I lied to the police, had my wife arrested, saved my family. *Was I morally correct? *You judge

[Harry Bosch]

I married my childhood sweetheart 23 years ago. Close to being my perfect match: she's beautiful, driven, hardworking, easy going, funny, and loves our children. We literally never had a single fight until about 10 years ago.

It started small. She would get stressed easily and worry. I tried to lesson her stress by hiring a housekeeping service and an infrequent nanny. To make a long story short, she had a first mental break down roughly 6 years ago. She self-committed herself to a hospital. She got better, and then returned. Then a pattern would emerge. She'd take her pills, get better, get off the pills, then a year later, and relapse. But she steadfastly refused to ever return to the hospital because she hated it. This made her recovery each year longer and more difficult for the family. Each breakdown was worse the previous. She gradually started losing friends, losing family members, and etc. But she was never violent towards herself or others. Finally, earlier this year, she really went off the deep end. She started to become dangerous with herself. I started to not trust her with the kids (especially our youngest). She falsely accused me of terrible crimes. Spent thousands and thousands of dollars. She moved in with one friend for a few days, until she drove them crazy. Moved in with another, drove them crazy. Moved in with her family for a while, drove them crazy.

She needed help. And I couldn't get it for her. Four times I went with her to get her committed. The doctor, nurses, her mom and dad and I all tried to get her to self-commit, she just refused. I kept trying to have her involuntarily committed, and it kept coming to this: in Washington and most states, you can't a person against their will unless they are a direct threat to themselves or a relative.

Finally, after 15 straight hours at the hospital, in a fit of exhaustion and desperation, I told the doctor that she had stabbed me last week. I had in fact fallen the week before and fell on a nail. It pierced my side requiring three stiches. I lied to the doctor. Filled out the police report. Then they took her away. The doctor, nurses, our daughters, my wife's family, and even the police knew that I was lying. They all accepted that this was the only way that our family could get help.

My wife spent 87 days in the hospital psyche ward. For the first 30 days, she hated me. She filed lawsuits. Wrote letters. Told me and her family that she'd never talk to us. But gradually she started to get better. She was ready to leave by day 66, but decided to stay in to continue to work on her health. By that time our relationship was healed. 6 months later, and everything is well. She's mostly repaired her relationship with her family, her friends, and our daughters. She sees a psychiatrist monthly. She's agreed to monthly blood tests. She takes her pills. But it's an unspoken truth between us that if she ever goes crazy again, that I could easily have her committed.

Was I morally right?
Should it be legal to commit an adult against their will if it is needed to prevent them from becoming homeless?

 

[fast]

When love (good hearted love) is the driving force behind an act that might otherwise seem immoral, then it really doesn't matter if it's technically wrong or an exception to what ordinarily is, for you'll always be a welcome guest to me.

 

[Harry Bosch]

When love (good hearted love) is the driving force behind an act that might otherwise seem immoral, then it really doesn't matter if it's technically wrong or an exception to what ordinarily is, for you'll always be a welcome guest to me.

Well, thank you for that. It's been a tough year. But again, I'm amazed at how difficult it is to get a loved one help when they have a mental disease. It's also incredibly expensive!

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm amazed at how difficult it is to get a loved one help when they have a mental disease.

It's probably a reaction to how easy it used to be to get troublesome family members committed for having undesirable traits.
There's a family legend about our first Mormon member being almost committed for renouncing his family's version of god. Grandpa used to tell it like the old guy was nearly thrown to the lions.
The other side of the family had someone locked away for unspecified health issues which we suspect were homosexual tendencies.

So, the pendulum swings and we have to deal with the legacy. Sounds like you did pretty well. The multiple efforts to work within the system before gaming the system do you credit.

Should it be legal to commit an adult against their will if it is needed to prevent them from becoming homeless?

Probably. I think that as time goes on, we'll become better at gauging exactly what could or should be considered 'harm.'

 

[Horatio Parker]

If you were still unforgiven, would it have been moral? I don't know.

Very tough choice, but it worked out.

The price you pay is the fear she lives with that you'll do it again.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It sounds like you made the least bad out of the possible poor choices. She needed the help and you did what you had to so that she'd get it.

I hope that things continue to go well for her.

 

[gmbteach]

If you were still unforgiven, would it have been moral? I don't know.

Very tough choice, but it worked out.

The price you pay is the fear she lives with that you'll do it again.

That 'fear' could encourage her to continue to take her meds when she needs to. To me, her mental health is no less, nor more dangerous, to her and her family than say a heart condition. She needs the meds to stay well, just as someone with a heart condition or diabetes, needs regular medications to stay well. If they don't take their meds, they end up in hospital. Why should it be different for someone with mental illness?

