So when does it stop being 'PC' and start being 'Common Decency'

[J842P]

But that is *exactly the result* of the current strain of political correctness. First, they do it because the left, and particularly the left on college campuses, has completely jumped the shark on multiple issues. It is particularly strong in youth culture, and that is part of the reason why this sort of trolling is more common among the youth. It has become downright reality-denying and stifling to the point of absurdity, in many cases. Just try to discuss issues regarding gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion etc. with college students these days. They rarely discuss anything of substance, and rather, they just pat each other on the back for holding virtuous stances. I blame the humanities and what passes for scholarship nowadays. It is invariable the sheep that go into grad school these days, and likely has been that way for some time.

On what do you base this view?

My experiences being a student on several different college campuses over the last 10 years or so. I have many friends in the humanities and frequently discuss these subjects. I am not the only person talking about this either, so don't feign ignorance. It is particularly egregious at elite institutions.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

This is a total strawman. No one is arguing that they should be allowed to use slurs without reproach. But many things have become taboo to even talk about. For example, you will get excoriated for discussing possible innate differences between men and women -- and in some circles, the idea that men and women even exist! This is an example of political correctness.

I don't think it is. I don't even think people who PREFER to be politically correct would agree with this. Current political discourse is positively full of people who are easily triggered and even more easily offended by a lack of serious consideration for their pet cause of the day, but none of them use the term "political correctness" to describe the way they want others to behave. That, again, is something right wingers continue to assert on their behalf, and in most such cases they are basically talking to themselves.

PC as a term of art is actually pretty limited: it's a set of terms/slurs/language it would be impolite or disrespectful to use and a set of subjects it would be insensitive to discuss in certain contexts. So the statement "I love kikes, they have such a vibrant and ancient culture" would be politically incorrect; "I am, for whatever reason, wary of Jews and the amount of control they have over U.S. financial systems" is as well, for different reasons.

"Yes, I know you consider yourself 'genderfluid,' but I'm asking you if you are GENETICALLY male or female." Not so much. tumblr kids get their back up when normal people don't take their hippy sexuality seriously, but it doesn't veer off into the realm of political correctness until and unless you actually point out that they are a bunch of poorly-informed teenagers practicing the latest fad in hippy sexuality.

I also draw your attention that just because something is politically incorrect doesn't make it FACTUALLY incorrect. See my response to skeptical: you could make a factual case that segregation in schools is good for kids (it isn't, but suppose you COULD). The political landscape makes this a dangerous position to adopt, whether the facts are on your side or not.

 

[bilby]

The right to excoriate those with whom you disagree is a subset of the right to freedom of speech.

Now if people were being incarcerated, fined or physically assaulted by the authorities, that would be unacceptable. But they are not - so I'm afraid that if you care about freedom of speech, you will just have to put up with people using it to say nasty things about your freely made speech.

That's how it works. Unless you don't support freedom of speech, in which case the authorities have the right to not only tell you to shut up, but to make you do so.

Again, for the hard of thinking: Getting offended about people telling you that your speech is offensive, is hypocrisy.

This isn't rocket surgery.

You seem to replying to some other post, and are mistakenly quoting mine. I never said people don't have the right to excoriate those they disagree with. I merely stated that you are misrepresenting the argument against political correctness, which you merely continue to do here.

Look, I get it. You've probably been outside of academia for some time now, and I'm not sure how much exposure you've had to American colleges. But things have changed drastically in the last 10 or so years. I've witnessed it first hand. For example, do you think it is tantamount to hate speech when you refuse to use gender-neutral pronouns like "ze and hir"? Because that is the position of some of the people on campus nowadays. That it is *violence* to use she and he. Take a look at what is happening in Canada. It is creeping closer and closer to this by the day. The other disturbing trend is for colleges to ban conservative speakers. I say this as someone on the far left of the spectrum who sees this as detrimental to the cause.

So what? Are you suggesting that these idiots don't have the right to be wrong? Or that they should be prevented from expressing their incorrect and rather stupid ideas? Or that colleges are required to give a platform to anyone who demands to speak there?

