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"The Only Thing That Stops A Bad Guy With A Gun..."

A few years back, I had to give a lecture on automobile safety. Airbags had just been made standard equipment and it was a hot topic. I was doing some research to get my dates correct and I realized something which should have been obvious. From the early days of film and following into the television era, the scene of a car crashing over a cliff and bursting into flames was a very common cliche. The shot of the burning car was always followed by a cut to the hero, who was lying in the grass, after happily leaping from the car, before it went over the edge. This was the origin of "being thrown free" of an accident. It's just about as stupid an idea ever conceived, but that's the power of visual media.

How does a good guy with a gun in Wal-mart get shot in the back? Simple. He watched too much TV.

He failed to realize a fundamental fact about guns, which is, a gun is useless as a defensive weapon.

Our Wal-mart GGWG heard the BGWG fire a shot, so he responds and walks right past a BWWG to confront the BGWG. This was a serious mistake, because she shot him in the back. If he had more time, he might of had a better plan. We can analyze his tactics in the safety of our keyboard. His obvious mistake was letting the bad guy see him. Up to that point, the only thing BGWG had done was discharge a firearm in a public place, probably not even a felony. GGWG is lacking critical information, and in the meantime, gets shot in the back.

While you are correct as to how he died I disagree with the rest of it.

1) The BGWG's actions constitute a reasonable threat to everyone around. I would support him if he had simply shot the BGWG at that point.

2) Too much TV has nothing to do with failing to realize there are two bad guys. While confronting the BGWG was a bad course of action I don't see how it's based on TV.

- - - Updated - - -

A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.

Ya, it's lucky he was there. Otherwise the cops wouldn't have been able to realize that they were in the Walmart with the more obscure clue of everyone running out while screaming that there were two people matching the description of the cop killers they were looking for firing off guns there.

Exactly what delay is it that you feel he caused?

He messed up whatever their plans were. They certainly didn't come there just to commit suicide.
 
He messed up whatever their plans were. They certainly didn't come there just to commit suicide.

They were on the run from the police and ducked into the Walmart to hole up. Exactly what kind of nefarious plan do you think they had? They seemed to have zero plan and were pretty much just trying to hide from the cops who were coming over to shoot them for killing their friends.

There was no fucking planning going on. There was panicking and running about like headless chickens going on.
 
He messed up whatever their plans were. They certainly didn't come there just to commit suicide.

They were on the run from the police and ducked into the Walmart to hole up. Exactly what kind of nefarious plan do you think they had? They seemed to have zero plan and were pretty much just trying to hide from the cops who were coming over to shoot them for killing their friends.

There was no fucking planning going on. There was panicking and running about like headless chickens going on.
Further, according to the reports I've heard on the news, they shot into the air and told everyone in the store to get out. It sounds to me like they intended to barricade themselves in for as long as possible, but apparently made it clear they didn't intend to be arrested or killed by the police.

From the OP article:
...Jerad Miller entered a nearby Wal-Mart, at Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue, fired a round in the air and ordered everyone to leave...

The last publicly viewable status update was made to the profile on June 7, the day before the shootings. It reads:

"The dawn of a new day. May all of our coming sacrifices be worth it."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/09/las-vegas-shooting-suspects_n_5472883.html
 
Do they say "The only thing that stops a bad guy..." or "The only thing which can stop a bad guy..."? Because if it is the latter (or something like it), they are not claiming that a good guy with a gun will definitely stop a bad guy with a gun, just that it is your only chance to stop the bad guy. As an analogy, if I were to say that the only team who can stop Brazil from winning the World Cup is Spain, then I am not saying that Spain will beat Brazil. I'm not even saying that Spain are favourites to beat Brazil. I'm just saying that they have a chance, and no other team does. And if Brazil were to beat Spain, that doesn't prove I was wrong in my statement.

None of this is relevant to the actual truth of the statement, of course.

And for the record, he says: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." And he is the one that emphasizes the word "only" when he says it. (They just played the clip again on All In With Chris Hayes" so I'm not going by memory :) )
 
Our Wal-mart GGWG heard the BGWG fire a shot, so he responds and walks right past a BWWG to confront the BGWG. This was a serious mistake, because she shot him in the back. If he had more time, he might of had a better plan. We can analyze his tactics in the safety of our keyboard. His obvious mistake was letting the bad guy see him. Up to that point, the only thing BGWG had done was discharge a firearm in a public place, probably not even a felony. GGWG is lacking critical information, and in the meantime, gets shot in the back.

