Fear of God - It's what makes us nicer: Study

[arkirk]

I don't think fearing God has any useful effect on society. This fear is actually the fear of people to face the real life they are experiencing. It places an unreal filter on one's perceptions and also can interfere with one's natural self protective functions. Fear generally has a paralytic effect on one's ability to act. It does not make people nicer though it may make them more obedient in a Nazi sense. Fear of being out of step or maladjusted is fear of nonconformity. When everybody around you says they believe in God saying you don't is a tremendous social liability and leads to either overt or covert forms of punishment for nonconformity. Fear of either God or God believers is essentially the same thing and looks the same. Fear of God is a tool of social manipulators and actually fear of something that is real.

 

[ronburgundy]

The law of the land is there for a purpose, if the laws are fair, then we should obey them willingly. For some people, the fear of getting caught and punished, is the main deterrent for not committing a crime. Some criminals have no fear of the law, or think up devious schemes to evade capture.

God's laws hang and depend on the greatest commandments, we show our love for God by obeying his commandments, and we love our neighbours as we love ourselves. It would be better if we did this freely and willingly, but if not, then the fear of God should stop us committing crimes against our neighbours.

Fear of God more often keeps people from being kind to their neighbors. The problem with the God concept is that its completely made up and all notions of what God commands are invented fiction. "Thou shall not kill" carries little weight when the same text commands all kinds of immoral killing of people who have done nothing to harm anyone. Fear of God means you can rationalize doing anything to anyone with the excuse "I had to, because God said so." It is the ultimate form of "Just following orders",
where the person not only could have disobeyed, they are one's who made up the orders in the first place and then lied and said "God told me."

 

[Underseer]

Belief in punitive deities key factor in more co-operative society, study finds.

Scientists have found a long-awaited explanation as to why humans have for centuries maintained orderly societies: the fear of an angry god.

As Tom pointed out, the study is using an extremely narrow definition of "nice."

You'll find plenty of other studies correlating religiosity in a population with a wide variety of social ills that are anything but nice.

When you teach people to use bad arguments to support bad conclusions, they will use what you teach them to make bad decisions, which is why you get more violent crime, more divorce, more abortions, more poverty, increased likelihood of addiction to dangerous drugs, and whole host of other crap.

Instead of scaring people into behaving using fanciful stories about a magical boogeyman, it would be better to simply explain to them why wrong things are wrong.

C'mon, people. The Euthyphro dilemma was originally proposed thousands of years ago. We've known all along you can't get morality from an external authority. The most you can get is obedience.

 

[Angry Floof]

Belief in punitive deities key factor in more co-operative society, study finds.

As Tom pointed out, the study is using an extremely narrow definition of "nice."

You'll find plenty of other studies correlating religiosity in a population with a wide variety of social ills that are anything but nice.

When you teach people to use bad arguments to support bad conclusions, they will use what you teach them to make bad decisions, which is why you get more violent crime, more divorce, more abortions, more poverty, increased likelihood of addiction to dangerous drugs, and whole host of other crap.

Instead of scaring people into behaving using fanciful stories about a magical boogeyman, it would be better to simply explain to them why wrong things are wrong.

C'mon, people. The Euthyphro dilemma was originally proposed thousands of years ago. We've known all along you can't get morality from an external authority. The most you can get is obedience.

And also consider that it's not news or controversial to say that simply having others around to potentially see what we're doing is probably the most effective factor. Fear (other than fear of ordinary human consequences) as well as god beliefs are entirely optional. As someone else pointed out, mortal fear and superstition only make the motivation to conform to social rules more like cults or Nazis, good little obedience machines, than just ordinary, social-animal accountability. All you need for that is the presence of other humans, or just the perception that someone is watching combined with the social conditioning required to believe the act to be unacceptable and fear of social consequences.

There may be other factors as well, and exceptions, of course, as with sociopaths and psychopath. (If those folks believe in God, it must be the God of people like Ted Haggard. Because who but an extreme sociopath or psychopath could do the shamey shamey with boys while believing in an all-knowing, punishing God? BUT while wisely keeping it from other humans?)