Harry, well done on taking the action that you did. It wasn't easy, I can tell that by what you wrote, but you did it for all the right reasons. I wouldn't be afraid of her 'fearing' you as I am sure she knows you did it out of love and concern for her, yourself and your family.

Good luck!

 

[Horatio Parker]

If you were still unforgiven, would it have been moral? I don't know.

Very tough choice, but it worked out.

The price you pay is the fear she lives with that you'll do it again.

That 'fear' could encourage her to continue to take her meds when she needs to. To me, her mental health is no less, nor more dangerous, to her and her family than say a heart condition. She needs the meds to stay well, just as someone with a heart condition or diabetes, needs regular medications to stay well. If they don't take their meds, they end up in hospital. Why should it be different for someone with mental illness?

Agreed, but still, wouldn't you rather your partner was motivated by something other than fear? It would weigh on me, that's why I said what I did. Necessary, but less than ideal. In short, a price to be paid.

 

[gmbteach]

That 'fear' could encourage her to continue to take her meds when she needs to. To me, her mental health is no less, nor more dangerous, to her and her family than say a heart condition. She needs the meds to stay well, just as someone with a heart condition or diabetes, needs regular medications to stay well. If they don't take their meds, they end up in hospital. Why should it be different for someone with mental illness?

Agreed, but still, wouldn't you rather your partner was motivated by something other than fear? It would weigh on me, that's why I said what I did. Necessary, but less than ideal. In short, a price to be paid.

If I was 'afraid' of another heart attack, or a 'hypo' I would be pretty motivated to take my meds - that's for sure. How is this different?

I take my anti-depressants daily because I know how bad I feel without them and I am afraid of another breakdown. That motivates me.

If I was not taking my meds than I would sincerely hope that my husband would take matters into his own hands to get me the help I needed. And if he did have me committed, then I would feel much better knowing that should I go downhill, someone is there to watch out for me.

It's a matter of perspective.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yes, you did the right thing.

I did the same thing two years ago with a family member. I did not lie about an injury, rather I lied to that person when I told them that if they self commit to this other hospital they will get released. They did not get released of course, and while there received the same rehabilitation you describe. Today that person is well enough and not presently a threat to anyone.

I never thought about what might happen should the illness return, the person having learned the lesson that I lied before. I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it, outsmart him again I hope.

I do know that when a person is in that state all the talk in the world is useless. The literature that says otherwise is just full of shit. Something has to happen involving courts and law enforcement, but not serious enough that it involves death or imprisonment. Then you have leverage, a desperate person casting about for a solution to their dilemma, and you have to take advantage of that situation to get them help.

So you did good.

 

[DBT]

The best of a bad set of options.

 

[Bronzeage]

You do what you have to do, but in addition to lying to the police, you also lied to the Doctors. They had a patient they believed to be violent, and wrote off her denials as more symptoms of her mental illness. Let's hope that did not lead to inappropriate treatment.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You do what you have to do, but in addition to lying to the police, you also lied to the Doctors. They had a patient they believed to be violent, and wrote off her denials as more symptoms of her mental illness. Let's hope that did not lead to inappropriate treatment.

Oh no. They knew exactly what was going on. She has been fully diagnosed. The doctors and nurses had been trying to get her to voluntarily commit. They kinda lead me to my action by continuously stating that she couldn't be committed against her will unless she had done something directly violent.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Agreed, but still, wouldn't you rather your partner was motivated by something other than fear? It would weigh on me, that's why I said what I did. Necessary, but less than ideal. In short, a price to be paid.

If I was 'afraid' of another heart attack, or a 'hypo' I would be pretty motivated to take my meds - that's for sure. How is this different?

I take my anti-depressants daily because I know how bad I feel without them and I am afraid of another breakdown. That motivates me.

If I was not taking my meds than I would sincerely hope that my husband would take matters into his own hands to get me the help I needed. And if he did have me committed, then I would feel much better knowing that should I go downhill, someone is there to watch out for me.

It's a matter of perspective.

How is this different? Arrest, jail, and involuntary committal all on the basis of a lie, that's what makes it different!

He did the right thing. Obviously he's conflicted. And I think that's the appropriate feeling. Living with his actions is a better option than having done nothing. But it's still a cost.

 

[thebeave]

This is one of those interesting moral dilemmas that goes to show that there are a lot of grey areas in life. It's why I despise these simpleton, black-and-white moral imperatives dictated to us by the Bible ("Thou shalt not <fill in the blank>") and other "moral authorities", like teachers, pastors and even your parents. Sometimes lying, cheating, stealing or even killing are necessary for the greater good. I think you did the right thing under the circumstances.

