who is a muslim?

[Syed]

Correct, God did not program our actions. We have free will. Yet, you still think there are things God doesn't know. That He knows doesn't mean He is making people make the choices He already knows people will make.

If God made the universe and knew the trajectory of each cause-effect chain that he set in motion, then he knows what we’ll do because he made our decisions at the start of time in making the universe in just the way he did. I think that's rather what Omniscience implies, that he knew what each thing he made at the start of time would eventually lead to, and knowing the choices at that time does indeed mean he made those choices... just, distantly. But for your scenario to work, the universe will have to have unpredictable randomness in it, and with these random bits of the universe god knows what will happen not by being the maker of the events but only by psychism. He rather not the author of the universe in this scenario, to some extent just a watcher. Or maybe you’re just picturing humans as the special exception to the rule, because humans tend to do that for themselves: they keep imagining a profound disconnect between themselves and the rest of the universe, just cuz "we're special".

- - - Updated - - -

god knows every thing, god gave human freewill to chose good and bad, so god cant say what he will choose

How is the contradiction lost on you? “God knows everything” and “God can’t say what humans will choose” cannot both be true!

my mistake read again

god knows every thing, BUT god gave human >>freewill<< to chose good and bad, so god cant say what he will choose

 

[Syed]

fast

you did reply to my this post

read again

1) GOD built a human-robot without freewill or programed, the robot will not do anything that GOD did not programed to do, so GOD knows 100% for sure what he will do in future

2) GOD built a human-robot with freewill to makes choice good and bad, GOD cant predict what he will do in future

 

[fast]

fast

you did reply to my this post

read again

1) GOD built a human-robot without freewill or programed, the robot will not do anything that GOD did not programed to do, so GOD knows 100% for sure what he will do in future

God did no such thing. A) He created man, not some kind of robot, and even if He did so and did so with such a thing having no free will, then we must still assume omniscience to conclude He will know (for sure), which by the way isn't mere knowledge but Cartesian certainty, what this man/robot will do in the future.

2) GOD built a human-robot with freewill to makes choice good and bad, GOD cant predict what he will do in future

Again, God created man. He did not create a robot or a human robot. He created man, and He knows (just as I know) humans (more often than not) have free will. As to your claim that God is ignorant, I disagree. He is knowledgable, infallibly so. You may think (and think as you might) that He can't make predictions without mistake, He can--if there is a God and He is omnipotent.

 

[Syed]

God did no such thing. A) He created man, not some kind of robot, and even if He did so and did so with such a thing having no free will, then we must still assume omniscience to conclude He will know (for sure), which by the way isn't mere knowledge but Cartesian certainty, what this man/robot will do in the future.

2) GOD built a human-robot with freewill to makes choice good and bad, GOD cant predict what he will do in future

Again, God created man. He did not create a robot or a human robot. He created man, and He knows (just as I know) humans (more often than not) have free will. As to your claim that God is ignorant, I disagree. He is knowledgable, infallibly so. You may think (and think as you might) that He can't make predictions without mistake, He can--if there is a God and He is omnipotent.

it was hypothetical question anyway

can god choose something NOT to know? for example what i will be eating for break fast today?

 

[fast]

God did no such thing. A) He created man, not some kind of robot, and even if He did so and did so with such a thing having no free will, then we must still assume omniscience to conclude He will know (for sure), which by the way isn't mere knowledge but Cartesian certainty, what this man/robot will do in the future.

Again, God created man. He did not create a robot or a human robot. He created man, and He knows (just as I know) humans (more often than not) have free will. As to your claim that God is ignorant, I disagree. He is knowledgable, infallibly so. You may think (and think as you might) that He can't make predictions without mistake, He can--if there is a God and He is omnipotent.

it was hypothetical question anyway

can god choose something NOT to know? for example what i will be eating for break fast today?

I don't know. He may have the power, I suppose.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Just out of curiosity, Syed ... here you are, telling us what your god can and can't do, what it knows and doesn't (want to) know, what "sins" it will or won't forgive ... but in what way are you qualified to pronounce on such matters? Where do you get your info from? Are you personally acquainted with your god that you can tell us all about it, or are you just either repeating what you've been told by other, similarly unqualified, people or simply making things up? Because, as far as any real knowledge about deities goes, I don't think you know, anymore than any of us non-believers know.

 

[Syed]

it was hypothetical question anyway

can god choose something NOT to know? for example what i will be eating for break fast today?

I don't know. He may have the power, I suppose.

freewill imply god does not know

 

[fast]

I don't know. He may have the power, I suppose.

freewill imply god does not know

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you know that I will do something, then there is an implication, for knowledge implies truth, so if you know that I will do something, then by implication, it's true that I will do it. If I don't do it, then it's not true that I did it and also not true you knew I would do it. If I do do it, it's not because you knew I would do it. Your knowing something about what I will do doesn't make me do what I will (or what I must).

 

[Syed]

freewill imply god does not know

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

.

did god knew from the eternity which human is saved and which human is un-save?

