmless. A gun about which a civilian caller says "I don't know if it's real or not" is not to be treated as not real by the responding officers.

 

[Arctish]

The photo was posted to point out what you are obviously doing but apparently don't realize you're doing.

I doubt it.

You doubt I posted that picture to point out what you are obviously doing or you doubt I think you don't realize you're doing it?

If it's the first, a quick review of the last few pages should clear things up. If it's the second, you're right to doubt it. I don't actually believe you're unaware of what you're doing. I was just being polite.

You are concluding it was reasonable for the police to kill Rice because he was big and black, and that Rice is therefore partly to blame for his death because at 12 years of age he should have known the cops would shoot to kill if someone reported his play-acting with an airsoft.***

I think both the police and the kid share part of the blame.

Yes. Exactly so.

You place part of the blame on the 12 year old. You think he should have realized the police will shoot him if he plays outside with an airsoft gun because he was big and black.

I place all of the blame on the cop who shot him because

1) he did not even try to assess the situation before resorting to lethal force
2) lethal force was utterly unnecessary
3) he, as a trained professional and an adult, is culpable in the way an untrained child can never be
4) he lied his ass off in the first version of events he offered, thereby indicating even he thinks he f**ked up big time.

It doesn't matter how big or how black a kid is. What matters is what he's doing when the cops encounter him. If all he's doing is standing there, then there is NO reason for the cops to respond with lethal force.

If the person the cops saw standing there with an airsoft gun in his/her waistband was the white kid, do you think Loehmann would have shot him/her immediately upon exiting the vehicle?

I don't know if he would have. I can't read minds. If he had shot a white kid under similar circumstances I doubt very much that he'd been charged either. Police have shot unarmed white kids before without getting charged you know, for example a kid from Ellijay, GA answering his own door with a wii controller in his hands.

Do you think he should have?

I don't think he necessarily should have shot Tamir either.

So, they might have but they shouldn't have? Okay. But what do you mean you "don't think he necessarily should have" shot Tamir. If you think Loehmann shouldn't have shot Tamir, just say it.

It is obviously a tragedy that this 12 year old boy is dead. The question is - has a crime, even a murder, been committed?
The shooter was put in a precarious situation by the driver pulling up very close and by Tamir making a move toward the gun. The shooter had to decide very quickly and under such circumstances mistakes can and do happen - that doesn't necessarily mean the shooter committed a crime.

Loehmann didn't have to exit the car. He didn't have to come out from behind the car door. He didn't have to step out into the open, draw his weapon, and fire. Loehmann was negligent, he was reckless, and he didn't even know if Tamir was the guy they were called about.

Also, it's unclear what impulse was behind the slight motion of Rice's hand after Loehmann was out of the car pointing a gun at him (a jolt of adrenaline from startlement or fear, trying to comply with the cop's orders to put the gun down or show his hands?) , but your insistence that Loehmann was the one in mortal fear would be laughable if it weren't for the racist belief that young black males are to be feared that is all too often on display in this country. Maybe Loeehmann really was afraid of a 12 year old just standing there in a park. It's pathetic, but it would explain a lot.

Regardless, police are not allowed to execute a civilian just because they think he might be the guy who might have been doing something illegal before they arrived.

My problem with the photo is that they laid in on way too thick. They chose a very small girl that could never have been confused with even a teenager, much less adult. That is not really making the point that it was all about race. And what possible valid point does the photo make then?

The same point you keep making: that Tamir Rice was shot because he was big and black, not because a 12 year old in possession of an airsoft gun is a valid target for immediate, lethal force.

If the person the cops saw standing there was George Zimmerman, with his hands in pockets and a 9mm in a holster at his side, do you think Loehmann would have shot him immediately upon exiting the vehicle?

Does the cop recognize this public enemy #1?

Do you think he should have? Suppose this happened immediately after Zimmerman killed Martin. Are you okay with the cops roaring up to the perp and gunning him down without any of that "due process" you keep harping about in the campus rape threads?

I would expect George Zimmerman to have more sense than to go for his waistband when he saw the police.

Nice dodge.

Let's say Zimmerman was doing exactly what Rice was doing when the cops saw him. Let's say that only one person called 911 the night Zimmerman killed Martin, not multiple people reporting a fight and sounds of screaming in the background. Let's say the caller wasn't sure there was a crime being committed but thought he should report a guy with a maybe-gun prowling the neighborhood and scaring people. So the cops come roaring up to Zimmerman standing there with his Kel-Tec 9mm tucked into his belt holster, one jumps out of the car and in less than 2 seconds shoots him in the gut. Zimmerman has had almost no time to realize he was in peril before he's shot, and any movement of his hands could simply have been an involuntary startled twitch when a cop suddenly jumped out of the car right in front of him.