 

[Bronzeage]

You do what you have to do, but in addition to lying to the police, you also lied to the Doctors. They had a patient they believed to be violent, and wrote off her denials as more symptoms of her mental illness. Let's hope that did not lead to inappropriate treatment.

Oh no. They knew exactly what was going on. She has been fully diagnosed. The doctors and nurses had been trying to get her to voluntarily commit. They kinda lead me to my action by continuously stating that she couldn't be committed against her will unless she had done something directly violent.

So, now we have a criminal conspiracy to falsely imprison a person. Even though you had the best intentions, it is still a felony.

It probably won't be a problem, but you were able to get away with this only because those in authority cooperated. If this case followed the usual pattern, the only person in jeopardy is you, since your signature on the affidavits put events in motion. The police and the medical people were acting on good faith and did their duty under the law.

It was a noble sacrifice on your part, but in the future, your wife may decide to seek criminal charges against you.

 

[rousseau]

No, what you did wasn't morally wrong. Laws and Rules are guidelines to keep the world stable, but they aren't always dictums that need to be followed for the best result.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What you did was absolutely in the best interests and intentions of all parties involved. Fuck the moral umpires who have not lived what you are have lived through and will never be able to comprehend or appreciate one second of your experience.

 

[another1]

I married my childhood sweetheart 23 years ago. Close to being my perfect match: she's beautiful, driven, hardworking, easy going, funny, and loves our children. We literally never had a single fight until about 10 years ago.

It started small. She would get stressed easily and worry. I tried to lesson her stress by hiring a housekeeping service and an infrequent nanny. To make a long story short, she had a first mental break down roughly 6 years ago. She self-committed herself to a hospital. She got better, and then returned. Then a pattern would emerge. She'd take her pills, get better, get off the pills, then a year later, and relapse. But she steadfastly refused to ever return to the hospital because she hated it. This made her recovery each year longer and more difficult for the family. Each breakdown was worse the previous. She gradually started losing friends, losing family members, and etc. But she was never violent towards herself or others. Finally, earlier this year, she really went off the deep end. She started to become dangerous with herself. I started to not trust her with the kids (especially our youngest). She falsely accused me of terrible crimes. Spent thousands and thousands of dollars. She moved in with one friend for a few days, until she drove them crazy. Moved in with another, drove them crazy. Moved in with her family for a while, drove them crazy.

She needed help. And I couldn't get it for her. Four times I went with her to get her committed. The doctor, nurses, her mom and dad and I all tried to get her to self-commit, she just refused. I kept trying to have her involuntarily committed, and it kept coming to this: in Washington and most states, you can't a person against their will unless they are a direct threat to themselves or a relative.

Finally, after 15 straight hours at the hospital, in a fit of exhaustion and desperation, I told the doctor that she had stabbed me last week. I had in fact fallen the week before and fell on a nail. It pierced my side requiring three stiches. I lied to the doctor. Filled out the police report. Then they took her away. The doctor, nurses, our daughters, my wife's family, and even the police knew that I was lying. They all accepted that this was the only way that our family could get help.

My wife spent 87 days in the hospital psyche ward. For the first 30 days, she hated me. She filed lawsuits. Wrote letters. Told me and her family that she'd never talk to us. But gradually she started to get better. She was ready to leave by day 66, but decided to stay in to continue to work on her health. By that time our relationship was healed. 6 months later, and everything is well. She's mostly repaired her relationship with her family, her friends, and our daughters. She sees a psychiatrist monthly. She's agreed to monthly blood tests. She takes her pills. But it's an unspoken truth between us that if she ever goes crazy again, that I could easily have her committed.

Was I morally right?
Should it be legal to commit an adult against their will if it is needed to prevent them from becoming homeless?

If there were no kids involved I would say you did the wrong thing.

She was never violent towards herself or others you said. What was it, crying a lot and refusing to clean? You never described what she was doing so crazy. Sorry for asking, I know it is personal. It is a thread you made so I'll take the chance.

"She falsely accused me of terrible crimes and pent thousands and thousands of dollars". Did she accuse you of cheating or something? And what was up with spending thousands of dollars? Was she allowed to spend that much? Just wondering if you could be more detailed in that department.

But yeah... lie, even kill to keep your kids safe. I'd be all over you if it not for the kids part. Violently mentally ill people are usually medicated differently than the morbidly depressed. May want to tell them it was more of a poke than a stab, just to save her a few pokes. She'll probably get a total brainscan and everything on menu, now that they think she is stabbshly psychotic. $$$$$ down the drain man. A simple tweak in her medication could have worked but I wasn't there and I don't know so good luck bud.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I married my childhood sweetheart 23 years ago. Close to being my perfect match: she's beautiful, driven, hardworking, easy going, funny, and loves our children. We literally never had a single fight until about 10 years ago.