Presence of another is all you need, whether you believe it's God, a ghost, or your mom, none of which are required to be threatening in any way other than whatever social consequences you've been conditioned to believe will happen if someone sees. Ranging from mild embarrassment to prison.

No need for hell, or God, or grandma's spirit, but those work the same as a real, human presence, and real, human and not necessarily terrible consequences.

 

[Philos]

Folks,

I'm puzzled. If a theist has a fear of God, then what would an agnostic (like me) have to fear? Is it that I don't know what to fear, or is it that I'm afraid of the not knowing? I don't think its the latter, because I quite enjoy being an agnostic and have chosen that mindset as a positive. So, I don't think I'm afraid of the not knowing, but kind of relish it.

So, I guess I just don't know what to be afraid of. Its a real problem (or not?).

Alex.

 

[Angry Floof]

Folks,

I'm puzzled. If a theist has a fear of God, then what would an agnostic (like me) have to fear? Is it that I don't know what to fear, or is it that I'm afraid of the not knowing? I don't think its the latter, because I quite enjoy being an agnostic and have chosen that mindset as a positive. So, I don't think I'm afraid of the not knowing, but kind of relish it.

So, I guess I just don't know what to be afraid of. Its a real problem (or not?).

Alex.

What you have to fear is other humans. And fear, per se, is not required. All you need is the belief that what you're doing is unacceptable by your social group, and the presence of a possible witness to what you're doing.

Fear of pain or death or torture for eternity are entirely optional.

 

[Underseer]

Folks,

I'm puzzled. If a theist has a fear of God, then what would an agnostic (like me) have to fear? Is it that I don't know what to fear, or is it that I'm afraid of the not knowing? I don't think its the latter, because I quite enjoy being an agnostic and have chosen that mindset as a positive. So, I don't think I'm afraid of the not knowing, but kind of relish it.

So, I guess I just don't know what to be afraid of. Its a real problem (or not?).

Alex.

Humans are a social species. On some level at least, you fear the negative perception of those around you, as Hylidae pointed out.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You guys are all behind the times. FDR made it abundantly clear that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. That's how I operate.

 

[bilby]

FDR obviously never saw our Australian spiders.

 

[fromderinside]

FDR obviously never saw our Australian spiders.

Sure he did. I'm sure he saw this.

Its from the below released in 1943

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

FDR obviously never saw our Australian spiders.

Sure he did. I'm sure he saw this.

Its from the below released in 1943

Can you believe that? Cheetah is pictured in the flyer but not mentioned in the script. Fucking bullshit.

 

[Philos]

Humans are a social species. On some level at least, you fear the negative perception of those around you, as Hylidae pointed out.

Folks,

Not sure if I'm up for this 'herd mentality' stuff. Also, the "you fear" feels a bit finger waggy.

Apologies for disagreeing (bow, scrape).

Alex.

 

[Angry Floof]

Humans are a social species. On some level at least, you fear the negative perception of those around you, as Hylidae pointed out.

Folks,

Not sure if I'm up for this 'herd mentality' stuff. Also, the "you fear" feels a bit finger waggy.

Apologies for disagreeing (bow, scrape).

Alex.

Philos, we are a herd species, like it or not. We're both individualistic and collective, but social influence is so much greater and more powerful than most of us realize (mainly because we're conditioned to think we are islands in our experiences and decisions).

The fear that Underseer and I are talking about is not strong fear, but the discomfort of social embarrassment or judgment. For some, the social environment is harsh or abusive, but generally it's just embarrassment and social stigma we want to avoid when we choose to go along with social norms.

 

[fromderinside]

Philos, we are a herd species, like it or not.

The fear that Underseer and I are talking about is not strong fear, but ..... generally it's just embarrassment and social stigma we want to avoid when we choose to go along with social norms.

Pretty close to a contradiction there. Herding animals don't choose, they follow.

However I agree we choose so I tend to put herding in the background more like a reflex or conditioned activity. Because of this belief I put humans among those who actually think and decide even above those who prey since most do so instinctively.

 

[Angry Floof]

Philos, we are a herd species, like it or not.

