Syed's Mega-Thread

[DrZoidberg]

You smoked 'em, Dr Zoidberg.

I just googled. This stuff is not hard to look up. But we know all this from way before. It's always the same thing. Christian fundies keep joining this forum thinking that they're bullet proof just because him and his palls at their Baptist church all validate eachothers ideas. The first instant they come into contact with anybody who has bothered to actually read the sacred text they hit a concrete wall, because they're completely fucking clueless. I've been a member here since 2007. It's the same script that plays out over and over again. Lion IRC is pretty damn far from the first. Eventually Lion IRC will either leave or he will start getting smart. And if he chooses the latter we can start having interesting conversations. But until then he will keep getting schooled by atheists on Bible basics.

 

[funinspace]

Nope.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats."
Isaiah 1:11

"I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts."
Amos 5:21-22

"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6

Few things is funnier than a Christian too lazy to read his own sacred text. I guess it isn't all that sacred, or what? Is it sacred suggestions? The truth is of course that the Bible is a collection of religious views from a variety of people. They didn't always agree. The burnt offering issue was one of those.

<tons of positive aroma verses>

I really have no idea why Lion IRC used those verse quotes, as he is generally knowledgeable about his holy book. Anywho, those verses he cited have much to do about Yahweh being pissed at his recalcitrant Hebrews than it being divergent views by differing writers (not that there can't be contradictions within this particular topic, as so many do). I'll just take the Iasiah example as it is probably the clearest. From the NASB Study Bible notes:
"1.2-31: An introductory poem. The prophet indicts Israel for religious infidelity. 2-3: The rhetorical call for attention appeals to heaven and earth to witness the LORD's grievance against his people in the context of a lawsuit concerning Israel's violation of the covenant". Basically, the story line is that Yahweh is mad at his badly behaving children and finds their feeble attempts at hugs and kisses to be offensive while still being bad children.

In all there are about 40 passages about aromas of burnt offerings are pleasing to the LORD. Here is even a vision from Isaiah 6 of the heavenly court:

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

 

[James Brown]

Yep.

"And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering."
Genesis 4:4

"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans."
Genesis 8:20-21

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee."
Exodus 20:24

"Thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD."
Numbers 18:17

Plus numerous chapters in the Talmud detailing exactly how to perform the animal sacrifices, what animals may or may not be sacrificed, which toes of the priests are to be smeared with blood, and so on. Those would be odd instructions indeed given by someone who doesn't desire sacrifices. It would be like a vegetarian telling you how she prefers her steaks to be cooked.

So what are we to make of these contradictory verses? I can think of a few possibilities:

A) God is bi-polar.

B) At first God really liked animal sacrifices, but after some soul-searching, he changed his mind and no longer desires them.

C) Different people have at various times informed of us of "what God wants" inserting their own desires, preferences, and phobias. It's not enough for the author of Isaiah to say, "It's my opinion that your sacrifices are hypocritical." He has to put the words directly in God's mouth, an age-old method of investing one's own ideas with divine authority.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Few things is funnier than a Christian too lazy to read his own sacred text. I guess it isn't all that sacred, or what? Is it sacred suggestions? The truth is of course that the Bible is a collection of religious views from a variety of people. They didn't always agree. The burnt offering issue was one of those.

<tons of positive aroma verses>

I really have no idea why Lion IRC used those verse quotes, as he is generally knowledgeable about his holy book. Anywho, those verses he cited have much to do about Yahweh being pissed at his recalcitrant Hebrews than it being divergent views by differing writers (not that there can't be contradictions within this particular topic, as so many do). I'll just take the Iasiah example as it is probably the clearest. From the NASB Study Bible notes:
"1.2-31: An introductory poem. The prophet indicts Israel for religious infidelity. 2-3: The rhetorical call for attention appeals to heaven and earth to witness the LORD's grievance against his people in the context of a lawsuit concerning Israel's violation of the covenant". Basically, the story line is that Yahweh is mad at his badly behaving children and finds their feeble attempts at hugs and kisses to be offensive while still being bad children.

In all there are about 40 passages about aromas of burnt offerings are pleasing to the LORD. Here is even a vision from Isaiah 6 of the heavenly court:

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

Which of course is evidence that Judaism and Christianity evolved from earlier religions which casts the whole thing about revelation in doubt. Why would God descend upon the world to give us his teachings if only to slightly update earlier ones. If we'd almost already got it right by mere guesswork why not just keep his fat nose out of it and let us get on with it? The simplest explanation if of course that there is no God, never was and that all religious people have just been fantasizing all along, building upon the fantasies of earlier generations.

Yes, I know, I'm captain obvious. The hardest part is always to explain how the hell anybody manages to buy into this theistic nonsense. That's only why I'm restating the bloody obvious.