It started small. She would get stressed easily and worry. I tried to lesson her stress by hiring a housekeeping service and an infrequent nanny. To make a long story short, she had a first mental break down roughly 6 years ago. She self-committed herself to a hospital. She got better, and then returned. Then a pattern would emerge. She'd take her pills, get better, get off the pills, then a year later, and relapse. But she steadfastly refused to ever return to the hospital because she hated it. This made her recovery each year longer and more difficult for the family. Each breakdown was worse the previous. She gradually started losing friends, losing family members, and etc. But she was never violent towards herself or others. Finally, earlier this year, she really went off the deep end. She started to become dangerous with herself. I started to not trust her with the kids (especially our youngest). She falsely accused me of terrible crimes. Spent thousands and thousands of dollars. She moved in with one friend for a few days, until she drove them crazy. Moved in with another, drove them crazy. Moved in with her family for a while, drove them crazy.

She needed help. And I couldn't get it for her. Four times I went with her to get her committed. The doctor, nurses, her mom and dad and I all tried to get her to self-commit, she just refused. I kept trying to have her involuntarily committed, and it kept coming to this: in Washington and most states, you can't a person against their will unless they are a direct threat to themselves or a relative.

Finally, after 15 straight hours at the hospital, in a fit of exhaustion and desperation, I told the doctor that she had stabbed me last week. I had in fact fallen the week before and fell on a nail. It pierced my side requiring three stiches. I lied to the doctor. Filled out the police report. Then they took her away. The doctor, nurses, our daughters, my wife's family, and even the police knew that I was lying. They all accepted that this was the only way that our family could get help.

My wife spent 87 days in the hospital psyche ward. For the first 30 days, she hated me. She filed lawsuits. Wrote letters. Told me and her family that she'd never talk to us. But gradually she started to get better. She was ready to leave by day 66, but decided to stay in to continue to work on her health. By that time our relationship was healed. 6 months later, and everything is well. She's mostly repaired her relationship with her family, her friends, and our daughters. She sees a psychiatrist monthly. She's agreed to monthly blood tests. She takes her pills. But it's an unspoken truth between us that if she ever goes crazy again, that I could easily have her committed.

Was I morally right?
Should it be legal to commit an adult against their will if it is needed to prevent them from becoming homeless?

If there were no kids involved I would say you did the wrong thing.

She was never violent towards herself or others you said. What was it, crying a lot and refusing to clean? You never described what she was doing so crazy. Sorry for asking, I know it is personal. It is a thread you made so I'll take the chance.

"She falsely accused me of terrible crimes and pent thousands and thousands of dollars". Did she accuse you of cheating or something? And what was up with spending thousands of dollars? Was she allowed to spend that much? Just wondering if you could be more detailed in that department.

But yeah... lie, even kill to keep your kids safe. I'd be all over you if it not for the kids part. Violently mentally ill people are usually medicated differently than the morbidly depressed. May want to tell them it was more of a poke than a stab, just to save her a few pokes. She'll probably get a total brainscan and everything on menu, now that they think she is stabbshly psychotic. $$$$$ down the drain man. A simple tweak in her medication could have worked but I wasn't there and I don't know so good luck bud.

In the beginning, she believed that I was trying to murder her and our kids. She initially thought I was trying to poison them. The conspiracy grew and grew from there in her mind. It got to the point that she'd pull our kids out of school every day and go to the emergency room and have them all tested. There's far more. She also started thinking that the kids were in grave danger if they were in our house. So she'd arrange to have them staying at friends house, grandma's house, and etc. It was scary for my younger kids. It got to the point where her family and the authorities (police and hospital staff) believed that she shouldn't be alone with the kids. Well, that put me in a bad spot. I was the only one who could put up with her. And I wanted my kids back. And I was tired of living with a crazy person. I was prepared to leave her with our kids. I was going to let her stay in our house. But there's no way that she could take care of herself. I had my attorney draft up the docs (her own sister!). We were moving out when she finally completely broke down and agreed to self commit to the hospital. Drove her to the hospital. Things were going great. She was finally going to get some help. But it takes time to find a spot in the psyche ward. Her mom came down and was encouraging her to commit. We all were. The doctors and nurses were gently encouraging her to keep it up. Then all of a sudden, at the six hour mark, she changed her mind again. Wanted to go home. Everyone tried to get her to change her mind again for several hours. Finally, I told the doctor what he needed to hear to commit her, then I filled out the paper work for the police.

Again, if I hadn't done the above, she would be homeless today. She might not have been directly violent. But in her crazy state, she was totally destroying herself and our family.