Fear of God - It's what makes us nicer: Study

[abaddon]

If you want some kind of freedom, then everyone else should have freedom, even if they are not as moral as you.

The freedom to do just anything?

I’m not sure why God, if he existed, must make murderers for the sake of free will. Our choices are limited already, perfect free will does not exist. So what would be so awful if it were "some kind of freedom" that is a different than the kind we have now? Say, for example, if God disallowed that any person might tie another person into a chair and murder them? Thus allowing the one person the freedom to not get tied up and murdered, and the other person to choose some other behavior than tying someone up and murdering them... I just don’t see a problem with God doing that, if he existed.

I wonder, is there freedom in heaven? Do people still make choices there? And is murder an option?

And anyway, the problem of evil is not just the actions of humans. If parasites inside a child’s eyes blind him, it’s not because of anyone’s free will. Except God’s.

Some theists still believe people bring problems upon themselves by being immoral. Get a disease... yeah, you musta done something to deserve it. It's all a test, including even natural disasters. God "spared" this one's life, maybe he was good and said his prayers. God "took" that other one's life, maybe he wasn't believing so strong as he ought to. God kills someone's kid, it's a "test" for the parents. That's the ugly consequence of stretching the idea of free will to explain evil. God gets a free pass no matter what horrid thing he does or allow anyone or anything else to do.

The well-reasoned answer cannot be that there's a reasonable and good intention for the existence of evil.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

fixed it... Well, duh.

That isn't a fix. They found that specifically belief in a God who knows and punishes wrong behavior give more (coins in a fake game) to hypothetical members of their religion.
Notice this says nothing about how they treat people outside their religion, or treat anyone in real world situations with real consequences and opportunities for gain by finding excuses to treat others badly.

An advantage to God's who have tons of rules is that it allows for finding many excuses to find a person in violation of those rules and thus not considered part of the same religion, and thus can be treated badly.

Exactly. This isn't news. This has been known for a long time. Religious people are closely knit within their religious ingroup, and demonize the outgroup. You will find that they ARE more generous to other members of their clan. You will also find that they are LESS generous and more brutal towards those outside their clan. Jon Haidt covers this very well in his book "Righteous Mind".

 

[Eric H]

I’m not sure why God, if he existed, must make murderers for the sake of free will. Our choices are limited already, perfect free will does not exist.

I agree with you that perfect free will cannot exist. But I believe that we were created for a greater purpose, to love God, and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. All the law of God hangs and depends on these two greatest commandments. But God cannot force us to be kind, caring and to love our neighbours, because love is something we should choose to do willingly ourselves.

If we are given this greatest purpose to love others, we must have the freedom to disobey this command, otherwise we would not love freely. Why would we want to disobey this command?

 

[Eric H]

Exactly. This isn't news. This has been known for a long time. Religious people are closely knit within their religious ingroup, and demonize the outgroup. You will find that they ARE more generous to other members of their clan. You will also find that they are LESS generous and more brutal towards those outside their clan. Jon Haidt covers this very well in his book "Righteous Mind".

Sadly, there is some truth in this, but it goes against the greatest commandments. We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences. Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain the greatest commandments. The priest and the Levite, who were both trying to follow their religious duties got it all wrong, and the non- religious Samaritan showed kindness.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Exactly. This isn't news. This has been known for a long time. Religious people are closely knit within their religious ingroup, and demonize the outgroup. You will find that they ARE more generous to other members of their clan. You will also find that they are LESS generous and more brutal towards those outside their clan. Jon Haidt covers this very well in his book "Righteous Mind".

Sadly, there is some truth in this, but it goes against the greatest commandments. We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences. Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain the greatest commandments. The priest and the Levite, who were both trying to follow their religious duties got it all wrong, and the non- religious Samaritan showed kindness.

Ah, that's sweet of him. Not "Well, I guess I'll step in and do something about the guy who's raping that child right now" kind of sweet, but still pretty sweet.

What a nice god.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Belief in punitive deities key factor in more co-operative society, study finds.

Scientists have found a long-awaited explanation as to why humans have for centuries maintained orderly societies: the fear of an angry god.

That's not what the study showed at all. The study was for in-goup vs out-group behaviour. The type of God was irrelevant. Only the strength of the identity. It's like saying that Nazis are more likely to be nice to other Nazis. Well.. duh.

 

[Eric H]

Sadly, there is some truth in this, but it goes against the greatest commandments. We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences. Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain the greatest commandments. The priest and the Levite, who were both trying to follow their religious duties got it all wrong, and the non- religious Samaritan showed kindness.

Ah, that's sweet of him. Not "Well, I guess I'll step in and do something about the guy who's raping that child right now" kind of sweet, but still pretty sweet.

What a nice god.

We have created the problems in this world, so it is right that we should try and intervene if we can. God created a world that we should be kind and caring in, we choose to go against God and do things our way, so there has to be evil.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ah, that's sweet of him. Not "Well, I guess I'll step in and do something about the guy who's raping that child right now" kind of sweet, but still pretty sweet.

What a nice god.