 

[atrib]

delete

 

[atrib]

Nope.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats."
Isaiah 1:11

"I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts."
Amos 5:21-22

"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6

Few things is funnier than a Christian too lazy to read his own sacred text. I guess it isn't all that sacred, or what? Is it sacred suggestions? The truth is of course that the Bible is a collection of religious views from a variety of people. They didn't always agree. The burnt offering issue was one of those.


Deuteronomy 33:10
Verse Concepts
"They shall teach Your ordinances to Jacob, And Your law to Israel They shall put incense before You, And whole burnt offerings on Your altar.

Psalm 66:13
Verse Concepts
I shall come into Your house with burnt offerings; I shall pay You my vows,

1 Samuel 7:9
Verse Concepts
Samuel took a suckling lamb and offered it for a whole burnt offering to the LORD; and Samuel cried to the LORD for Israel and the LORD answered him.

Psalm 51:19
Verse Concepts
Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Genesis 8:20
Verse Concepts
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Genesis 22:2-8
He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. read more.
Exodus 10:25
But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.

Exodus 18:12
Verse Concepts
Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat a meal with Moses' father-in-law before God.

Exodus 20:24
Verse Concepts
'You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.

Exodus 24:5
Verse Concepts
He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD.

Job 1:5
Verse Concepts
When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.

Leviticus 1:1-17
Then the LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When any man of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of animals from the herd or the flock. 'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer it, a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. read more.
Leviticus 6:8-13
Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Command Aaron and his sons, saying, 'This is the law for the burnt offering: the burnt offering itself shall remain on the hearth on the altar all night until the morning, and the fire on the altar is to be kept burning on it. 'The priest is to put on his linen robe, and he shall put on undergarments next to his flesh; and he shall take up the ashes to which the fire reduces the burnt offering on the altar and place them beside the altar. read more.
Leviticus 7:8
Verse Concepts
'Also the priest who presents any man's burnt offering, that priest shall have for himself the skin of the burnt offering which he has presented.

Malachi 1:8
Verse Concepts
"But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts.

Numbers 28:9-10
'Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

Exodus 29:38-42
"Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two one year old lambs each day, continuously. "The one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb. read more.
Ezra 3:3
Verse Concepts
So they set up the altar on its foundation, for they were terrified because of the peoples of the lands; and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, burnt offerings morning and evening.

Leviticus 8:18-21
Then he presented the ram of the burnt offering, and Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram. Moses slaughtered it and sprinkled the blood around on the altar. When he had cut the ram into its pieces, Moses offered up the head and the pieces and the suet in smoke. read more.
Leviticus 16:3
Verse Concepts
"Aaron shall enter the holy place with this: with a bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

Numbers 28:19
Verse Concepts
'You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect.

Leviticus 23:12
Verse Concepts
'Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD.

Numbers 28:27
Verse Concepts
'You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the LORD: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old;

Numbers 29:2
Verse Concepts
'You shall offer a burnt offering as a soothing aroma to the LORD: one bull, one ram, and seven male lambs one year old without defect;

Numbers 29:13
Verse Concepts
'You shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the LORD: thirteen bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old, which are without defect;

Luke 2:24
Verse Concepts
and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, "A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS."

Exodus 32:6
Verse Concepts
So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

2 Kings 10:25
Verse Concepts
Then it came about, as soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the royal officers, "Go in, kill them; let none come out." And they killed them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the royal officers threw them out, and went to the inner room of the house of Baal.

1 Samuel 15:22
Verse Concepts
Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

Isaiah 1:11-15
"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. read more.
Jeremiah 7:21-22
Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Hosea 6:6
Verse Concepts
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Amos 5:25
Verse Concepts
"Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel?

Micah 6:6-8
With what shall I come to the LORD And bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, With yearling calves? Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, In ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

Mark 12:33-34
AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.

Matthew 9:13
Verse Concepts
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Matthew 12:7
Verse Concepts
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Hebrews 10:5-10
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'" read more.
Hebrews 10:14
Verse Concepts
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Bazinga! Guess Lion needs to read his holy book a few more times.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Bazinga! Guess Lion needs to read his holy book a few more times.

If he did that, he'd probably end up becoming an atheist.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Bazinga! Guess Lion needs to read his holy book a few more times.

If he did that, he'd probably end up becoming an atheist.

No, he'd just read in order to reinforce what he already knows is in there, not to learn anything new.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

To be fair, though, all those verses where God said he liked offerings were meant metaphorically. It's only the ones where he says he doesn't like them which can be taken literally.

 

[DBT]

Even the professional Theologians, the Doctors of Divinity, use cherry picking and quite sophisticated rationalisation to diminish the cruel, vindictive god of war, Yahweh the god of Israel, while promoting the universal God of Love of the new testament....and even then ignoring the underlying vindictive, shallow nature of this deity in terms of selection criteria, punishment, etc. It's quite astonishing in its dishonesty.