Is that an appropriate use of lethal force, in your view?

Does the fact that Zimmerman was found standing next to the body of the teenager he'd just killed make it more justifiable that the cops shoot him? It should, but I suspect it doesn't. Zimmerman isn't black, which you think was Tamir Rice's fatal mistake.

*** But he's not supposed to think that's racist or protest the injustice or become involved with the Black Lives Matter movement; he's just supposed to know cops are more likely to shoot him than a white kid, and accept his lot in life.

It has not been demonstrated that police are more likely too shoot somebody black, all other things being the same.
What can be demonstrated is merely that the rate of police shootings is higher for black people, but that is not controlling for all variables. For example, crime rate among blacks is also higher, which would account for the discrepancy without race being the cause for it.

You think a 12 year old should understand that his being big and black makes him a legitimate target for lethal police action when he's just standing in a park with a pellet gun in his waistband. You demand more situational awareness and thoughtfulness from a black child that you do of grown white men, and way more than you expect from a cop.

 

[Toni]

Appropriate and illegal are two entirely different things.

That is a very good distinction. The cops obviously made a mistake. So did Tamir by the way.
But does the mistake the cops made amount to murder? Or some other crime? The prosecutor, and the grand jury, obviously thought not.

Really?

What was his mistake? Being taller than you were at his age? Being a large kid? Not having the sense to be born white?

 

[RavenSky]

Do you think he should have? Suppose this happened immediately after Zimmerman killed Martin. Are you okay with the cops roaring up to the perp and gunning him down without any of that "due process" you keep harping about in the campus rape threads?

I would expect George Zimmerman to have more sense than to go for his waistband when he saw the police.

Not to derail this thread with more endless discussion about George Zimmerman, but he DID "go for his waistband when he saw the police" yet is somehow still alive.

According to Zimmerman, he lifted his shirt to show police that he was armed (with a REAL gun) and allowed police to remove the gun and holster. He was not shot by police for the action of lifting his shirt.

 

[RavenSky]

The FACTS were that the caller said he thought the person was a juvenile and the "gun" was a "fake" - those are very important key details the cops should have known.

A gun about which a civilian caller says "I don't know if it's real or not" is not to be treated as not real by the responding officers.

WHOOSH!!! <---- the sound of the point flying over Derec's head. Allow me to repeat it so maybe he gets it this time:

"those are very important key details the cops should have known"

Maybe if the cops had been told that the caller thought the person might be a "juvenile" and the "gun" might be a "fake", they would not have roared up across the park lawn and killed Tamir Rice in under 2 seconds. Maybe, just maybe, they would have approached the situation differently.

I still fault them 100% for what they did to Tamir Rice, but I also fault the 911 operator or dispatcher for creating the unnecessary alarm in the cops.

 

[laughing dog]

Appropriate and illegal are two entirely different things.

That is a very good distinction. The cops obviously made a mistake. So did Tamir by the way.
But does the mistake the cops made amount to murder? Or some other crime? The prosecutor, and the grand jury, obviously thought not.

The prosecutor has a clear conflict of interest because he has to work with the police. From what I have read, it seems to me that the prosecutor did not have his heart in the matter. Since we don't know how the prosecutor presented the facts to the grand jury, we don't know how they reached their conclusion. These two police officers got very lucky - luckier than Tamir Rice.

 

[Derec]

Maybe if the cops had been told that the caller thought the person might be a "juvenile" and the "gun" might be a "fake", they would not have roared up across the park lawn and killed Tamir Rice in under 2 seconds. Maybe, just maybe, they would have approached the situation differently.

I still fault them 100% for what they did to Tamir Rice, but I also fault the 911 operator or dispatcher for creating the unnecessary alarm in the cops.

But you do not fault Tamir Rice even 1%?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Appropriate and illegal are two entirely different things.

That is a very good distinction. The cops obviously made a mistake. So did Tamir by the way.
But does the mistake the cops made amount to murder? Or some other crime? The prosecutor, and the grand jury, obviously thought not.

And to be clear, you've been talking out of both sides of your mouth about Officer accountability in all of this.

 

[Derec]

And to be clear, you've been talking out of both sides of your mouth about Officer accountability in all of this.

It's called nuance. Quite different than what say RavenSky is doing ("Tamir Rice did nothing wrong whatsoever")