While you are correct as to how he died I disagree with the rest of it.

1) The BGWG's actions constitute a reasonable threat to everyone around. I would support him if he had simply shot the BGWG at that point.

2) Too much TV has nothing to do with failing to realize there are two bad guys. While confronting the BGWG was a bad course of action I don't see how it's based on TV.

- - - Updated - - -

A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.

Ya, it's lucky he was there. Otherwise the cops wouldn't have been able to realize that they were in the Walmart with the more obscure clue of everyone running out while screaming that there were two people matching the description of the cop killers they were looking for firing off guns there.

Exactly what delay is it that you feel he caused?

He messed up whatever their plans were. They certainly didn't come there just to commit suicide.

Whether he messed up their plans or not, we'll never know, but they certainly came there to commit suicide, eventually. Any other scenario would have them holding off the police until the citizens of Las Vegas rose up in a mob and stormed the Wal-mart to proclaim them rulers of the New Republic.


Jeremy Tanner lived his Die Hard fantasy for a few seconds, but he was not Danny McClain and his effort accomplished nothing. Being a good guy with a gun did not help in this particular instance. We'll call it a sacrifice to the God of good intentions.
 
He didn't mess up anything except the floor.


Harsh, but true.


I actually had a long discussion with my former carpool buddy about this on the way to work one day. He had a CCW permit, and often kept his sidearm in his truck.

We were talking about it because a couple nights before a bunch of our co-workers had gone to a birthday party at a bar. There was some sort of altercation on the patio, and the next thing you know someone was shooting. Everyone we knew was inside the bar and weren't hurt, but one guy who was on the patio wound up bleeding out leaned up against a car that belonged to a friend of mine. He wasn't even involved in the fight. He just got hit by a random bullet in the chest. Poor guy.

So I asked my friend if he could have done anything. What was he trained and/or advised to do in his classes? He said had he been there with his gun, the first thing he'd do is "find a place to hide and keep my fucking head down until the cops arrive."

The thing is, if there's a BGWG on the scene, and you "stand your ground" with your own weapon, you instantly become more than just a passing bystander.

You become a target. A threat to the BGWG. If he's got his wits about him, you'll be the next thing he shoots at.

The guy that died at the bar where my co-workers were celebrating? Just a person in the wrong place at the wrong time. This Wilcox fellow? He's dead because he bought into the bullshit notion that having a license to carry a concealed weapon makes you responsible for "taking out the bad guy" should you find yourself amidst a crime in progress. Having a concealed weapon is for self defense. If someone tries to carjack you and you've got a pistol under the seat, then by all means defend yourself. But if you're carrying and a shooting - mass or otherwise - starts to unfold around you then do the smart thing and find some cover and keep your fucking head down. Your license to carry is not a license to fight crime.
 
He didn't mess up anything except the floor.


Harsh, but true.


I actually had a long discussion with my former carpool buddy about this on the way to work one day. He had a CCW permit, and often kept his sidearm in his truck.

We were talking about it because a couple nights before a bunch of our co-workers had gone to a birthday party at a bar. There was some sort of altercation on the patio, and the next thing you know someone was shooting. Everyone we knew was inside the bar and weren't hurt, but one guy who was on the patio wound up bleeding out leaned up against a car that belonged to a friend of mine. He wasn't even involved in the fight. He just got hit by a random bullet in the chest. Poor guy.

So I asked my friend if he could have done anything. What was he trained and/or advised to do in his classes? He said had he been there with his gun, the first thing he'd do is "find a place to hide and keep my fucking head down until the cops arrive."

The thing is, if there's a BGWG on the scene, and you "stand your ground" with your own weapon, you instantly become more than just a passing bystander.

You become a target. A threat to the BGWG. If he's got his wits about him, you'll be the next thing he shoots at.

The guy that died at the bar where my co-workers were celebrating? Just a person in the wrong place at the wrong time. This Wilcox fellow? He's dead because he bought into the bullshit notion that having a license to carry a concealed weapon makes you responsible for "taking out the bad guy" should you find yourself amidst a crime in progress. Having a concealed weapon is for self defense. If someone tries to carjack you and you've got a pistol under the seat, then by all means defend yourself. But if you're carrying and a shooting - mass or otherwise - starts to unfold around you then do the smart thing and find some cover and keep your fucking head down. Your license to carry is not a license to fight crime.