 

[another1]

Science books from 1990 are still printed. The theories of today make those books look archaic. Outdated science books aren't to be taken literally, but the creatures tormented to reach the temporary conclusions within those books DID suffer just as much as heretics back in the days of Christian craziness. Thank God that is all out of the way. But yeah... Given enough time, the suffering caused by sciences could rival any of the other insane Religions. It would take a couple thousand years to know for sure - and thx to science we don't have that long. Thank God. But to be fair, God destroys the world all the time. The most recent was by flooding. Future science verses may tell a similar story. This of course doesn't make God any less wicked. It seems like it is all the same stuff moving at different speeds and with different swagger.

 

[Lion IRC]

To be fair, though, all those verses where God said he liked offerings were meant metaphorically. It's only the ones where he says he doesn't like them which can be taken literally.

No - in the beginning, God receieved pious offerings in the spirit in which they were intended. After a time, the offerings became like Papal indulgences - they weren't offered with penitent, humble hearts but with irreverence and self-righteous legalism (or banal apathy).
And God called us out declaring that all these so-called 'offerings' were a sham and a fraud. Moreover, God rightly declared that He didn't need to be 'offered' what already belonged to Him.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

To be fair, though, all those verses where God said he liked offerings were meant metaphorically. It's only the ones where he says he doesn't like them which can be taken literally.

No - in the beginning, God receieved pious offerings in the spirit in which they were intended. After a time, the offerings became like Papal indulgences - they weren't offered with penitent, humble hearts but with irreverence and self-righteous legalism (or banal apathy).
And God called us out declaring that all these so-called 'offerings' were a sham and a fraud. Moreover, God rightly declared that He didn't need to be 'offered' what already belonged to Him.

It wasn't that he accepted them, it was that he demanded them.

If those ancient billy goat herder priests could be admitted to have been mistaken or dishonest about that, how much should any atheist trust anything else in the Bible?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

To be fair, though, all those verses where God said he liked offerings were meant metaphorically. It's only the ones where he says he doesn't like them which can be taken literally.

No - in the beginning, God receieved pious offerings in the spirit in which they were intended. After a time, the offerings became like Papal indulgences - they weren't offered with penitent, humble hearts but with irreverence and self-righteous legalism (or banal apathy).
And God called us out declaring that all these so-called 'offerings' were a sham and a fraud. Moreover, God rightly declared that He didn't need to be 'offered' what already belonged to Him.

That's kind of a waste. Why didn't he call people out before they started doing it then and save everyone a lot of bother? It's kind of pointless to be able to see the future if you're just going to pretend to act surprised when things happen.

 

[Syed]

Soul = Electricity = Battery = Engine of all creatures

Soul = Electricity = Battery = Engine of all creatures



this is my new religious theory

when god made creature with clay then ( GOD ) breath something into clay-dummy and the clay-adam come to live

every living creatures have electricity or soul

soul makes us living creature

when we died our soul no-longer in our dead-body

this should be end to mystery of what is death ?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, that's less a "new" theory than it is a general description of how a soul has been described for the past few thousand years.

 

[Elixir]

Soul = Electricity = Battery = Engine of all creatures

this is my new religious theory

when god made creature with clay then ( GOD ) breath something into clay-dummy and the clay-adam come to live

every living creatures have electricity or soul

soul makes us living creature

when we died our soul no-longer in our dead-body

this should be end to mystery of what is death ?

Actually Syed, "soul" is a perversion of a word that meant "breath".
What you have is not a theory - it's a hypothesis at best, and an un-testable one at that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

this is my new religious theory...this should be end to mystery of what is death ?

No, not an end.

See, we have no reason to believe you.
1) you offer no evidence for this 'theory.'
2) you've been spouting things for 12 years that we KNOW to be wrong.
3) You've never, ever, once retracted anything that was wrong after people who knew what they were talking about spent time explaining things to you.
4) In fact, you've repeated your erroneous statements despite having been exposed to corrections, facts, definitions and IIRC even drawings
5) Historically, all you've done is troll, thus we can conclude that whatever the soul IS, if such a thing exists, it's not a battery. Because you've been wrong so very much more often than you've been right.

 

[bigfield]

I guess my Samsung phone has a soul, too.

It's currently on charge, or as Syed might say, getting a new lease of life.

 

[another1]

Syed I can feel my soul when I lick a 9V battery. Not trying to endanger anyone willing to try, but gently licking the crown at the top of a Duracell... YES. I replaced the fillings in my teeth with nonconductive materials just to get closer to the feeling. Maybe the engine, you could say.

Certain drugs can give the same effect but it is cheaper and somehow more ritualistic to use a fresh from the pack battery. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this to you if this is something you've been meditating on for a minute.

And yes you're correct in my opinion. About every living thing having electricity doing strange things inside. Take the brain for example. What is really going on inside there, with the electricities bouncing around and whatnot. What is electricity to you? How does electricity from the soul light up the brain? I've been wondering what invisible devices make that happen. And why?