University of Minnesota Sexual Assault Case

[KeepTalking]

Perhaps they were not suspended for sexual assault, but for breaking other school or team rules revealed by the video of the incident. These may include, but are not limited to, underage drinking, drug use, or video taping themselves performing a sex act.

Dismal has already shown that that is not so,

He did no such thing, he only provided a rebuttal to my post, in which he contended that it would be fake news if what I posted was correct. His dismal post has already been addressed by another poster, showing that his contention is just the same bullshit we always expect from dismal, an attempt to turn things around on his perceived opposition, which nearly always fails.

but if it was, it highlights more female privilege. Did you know that if a female student alleges rape (even if falsely) she is immune from any punishment due to any other violations of the college rules such as underage drinking or drug use. It gives female students more incentive to cry rape.

Here is a relevant quote from the article that lead me to bring up the points in my previous post:

University President Eric Kaler wrote in a letter to donors Wednesday that football coach Tracy Claeys, with athletic director Mark Coyle’s support, decided to suspend the players from the team ahead of its Dec. 27 bowl game in San Diego.

They were suspended by the coach of the team, this indicates to me that they broke team rules. I doubt that the female student in this case was on the football team, so it would be hard for her to be suspended from the team for breaking team rules.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If the rule in question is "Don't rape people", then yes, they do decide that.

If the rule in question is "Wash your jock strap after each practice", then that's probably not a police matter.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that one of their rules is 'don't do shit that makes the team and school look bad' or some variant on that theme. And being caught, on film, at a party with drug use, underage drinking, and HIGHLY questionable sex acts, qualifies. Because the definition of "what is ethically considered a 'rape'?" has frayed and arbitrary edges, and because this is a private institution, they have a right to have a different definition of what precisely qualifies it as one. And perhaps, for them, the questionable sex act caught on film qualifies as one, whereas in the eyes of the government it is not. It is not unlike a church excommunicating a member for some grave sin that does not otherwise exist in the eyes of the law. The church still has that right.

Now, there is some question of whether a state university may have different formal definitions of rape than the state itself; but because universities are generally afforded the power to set tighter standards of behavior in other regulations, they probably should get that right here, too.

If the punishments are for the first, I don't have much of an issue.

If it's the second, I do. Rape should mean having nonconsensual sex with someone and the determination of whether that happened should be a criminal matter handled by people who are trained to investigate crimes.

 

[laughing dog]

Why? Do the police decide whether or not football players violated team rules?

If the rule in question is "Don't rape people", then yes, they do decide that.

Logically and operationally that is untrue unless the police also run the football team.

If the rule in question is "Wash your jock strap after each practice", then that's probably not a police matter.

Or any other rule the coach and university deems appropriate.

 

[Derec]

They were suspended by the coach of the team, this indicates to me that they broke team rules. I doubt that the female student in this case was on the football team, so it would be hard for her to be suspended from the team for breaking team rules.

They are still facing possible expulsion by the school administrator while the accuser is facing no consequences even if it turns out she was lying.
Emma "Mattress Girl" Sulkowitz was not expelled from Columbia. Not even Jackie Coakley was expelled from UVA. Making false rape allegations is a very safe way for women to take revenge for whatever reason.

 

[Derec]

That varies from from college to college. Brigham Young only decided twop weeks ago to stop punishing students coming forward with sexual assault violations who were assaulted while violating conduct codes against drinking, dancing, etc. (Yes there are schools that prohibit dancing and being alone with the opposite sex.)

If even BYU does it, then it is safe to assume this university does too. I think it's wrong for a female can escape punishment for school violation just by alleging rape. It gives her extra incentive to do so even if the sex was completely consensual or even if no sex ever took place (see Jackie Coakley false rape allegations at UVA). Caught underage drinking or doing drugs? Just say you were "raped" and they can't touch you. Also your use of "who were assaulted" implies that all such claims are true, which is certainly bullshit.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that one of their rules is 'don't do shit that makes the team and school look bad' or some variant on that theme. And being caught, on film, at a party with drug use, underage drinking, and HIGHLY questionable sex acts, qualifies. Because the definition of "what is ethically considered a 'rape'?" has frayed and arbitrary edges, and because this is a private institution, they have a right to have a different definition of what precisely qualifies it as one. And perhaps, for them, the questionable sex act caught on film qualifies as one, whereas in the eyes of the government it is not. It is not unlike a church excommunicating a member for some grave sin that does not otherwise exist in the eyes of the law. The church still has that right.

Now, there is some question of whether a state university may have different formal definitions of rape than the state itself; but because universities are generally afforded the power to set tighter standards of behavior in other regulations, they probably should get that right here, too.