We have created the problems in this world, so it is right that we should try and intervene if we can. God created a world that we should be kind and caring in, we choose to go against God and do things our way, so there has to be evil.

Wut? I'm not following you at all.

You seem to be saying something along the lines of:

P1) ...
P2) ...
C) Therefore, there has to be evil like child rape

I really don't see what legitimate set of premises would lead one to that conclusion. Could you fill in the blanks?

Also, given that I don't know which of the 87,445 versions of God you believe in, do you think that he answers prayers and intervenes in the world in response to those prayers? If so, do you believe that none of the children who have been raped throughout history have had faithful believers as parents who prayed for the safety and security of their children?

 

[Eric H]

Also, given that I don't know which of the 87,445 versions of God you believe in, do you think that he answers prayers and intervenes in the world in response to those prayers?

I believe in 'One God' the creator of all that is seen and unseen. You say, there could be 87,445 versions of God the creator, but he is still the same God. By the same understanding, there are thousands of Christian denominations, but we don't recognise there are a thousand Jesus Christ's. By the way, I am a Catholic.

If so, do you believe that none of the children who have been raped throughout history have had faithful believers as parents who prayed for the safety and security of their children?

I am sure there have been millions of people who have not had their prayers fulfilled throughout history. If we have cancer, we could pray for healing, but death is a certainty for all of us.

A few years ago, I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma, this was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength, peace and serenity to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment.

I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing was too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. I could not imagine this sense of peace without a faith and trust in God.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's not very responsive. There are Catholics who believe that God intervenes in the world in response to prayers and, I'm probably sure, those who do not. Are you one of the ones who believes he does that? It's a one word answer.

Now, while death is definitely a certainty for all of us, it's not a certainty that it will happen while we're children and haven't had a chance to live and will happen after we get horribly raped by a psychopath first. Now, many of the parents of the children which this has happened to have prayed for the safety and long life of their children. I know that if someone asked me to stop their child from getting raped and killed and I could accomplish this without any difficulty or risk on my part, I'd do it without any hesitation ten times out of ten. If your answer to the above question is yes, what would be a reason for your God deciding not to do it from time to time?

 

[Eric H]

That's not very responsive. There are Catholics who believe that God intervenes in the world in response to prayers and, I'm probably sure, those who do not. Are you one of the ones who believes he does that? It's a one word answer.

Yes, I believe God answers some prayers.

I know that if someone asked me to stop their child from getting raped and killed and I could accomplish this without any difficulty or risk on my part, I'd do it without any hesitation ten times out of ten.

If God were to prevent every rape, I am sure that he would intervene in many other ways too. God wanted marriage for life between one man and one woman. I can imagine that God would not be happy with the pornography industry, this just heightens temptations.

We allow twenty children to die every day as a result of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. God set out laws regarding how we should treat the poor, we should not charge them interest, so out goes the world banking system. I can't imagine that God would be happy with the stock market and hedge funds.

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, I believe God answers some prayers.

Like what? Given your answers below, I'm curious what your opinion is of how and why he decides to intervene.

I know that if someone asked me to stop their child from getting raped and killed and I could accomplish this without any difficulty or risk on my part, I'd do it without any hesitation ten times out of ten.

If God were to prevent every rape, I am sure that he would intervene in many other ways too. God wanted marriage for life between one man and one woman. I can imagine that God would not be happy with the pornography industry, this just heightens temptations.

The context of your statement makes it sound like you feel that his stopping every rape and the like would be some kind of negative. I don't see why this would be the case. If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest because you really don't feel like preventing a rape today or would you do every time you could? I'd do it every time I could and don't see why I should hold God to a lower standard than I'd set for myself.

We allow twenty children to die every day as a result of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. God set out laws regarding how we should treat the poor, we should not charge them interest, so out goes the world banking system. I can't imagine that God would be happy with the stock market and hedge funds.

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

Well, we let all of those poor people die because we have limited power, limited knowledge and limited benevolence. That places restrictions on what we're willing and able to do. God doesn't have these restrictions. If he's real, then the reason that they died is because he stood there and watched them die when he could have saved them. If I see someone starving to death and I'm standing next to him with a sandwich that I'm not going to eat and I just walk away and toss the sandwich in the trash instead of giving him the sandwich, then I'm, at best, kind of a dick. God has the ability to give free sandwiches to everybody and, given that the world doesn't gain anything by having those poor people die instead of live, he's just letting them die for no reason. Since you say he intervenes in the world in response to prayers, why are sandwiches for hungry people too much to ask from him?

 

[Eric H]

If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery? Adultery destroys families, it can cause hardship depression and children suffer.

Where do you draw the line on when God should intervene?

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could live by these two commandments, then we should not rape, kill or hurt others. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

 

[Angry Floof]

If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery? Adultery destroys families, it can cause hardship depression and children suffer.

Where do you draw the line on when God should intervene?

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could live by these two commandments, then we should not rape, kill or hurt others. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

Why are you asking what someone else would expect of your God? Are you saying God is some kind of human-like person with limits that any human should recognize and agree with? What do the terms 'omnipotent' and 'omniscient' mean to you? Why give God those traits if you're going to also claim he behaves like a human? And then act as if you're surprised someone is not reasonable enough to play along with this figure eight contradiction?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery? Adultery destroys families, it can cause hardship depression and children suffer.