None of these things appear to me to be true.

Students and student organizations have always made stupid demands of this kind; And they have always been laughed at. So my advice is to laugh at them and move on with life. American colleges are not the sum of human endeavour, nor are they particularly important in the big scheme of things.

 

[laughing dog]

On what do you base this view?

My experiences being a student on several different college campuses over the last 10 years or so. I have many friends in the humanities and frequently discuss these subjects. I am not the only person talking about this either, so don't feign ignorance. It is particularly egregious at elite institutions.

I cannot speak about elite institutions, but from my experience at definitely non-elite institutions, your characterization does not fit what I see. In some ways, young people today are more open and willing to discuss the very issues you mention. And they seem no more clueless or immature than students 10 or 20 or 30 years ago to me.

 

[Trausti]

Life imitates art. It was funny then; now it's just scary.

 

[laughing dog]

Life imitates art. It was funny then; now it's just scary.

What is even scarier is that someone finds that scary or representative of reality today.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Students and student organizations have always made stupid demands of this kind; And they have always been laughed at. So my advice is to laugh at them and move on with life.

So there is the difference then. They are no longer being laughed at. They are being listened to. People are being fired because of them. People who some other students have invited to speak on campus are being disinvited because of them. I agree with you that they need to be stood up to and laughed at.

American colleges are not the sum of human endeavour, nor are they particularly important in the big scheme of things.

It would be nice if that were true, but this has spilled beyond colleges. Generation snowflake has gotten to the point that events like Trump getting elected completely shook them to the core and they resorted to violence in the streets - over a democratic election result that nobody I know of has contested the veracity of. Men accused of rape are presumed guilty and must prove themselves innocent. BLM interrupts gay pride parades and holds up traffic causing civil disturbances and even violence. The crybullying has truly gotten out of hand, and that is a big reason why we saw Trump happen. People are sick of catering to the narcisism of the snowflakes demanding that everybody think as they do lest they be racist/sexist/whateverist.

Seriously, when it gets to the point where true liberals are alarmed by the regressive left jumping the shark, crying wolf and causing total sensitivity fatigue, and leading many to no longer take legitimate social issues seriously, you've got a real problem. You could seriously set liberalism back decades. With Trump coming into office, perhaps you already have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkhUivqzWv0 <-- Great George Carlin clip on Political Correctness that every snowflake needs to watch.

 

[Trausti]

Life imitates art. It was funny then; now it's just scary.

What is even scarier is that someone finds that scary or representative of reality today.

Talking down to someone because that person is a *white male*.

Blaming the patriarchy.

White flagellant cowering for his guilt.

Abelism, sexism, racism, language control, etc. The only thing they missed were the 100+ new gender pronouns.

 

[repoman]

What is even more scary is that this stuff is distracting (I am very guilty) us from policy issues, like global warming, estate taxes and so on.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What is even more scary is that this stuff is distracting (I am very guilty) us from policy issues, like global warming, estate taxes and so on.

Good point.

Reminds me of the American feminists who freak out over hilariously stupid shit and insist on calling themselves victims, while not expressing any concern whatsoever about women in the middle east and elsewhere who are truly oppressed and could use their support.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

This is a total strawman. No one is arguing that they should be allowed to use slurs without reproach.

One person did, but I think he is not representative of any larger group.

 

[thebeave]

Lots of real whiny, sourpuss white guys in this thread. Buck up, fellas. MTV is here to help you get back on track for 2017. Enjoy!



Reminder: This is just for the white guys. Black guys, Mexican guys, Vietnamese guys, etc don't have to do anything different, per MTV.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Reminder: This is just for the white guys. Black guys, Mexican guys, Vietnamese guys, etc don't have to do anything different, per MTV.

Whew! Good to know!

 

[Trausti]

 

[Arctish]

Why does Thomas Sowell think that nowadays, believing everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards would get someone labeled a racist?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why does Thomas Sowell think that nowadays, believing everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards would get someone labeled a racist?