If the punishments are for the first, I don't have much of an issue.

If it's the second, I do. Rape should mean having nonconsensual sex with someone and the determination of whether that happened should be a criminal matter handled by people who are trained to investigate crimes.

I disagree, because what constitutes consent is, while clear in many cases, fuzzy around the edges, especially when people are in impaired states. I doubt the law would consider some of the sex I've been involved in rape, but to me it was, and many others would probably agree with me. Other times, sex I've been involved in would see me as a rapist in the eyes of the law when no party involved would ever make such a declaration. Even the definition of what constitutes rape in the eyes of the law is a subject up for debate, and it has been for a very long time.

Saying that simply because the legal system for government has adjudicated something as not-rape does not establish for all parties that it wasn't. It means they can't be jailed or imprisoned. But that can't and should not deny other organizations the right to hold their own position on what the thing that happened ought be called.

 

[laughing dog]

They were suspended by the coach of the team, this indicates to me that they broke team rules. I doubt that the female student in this case was on the football team, so it would be hard for her to be suspended from the team for breaking team rules.

They are still facing possible expulsion by the school administrator while the accuser is facing no consequences even if it turns out she was lying.
Emma "Mattress Girl" Sulkowitz was not expelled from Columbia. Not even Jackie Coakley was expelled from UVA. Making false rape allegations is a very safe way for women to take revenge for whatever reason.

You keep confusing "false" with "lie".

 

[Derec]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that one of their rules is 'don't do shit that makes the team and school look bad' or some variant on that theme.

And consensual sex makes the team and school look bad? If the school makes athelets who party and engage in sexual activity automatically suspect and subject to suspensions then that will harm their recruiting efforts. I.e. this heavy-handed treatment of male students is what is making the school look bad.

And being caught, on film, at a party with drug use, underage drinking, and HIGHLY questionable sex acts, qualifies.

But the girl was also at the party with drug use, underage drinking and questionable sex acts. Why isn't she facing consequences for her behavior? Oh yes, I forgot, she is "lacking in testosterone" so she can get away with things people who have testosterone can't.

Because the definition of "what is ethically considered a 'rape'?" has frayed and arbitrary edges, and because this is a private institution, they have a right to have a different definition of what precisely qualifies it as one.

So you think they can randomly and arbitrarily decide what rape is? Rape has a meaning, if you start calling consensual sex "rape" the word loses any legitimate meaning.

And perhaps, for them, the questionable sex act caught on film qualifies as one, whereas in the eyes of the government it is not. It is not unlike a church excommunicating a member for some grave sin that does not otherwise exist in the eyes of the law. The church still has that right.

Let's say this university defines "rape" very loosely. But if the sex in question was consensual then both parties engaged in it freely. So if one is a "rapist", then so is the other. Why should females be given a free pass here?

Now, there is some question of whether a state university may have different formal definitions of rape than the state itself; but because universities are generally afforded the power to set tighter standards of behavior in other regulations, they probably should get that right here, too.

Including discriminating by gender how they apply those ridiculously restrictive standards?

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You keep confusing "false" with "lie".

Unless they somehow did not know that they were making a false accusation, then the false accusations were most certainly lies.

But anything to excuse a female. You are such a white knight.

 

[Derec]

Saying that simply because the legal system for government has adjudicated something as not-rape does not establish for all parties that it wasn't. It means they can't be jailed or imprisoned. But that can't and should not deny other organizations the right to hold their own position on what the thing that happened ought be called.

As long as females (aka "those lacking testosterone") get away with whatever you do and only ever male students are punished for overly broad definitions of "rape" you mean?

Or are you advocating expelling female students for having consensual sex with a male student who regrets it at some later date?

 

[Malintent]

Perhaps they were not suspended for sexual assault, but for breaking other school or team rules revealed by the video of the incident. These may include, but are not limited to, underage drinking, drug use, or video taping themselves performing a sex act.

Dismal has already shown that that is not so, but if it was, it highlights more female privilege. Did you know that if a female student alleges rape (even if falsely) she is immune from any punishment due to any other violations of the college rules such as underage drinking or drug use. It gives female students more incentive to cry rape.

More evidence we live in a culture of Rape ACCUSATION.

 

[laughing dog]

Unless they somehow did not know that they were making a false accusation, then the false accusations were most certainly lies.

Since you acknowledge the difference, unless you have indisputable evidence as to their state of minds, it is just another case of your anything to accuse a female. You are such a misogynist.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If the punishments are for the first, I don't have much of an issue.

If it's the second, I do. Rape should mean having nonconsensual sex with someone and the determination of whether that happened should be a criminal matter handled by people who are trained to investigate crimes.