This is the harsh reality of a gun. A gun only intimidates a person who doesn't have a gun. If a person with a gun is confronted with another gun, the only smart thing to do is aim and shoot. There is no time to contemplate the situation, because it is not a defensive weapon. It will not prevent anyone from shooting you, as Jeremy Tanner discovered.
 
If you've been paying even passing attention to the rhetoric coming from the NRA over the past couple years, you can finish this sentence...

"Is a good guy with a gun."

Well a little incident at a Cici's Pizza and a Wal Mart in Las Vegas may have put the lie to that talking point.

The first two victims of the "bad guys" were not innocent children, or hapless civilians, but armed, trained police officers. The very "good guys with guns" we count upon to patrol our cities.

The next victim? An intrepid armed citizen named Joseph Robert Wilcox...just the sort of fellow that Wayne LaPierre tells us we need to depend upon. What happened?

After executing two Las Vegas police officers at a CiCi’s Pizza, Jerad Miller entered a nearby Wal-Mart, at Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue, fired a round in the air and ordered everyone to leave, setting off a panic.

It was at that point, instead of running, Wilcox approached Jerad Miller from behind.

Law enforcement sources said Wilcox, who had a concealed weapons permit and carried a handgun, was ready to “end it” when Amanda Miller, who was behind Wilcox, shot and killed him.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/family-mourns-man-killed-while-trying-stop-shooting-spree

So the "good guys" outnumbered the "bad guys." Guns were all around. There was even an armed American at the ready.

The result? The good guys didn't stop the bad guys.


Am I missing something here?

Obviously, there weren't enough guns. If only there had been more guns in that restaurant, things would have turned out different. Not that you would care, gun-grabber.

This is it, people! This is the excuse that the Islamo-socialist dictator is going to use to confiscate all of our guns! To arms, brothers! Arm yourselves and shoot as many government employees as you can before it's too late! The tree of liberty must be watered! Freedom isn't free! [/conservolibertarian]
 
You beat me to it with this thread... right down to the subject line LOL

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25728824/coroner-identifies-man-killed-at-wal-mart

According to this article, Wilcox walked right past Amanda Miller towards Jerad Miller. Given the number of women who also attend those pro-gun rallies, why didn't it even occur to him that she might be armed, too?

From everything I've read, it sounds to me like she was the dominate murderous nutcase in this couple.

If only the good guys with guns weren't so sexist!
 
Jeremy Tanner lived his Die Hard fantasy for a few seconds, but he was not Danny McClain and his effort accomplished nothing. Being a good guy with a gun did not help in this particular instance. We'll call it a sacrifice to the God of good intentions.

Actually it's John McClane.
 
He messed up whatever their plans were. They certainly didn't come there just to commit suicide.

They were on the run from the police and ducked into the Walmart to hole up. Exactly what kind of nefarious plan do you think they had? They seemed to have zero plan and were pretty much just trying to hide from the cops who were coming over to shoot them for killing their friends.

There was no fucking planning going on. There was panicking and running about like headless chickens going on.

Yes, but whatever plan they had, their plans were foiled by patriots with guns, therefore more guns are better and make people more free. [/conservolibertarian]
 
The greatest part of the tragedy is that the cops died eating CiCi's pizza. We give people on death row a better option than that!

What is bizarre is these idiots are armed to the teeth and yet only manage to kill three people. The good news is that means these people are stupid. Apparently Alex Jones says this is another false flag operation so the Feds can take their guns. Apparently just like the Federal Government did in legislation passed after Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, etc... :rolleyesa:
 
The greatest part of the tragedy is that the cops died eating CiCi's pizza. We give people on death row a better option than that!
the same thought went through my mind.
What is bizarre is these idiots are armed to the teeth and yet only manage to kill three people. The good news is that means these people are stupid. Apparently Alex Jones says this is another false flag operation so the Feds can take their guns. Apparently just like the Federal Government did in legislation passed after Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, etc... :rolleyesa:

Alex Jones would call a bowel movement a false flag operation.
 
The greatest part of the tragedy is that the cops died eating CiCi's pizza. We give people on death row a better option than that!

What is bizarre is these idiots are armed to the teeth and yet only manage to kill three people. The good news is that means these people are stupid. :
. It doesn't sound like they wanted to kill anyone except cops. They managed to kill kill of those in cold blood.
 
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