The fear that Underseer and I are talking about is not strong fear, but ..... generally it's just embarrassment and social stigma we want to avoid when we choose to go along with social norms.

Pretty close to a contradiction there. Herding animals don't choose, they follow.

However I agree we choose so I tend to put herding in the background more like a reflex or conditioned activity. Because of this belief I put humans among those who actually think and decide even above those who prey since most do so instinctively.

What I meant is that as a social species, there are innumerable social influences on all of us at any given time from birth to death. That we are *also* a species of self-aware, unique individuals is not a contradiction and does not diminish the powerful force of social influences, but probably does diminish our individual awareness of those influences, much of which is subtle and subconscious even for those who make a point to try and learn as much about our nature as we can.

 

[fromderinside]

. That we are *also* a species of self-aware, unique individuals is not a contradiction and does not diminish the powerful force of social influences, but probably does diminish our individual awareness of those influences, much of which is subtle and subconscious even for those who make a point to try and learn as much about our nature as we can.

Well put. Perhaps what you get at is one reason so many of us say no to about any suggestive input as a first response. As for learning about our nature last time I looked motivation and emotion were academic memories. Wasted about six years there. Wanna compare perspectives on comparative autonomic nervous systems some time?

 

[Angry Floof]

. That we are *also* a species of self-aware, unique individuals is not a contradiction and does not diminish the powerful force of social influences, but probably does diminish our individual awareness of those influences, much of which is subtle and subconscious even for those who make a point to try and learn as much about our nature as we can.

Well put. Perhaps what you get at is one reason so many of us say no to about any suggestive input as a first response. As for learning about our nature last time I looked motivation and emotion were academic memories. Wasted about six years there. Wanna compare perspectives on comparative autonomic nervous systems some time?

We already did that, Fromsie, remember? About a month ago. Anyway, I tend to view these things from a cognitive science perspective.

 

[fromderinside]

Well put. Perhaps what you get at is one reason so many of us say no to about any suggestive input as a first response. As for learning about our nature last time I looked motivation and emotion were academic memories. Wasted about six years there. Wanna compare perspectives on comparative autonomic nervous systems some time?

We already did that, Fromsie, remember? About a month ago. Anyway, I tend to view these things from a cognitive science perspective.

Such a waste when all you have to do is reduce the number of synapses to one or two from seven to eleven to have a chance there.

 

[Underseer]

Humans are a social species. On some level at least, you fear the negative perception of those around you, as Hylidae pointed out.

Folks,

Not sure if I'm up for this 'herd mentality' stuff. Also, the "you fear" feels a bit finger waggy.

Apologies for disagreeing (bow, scrape).

Alex.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, and the herd mentality is a genuine concern. It's a double edged sword. It stops you from shoplifting, but it might also convince you that stuffing Jews into gas chambers by the million is a good idea.

We need to understand the nature of these evolutionary imperatives both to embrace the positive aspects and avoid the negative.

 

[Angry Floof]

I still put forth the assertion that social influences are much more powerful than most of us realize, certainly more powerful than any of us is conscious of at any given time.

In talking about subconscious drivers, we seem to forget that more subtle equates to more powerful. It's easy to avoid the obvious. Not so much the subconscious.

An example I like is Church Lady from SNL. Remember her? Watching her (Dana Carvey), we can laugh and understand that clearly we are not so petty in our judgments of others, or so nosy, or so repressed. Clearly that's a base mentality not worthy of self aware, self respecting, intelligent humans like us. And of course most of us are not going to be so obvious. Yet, even the best of us are often petty and judgmental, only we tend to do it in more subtle, socially acceptable ways.

We're slaves to herd mentality to the extent that we think we're not (get it? subconscious), and to the extent that we don't understand or accept or look at or admit when it's driving us. Human herds are not always physically together moving in herds in an obvious fashion.

Our influences are subtle and complex and constant, and therefore our self reflective habits should also be subtle and complex and constant if we want to overcome whatever undesirable behaviors arise from subconscious drivers.

I'm going to turn everyone into cognitive science geeks if it's the last thing I do!