I disagree, because what constitutes consent is, while clear in many cases, fuzzy around the edges, especially when people are in impaired states. I doubt the law would consider some of the sex I've been involved in rape, but to me it was, and many others would probably agree with me. Other times, sex I've been involved in would see me as a rapist in the eyes of the law when no party involved would ever make such a declaration. Even the definition of what constitutes rape in the eyes of the law is a subject up for debate, and it has been for a very long time.

Saying that simply because the legal system for government has adjudicated something as not-rape does not establish for all parties that it wasn't. It means they can't be jailed or imprisoned. But that can't and should not deny other organizations the right to hold their own position on what the thing that happened ought be called.

I don't disagree with that in principle. What I disagree with is the use of university administrators with little or no training in investigative techniques being the ones making the determination of that. There's a reason that police go to a police academy before conducting investigations and DAs go to law school before determining whether or not to file charges. It's fine for them to have different standards, provided that there are qualified individuals determining whether or not those standards have been broken.

 

[Derec]

Since you acknowledge the difference, unless you have indisputable evidence as to their state of minds, it is just another case of your anything to accuse a female. You are such a misogynist.

Actually the burden is on you to show that the women making these clearly false accusations did not know they were false.

 

[laughing dog]

Since you acknowledge the difference, unless you have indisputable evidence as to their state of minds, it is just another case of your anything to accuse a female. You are such a misogynist.

Actually the burden is on you to show that the women making these clearly false accusations did not know they were false.

You are the one making a positive claim that they are lying, not me. You are the one who needs to come up with the evidence to support your claim that they are lying because "false" does not equal "lie". So either put up or stop embarrassing yourself with your misogynistically driven claims.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

That varies from from college to college. Brigham Young only decided twop weeks ago to stop punishing students coming forward with sexual assault violations who were assaulted while violating conduct codes against drinking, dancing, etc. (Yes there are schools that prohibit dancing and being alone with the opposite sex.)

If even BYU does it, then it is safe to assume this university does too.

Actually no. It's state law here that punishment for conduct cannot be meted out if it comes from an individual reporting a violent crime. It's also in the pending federal legislation.

 

[Derec]

Actually no. It's state law here that punishment for conduct cannot be meted out if it comes from an individual reporting a violent crime. It's also in the pending federal legislation.

Again, that gives an incentive to the female to make a false rape allegation because it shields her from any consequences for wrongdoing such as drug use or underage drinking.

But the left does not think false rape allegations are a problem, so they keep pushing policies that make false rape allegations more likely, not less.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Actually no. It's state law here that punishment for conduct cannot be meted out if it comes from an individual reporting a violent crime. It's also in the pending federal legislation.

Again, that gives an incentive to the female to make a false rape allegation because it shields her from any consequences for wrongdoing such as drug use or underage drinking.

But the left does not think false rape allegations are a problem, so they keep pushing policies that make false rape allegations more likely, not less.

The pending federal law is being pushed by conservatives. The state law had broad conservative support.

 

[Derec]

You are the one making a positive claim that they are lying, not me. You are the one who needs to come up with the evidence to support your claim that they are lying because "false" does not equal "lie". So either put up or stop embarrassing yourself with your misogynistically driven claims.

Making a false allegation is prima facie evidence of lying. If you somehow claim that these women did not know what they were doing (feminism infantalizes women by demanding they not be held accountable for their actions, see also the thread on the woman hiring a hit man) then the burden to prove this is on you.

- - - Updated - - -

This pending law is being pushed by conservatives.

Citation needed.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Citation needed.

H.R.3408 - Fair Campus Act of 2015

 

[Derec]

Citation needed.

H.R.3408 - Fair Campus Act of 2015

The summary does not seem to say what you say it says.

Fair Campus Act of 2015

This bill amends title I (General Provisions) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA) to establish requirements with respect to sexual violence allegations at institutions of higher education (IHEs).

An IHE that receives HEA funds, except a foreign institution, must provide support services to affected students and annual training to relevant personnel.

This bill prohibits an IHE from imposing sanctions on a person, including a student organization (e.g., a fraternity or sorority), with respect to alleged sexual violence, except pursuant to a formal hearing in accordance with institutional disciplinary proceedings. It specifies due process requirements for such proceedings, permits an IHE to select the applicable standard of proof, and directs an IHE to publish applicable procedures in its student handbook.

An IHE may initiate an institutional disciplinary proceeding to impose certain interim sanctions (e.g., a class schedule adjustment).

It also prohibits an IHE from requiring a sorority or fraternity to: (1) admit members who do not meet membership requirements, or (2) waive its coverage exemption under title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972 (title IX prohibits sex discrimination in federally funded education programs and activities) as a disciplinary or punitive measure.