Because it often does today? I do recall being called a radical liberal for having that opinion 30 years ago, and I have been called a racist for having it today.

 

[Arctish]

Why does Thomas Sowell think that nowadays, believing everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards would get someone labeled a racist?

Because it often does today? I do recall being called a radical liberal for having that opinion 30 years ago, and I have been called a racist for having it today.

"Often"? I've never seen it or experienced it, and I've been a liberal since the 1960s.

The closest I've come to that sort of thing was a few vague accusations that I don't like Jews because I don't think they should be held to a different standard than everyone else in the world. But that was just rhetoric from a few people who have a really hard time thinking of Palestinians as the equal of Israelis.

Is there a link somewhere to Mr. Sowell's comment in context? I'd like to see him expand on his point and perhaps cite instances of this accusation being leveled in all seriousness. Right now his statement looks like a rather silly bit of hyperbole, probably because the quote was mined.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because it often does today? I do recall being called a radical liberal for having that opinion 30 years ago, and I have been called a racist for having it today.

"Often"? I've never seen it or experienced it, and I've been a liberal since the 1960s.

The closest I've come to that sort of thing was a few vague accusations that I don't like Jews because I don't think they should be held to a different standard than everyone else in the world. But that was just rhetoric from a few people who have a really hard time thinking of Palestinians as the equal of Israelis.

Is there a link somewhere to Mr. Sowell's comment in context? I'd like to see him expand on his point and perhaps cite instances of this accusation being leveled in all seriousness. Right now his statement looks like a rather silly bit of hyperbole, probably because the quote was mined.

I think he means radical in the good way. 60 years ago blacks weren't allowed to use the same drinking fountains as whites in America. Or use the same restaurants and so on. I think he also means liberal in a good way.

Thomas Sowell is not white. He is black. I think that may be relevant. He is now a conservative. But didn't use to be. He used to be very left indeed. He just thinks that the war on racism is won now. So we can stop fighting it. For example, he is against affirmative action. He argues that affirmative action at this point will only increase racism. It used to be good. Now it is bad.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why does Thomas Sowell think that nowadays, believing everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards would get someone labeled a racist?

Because it often does today? I do recall being called a radical liberal for having that opinion 30 years ago, and I have been called a racist for having it today.

"Often"? I've never seen it or experienced it, and I've been a liberal since the 1960s. ...

Are you seriously asking for explanations, or are you feigning confusion to make some political point?

In case you're serious, the fact that you've never experienced what Sowell describes is not evidence against Sowell's claim, because you are not one of the people Sowell is talking about. You've written posts defending affirmative action. Sowell would describe people with your views as "believing black people should should play by different rules and be judged by lower standards". So of course the sort of folks who label those who object to racial discrimination against people of all races "racists" do not choose you as a target for their invective.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why does Thomas Sowell think that nowadays, believing everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards would get someone labeled a racist?

Because it often does today? I do recall being called a radical liberal for having that opinion 30 years ago, and I have been called a racist for having it today.

"Often"? I've never seen it or experienced it, and I've been a liberal since the 1960s. ...

Are you seriously asking for explanations, or are you feigning confusion to make some political point?

In case you're serious, the fact that you've never experienced what Sowell describes is not evidence against Sowell's claim, because you are not one of the people Sowell is talking about. You've written posts defending affirmative action. Sowell would describe people with your views as "believing black people should should play by different rules and be judged by lower standards". So of course the sort of folks who label those who object to racial discrimination against people of all races "racists" do not choose you as a target for their invective.

BTW. South Africa have been experimenting with affirmative action since the end of apartheid. They're the ones who have gone the farthest with it. I think it's hard to make an argument that it's been a success in any shape or form. At best it's been worthless. At worst it's been a disaster for the economy. Just google it. Loads have been written on it.

Affirmative action seems to be good initially, right after racist laws have been abolished. But after that it seems to be counter productive.