Where do you draw the line on when God should intervene?

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could live by these two commandments, then we should not rape, kill or hurt others. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

What's wrong with drawing the line at adulthood? Say, the eighteenth birthday. You get to vote and God leaves you to the consequences of your and others' actions.

Someone wants to rape a twenty year old, God lets it happen and turns up the radio to drown out her cries for help. Someone wants to rape a ten year old, he keeps tripping and falling every time he tries to grab her. You want to gun down a village for the crime of being part of Tribe B instead of Tribe A, you can go nuts but all of your bullets just happen to miss any children and the survivors have all their fridges fully stocked afterwards.

Adults can do what they want to each other and he leaves them be but attempts to victimize children just ... don't work.

Or how about not having natural disasters and accidents be a thing? Tornados always spin off to the left and miss the trailer park. Tsunamis only flood uninhabited areas. Electrical boxes are designed to switch off in the event of children sticking a fork in a socket and minor fender benders are the worst that people driving in cars need to be concerned with. None of those would interfere with free will and they'd make life immeasurably better for millions. What's wrong with that type of intervention?

There are really many, many places where God could draw the line in order to help out where needed but not control us too fully.

What I still don't know from you is where you have him drawing the line. You say that he intervenes but don't have him intervening to stop rapes, murders, war or anything else where he may be useful. Where do you have him stopping?

 

[Learner]

Man has already been given a self Governance as seen in Gods covenant with Noah.

Genesis 9.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Or how about not having natural disasters and accidents be a thing? Tornados always spin off to the left and miss the trailer park. Tsunamis only flood uninhabited areas.

Good ideas and the answers are there. The gift of common sense. Wonder why man builds homes on known fault lines and by the seashores without instant special escape measures. Oddly enough we have that experience knowing these situations.

Electrical boxes are designed to switch off in the event of children sticking a fork in a socket and minor fender benders are the worst that people driving in cars need to be concerned with. None of those would interfere with free will and they'd make life immeasurably better for millions. What's wrong with that type of intervention?

More common sense in use... an example , the ability is there to prevent disastrious outcomes to ourselves ,when we decide to get it right.

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could live by these two commandments, then we should not rape, kill or hurt others. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

 

[iolo]

Doesn't all this stuff depend on what you have been brought to believe? If you believe in certain kinds of gods sufficiently deeply (and I see no evidence that any but a tiny minority of Americans do) it probably means it leads you to be a bit better behaved, though hardly 'nicer'.

 

[Learner]

Doesn't all this stuff depend on what you have been brought to believe? If you believe in certain kinds of gods sufficiently deeply (and I see no evidence that any but a tiny minority of Americans do) it probably means it leads you to be a bit better behaved, though hardly 'nicer'.

True as there will obviously be various views of life by how each individual is brought up.

 

[Eric H]

What's wrong with drawing the line at adulthood? Say, the eighteenth birthday. You get to vote and God leaves you to the consequences of your and others' actions.

Someone wants to rape a twenty year old, God lets it happen and turns up the radio to drown out her cries for help. Someone wants to rape a ten year old, he keeps tripping and falling every time he tries to grab her.

I preferred your previous answer, when you said you would stop all rape if you had the power to do so. Now you want to give the rapist freedom to rape, providing their victim is over 18.

Adults can do what they want to each other and he leaves them be

Is this where freethought, logic and reason lead us? If there is no god, then we can all have a good time at the expense of others, providing we can get away with it. This seems to be in direct opposition to God's command, to love our neighbour as we love ourselves.

Or how about not having natural disasters and accidents be a thing? Tornados always spin off to the left and miss the trailer park. Tsunamis only flood uninhabited areas.

You seemed to be ok with tribe A, shooting all the adults in tribe B, so you seem to be ok with violent death, so why would it be any worse dying in a tornado or tsunamis? Do we prefer to kill our enemy, rather than let nature take its toll.

You want to gun down a village for the crime of being part of Tribe B instead of Tribe A, you can go nuts but all of your bullets just happen to miss any children and the survivors have all their fridges fully stocked afterwards.

Adults can do what they want to each other and he leaves them be but attempts to victimize children just ... don't work.

We are not God, all we can do is try our best to make this world a slightly better place to live in.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery? Adultery destroys families, it can cause hardship depression and children suffer.

Where do you draw the line on when God should intervene?

If God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, it then makes sense that God would want us to willingly love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. If we could live by these two commandments, then we should not rape, kill or hurt others. This does not sound like rocket science, and it does not sound unreasonable either.

It's Theodicy. The Greeks figured out that if the gods exist, they're evil fucking cunts. This still applied when Christianity was invented.

The answer is every time. Remember that God is ominipotent and ominscient. It has zero cost to God to save every innocent from wrong-doing. The fact that God doesn't do it means that either God isn't omnipotent, omniscient, good or existing at all. It has to be one of those.