 

[Syed]

Just out of curiosity, Syed ... here you are, telling us what your god can and can't do, what it knows and doesn't (want to) know, what "sins" it will or won't forgive ... but in what way are you qualified to pronounce on such matters? Where do you get your info from?

every thing i said was from MY understanding of the quran

btw i could be wrong but that what i believe for now

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just out of curiosity, Syed ... here you are, telling us what your god can and can't do, what it knows and doesn't (want to) know, what "sins" it will or won't forgive ... but in what way are you qualified to pronounce on such matters? Where do you get your info from?

every thing i said was from MY understanding of the quran

btw i could be wrong but that what i believe for now

But when you say, for example, what you believe atheism is, we atheists know enough about it to know you don't know shit about what you're talking about.
Why would anyone accept your understanding of the Koran as being more worth a shit than your understanding of history, atheism, Catholicism, free market, spelling, grammar, or the basic religious beliefs of rocks?

 

[Syed]

every thing i said was from MY understanding of the quran

btw i could be wrong but that what i believe for now

But when you say, for example, what you believe atheism is, we atheists know enough about it to know you don't know shit about what you're talking about.
Why would anyone accept your understanding of the Koran as being more worth a shit than your understanding of history, atheism, Catholicism, free market, spelling, grammar, or the basic religious beliefs of rocks?

i dont care you believe me or not

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Just out of curiosity, Syed ... here you are, telling us what your god can and can't do, what it knows and doesn't (want to) know, what "sins" it will or won't forgive ... but in what way are you qualified to pronounce on such matters? Where do you get your info from?

every thing i said was from MY understanding of the quran

btw i could be wrong but that what i believe for now

In other words, nothing of what you say is what you know. It's what you understand from what you consider an authority, i.e. the koran. None of which will make any sense or convince anybody who doesn't recognise it as an authority. You do understand that, don't you?

Why do you recognise the koran as an authority on the subject of god? Is it because you studied god and decided on reading the koran that it was right about god? Or because you studied the koran and decided on meeting god that the koran was right about god? Or because you were brought up by your family and culture to accept the koran as an authority on god, no questions asked?

 

[fast]

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

.

did god knew from the eternity which human is saved and which human is un-save?

If God is all-knowning, then yes. If what you believe is correct, then no, but if you're correct, then God is not all-knowing. I think most theists believe God is all-knowing, and this is where the issue of free will comes in. Some think, as you do, that man does not have free will if God knows absolutely everything including but not limited to future human choices made of their own free will. I believe it's a mistake to deny that humans have free will merely because God is all-knowing.

If I actually have a choice to make and God already knows what choice I will make, then just because he won't be mistaken doesn't mean what some seem to think. Some seem to think I must make the choice He unmistakenly knows I will make. No, it merely means I will make the choice. If a choice is a choice that I must make, then the choice is a necessary choice, not a contingent choice. If a choice is a necessary choice, the causal factor is not born of the consequences of knowledge but rather something else.

 

[Juma]

freewill imply god does not know

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you know that I will do something, then there is an implication, for knowledge implies truth, so if you know that I will do something, then by implication, it's true that I will do it. If I don't do it, then it's not true that I did it and also not true you knew I would do it. If I do do it, it's not because you knew I would do it. Your knowing something about what I will do doesn't make me do what I will (or what I must).

That is the reason why you can never know that you know, which makes "knowledge" a useless concept for anything than very abstract philosophical discussion about...
knowledge.

 

[fast]

There is no such implication. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you know that I will do something, then there is an implication, for knowledge implies truth, so if you know that I will do something, then by implication, it's true that I will do it. If I don't do it, then it's not true that I did it and also not true you knew I would do it. If I do do it, it's not because you knew I would do it. Your knowing something about what I will do doesn't make me do what I will (or what I must).

That is the reason why you can never know that you know, which makes "knowledge" a useless concept for anything than very abstract philosophical discussion about...
knowledge.

You can know something, and you can know that you know something. I know, for instance, that the cat is on the mat. I don't need to know the necessary conditions of knowledge to know something. All that is required is that the conditions are met, whether I know they are or not. If I know the conditions of knowledge and comprehend that they are met, then not only do I know something but know that I know something as well.

 

[Kharakov]

1) GOD built a human-robot without freewill or programed, the robot will not do anything that GOD did not programed to do, so GOD knows 100% for sure what he will do in future

2) GOD built a human-robot with freewill to makes choice good and bad, GOD cant predict what he will do in future

Classical/quantum divide is what you're describing Syed.

 

[Syed]

every thing i said was from MY understanding of the quran

btw i could be wrong but that what i believe for now

In other words, nothing of what you say is what you know. It's what you understand from what you consider an authority, i.e. the koran. None of which will make any sense or convince anybody who doesn't recognise it as an authority. You do understand that, don't you?

Why do you recognise the koran as an authority on the subject of god? Is it because you studied god and decided on reading the koran that it was right about god? Or because you studied the koran and decided on meeting god that the koran was right about god? Or because you were brought up by your family and culture to accept the koran as an authority on god, no questions asked?

god makes sense, quran makes sense so i am a believer

- - - Updated - - -

1) GOD built a human-robot without freewill or programed, the robot will not do anything that GOD did not programed to do, so GOD knows 100% for sure what he will do in future

2) GOD built a human-robot with freewill to makes choice good and bad, GOD cant predict what he will do in future

Classical/quantum divide is what you're describing Syed.

i dont understand what you saying

 

[Syed]

did god knew from the eternity which human is saved and which human is un-save?

If God is all-knowning, then yes. .

ok
let say god knew from the eternity that i am NOT save, WHO is fault here mine or god?

 

[fast]

If God is all-knowning, then yes. .

ok
let say god knew from the eternity that i am NOT save, WHO is fault here mine or god?

You