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Betsy DeVos and School Vouchers

SLD

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OK. I confess to not knowing much about this issue but am extremely skeptical. The issue came up on another discussion site with someone who is actually a good friend of DeVos. Of course he's a fellow traveler of hers.

But it seems to me that the issue is nothing but a tax break for the uber wealthy to send their kids to private schools. Poor people do not need a tax break as they likely pay little in taxes to begin with and likely can't afford the tuition regardless of tax breaks.

It also smacks of the religious right attempts to destroy public schools since they teach evolution and other godless philosophies.

Other thoughts?

SLD
 
This author seemed to think vouchers were a good idea back in 2003. Thankfully, this author is immune to politics.

C2eYj4DWIAAkE2_.jpg
 
This author seemed to think vouchers were a good idea back in 2003. Thankfully, this author is immune to politics.

C2eYj4DWIAAkE2_.jpg

How hopelessly naive.

Whenever you introduce a for-profit element to a service, you open that service up to corruption and corner cutting. Money that would have gone to the education, is instead used to line the pockets of the business owner, who in turn provides a lesser service.

You're paying more for a weaker, less consistent service in an industry that is notoriously unregulated.
 
How hopelessly naive.

Whenever you introduce a for-profit element to a service, you open that service up to corruption and corner cutting. Money that would have gone to the education, is instead used to line the pockets of the business owner, who in turn provides a lesser service.

You think Fauxcahontas is "hopelessly naive"? Stop with the sexism, will ya?
 
How hopelessly naive.

Whenever you introduce a for-profit element to a service, you open that service up to corruption and corner cutting. Money that would have gone to the education, is instead used to line the pockets of the business owner, who in turn provides a lesser service.

You think Fauxcahontas is "hopelessly naive"? Stop with the sexism, will ya?

I don't know who that is or why it matters. I am going by what is written and not by who wrote it.

Also I thought the right was against government subsidies for businesses. Y'know the whole 'free enterprise' shpeal, where the government keeps its mitts out of other people's lives?

We should also acknowledge how this is yet another tax break for the renters at the expense of the rentees, assuming of course that property taxes go down at all and that the gov doesn't just use the money for some other purpose.
 
You think Fauxcahontas is "hopelessly naive"? Stop with the sexism, will ya?

I don't know who that is or why it matters. I am going by what is written and not by who wrote it.

Also I thought the right was against government subsidies for businesses. Y'know the whole 'free enterprise' shpeal, where the government keeps its mitts out of other people's lives?

We should also acknowledge how this is yet another tax break for the renters at the expense of the rentees, assuming of course that property taxes go down at all and that the gov doesn't just use the money for some other purpose.

It's not really about government subsidies for business. Most charter schools are non-profit. It's about parental choice for a child's education. There's little basis to assert that public schools are better than charter schools. After all, the return on investment with public schools is piss poor.

C3CkyUYXUAIk_5n.jpg
 
This author seemed to think vouchers were a good idea back in 2003. Thankfully, this author is immune to politics.

C2eYj4DWIAAkE2_.jpg
Vouchers and charter schools are great ideas if the intent is to educate the children (particularly in specialized areas) not make a profit.

What Devos wants is to profitize education, not expand access to it.
 
I don't know who that is or why it matters. I am going by what is written and not by who wrote it.

Also I thought the right was against government subsidies for businesses. Y'know the whole 'free enterprise' shpeal, where the government keeps its mitts out of other people's lives?

We should also acknowledge how this is yet another tax break for the renters at the expense of the rentees, assuming of course that property taxes go down at all and that the gov doesn't just use the money for some other purpose.

It's not really about government subsidies for business. Most charter schools are non-profit. It's about parental choice for a child's education. There's little basis to assert that public schools are better than charter schools. After all, the return on investment with public schools is piss poor.

C3CkyUYXUAIk_5n.jpg

Charter schools ARE public schools. People would not get vouchers for them because they are free. There is a selection process though in theory they are open to anyone. Selection process can be based on location, grades, skill set in certain areas, etc. I went to a magnet high school. It was great, but it has nothing to do with this thread except that in academic competitions we beat the best private schools.
 
OK. I confess to not knowing much about this issue but am extremely skeptical. The issue came up on another discussion site with someone who is actually a good friend of DeVos. Of course he's a fellow traveler of hers.

But it seems to me that the issue is nothing but a tax break for the uber wealthy to send their kids to private schools. Poor people do not need a tax break as they likely pay little in taxes to begin with and likely can't afford the tuition regardless of tax breaks.

It also smacks of the religious right attempts to destroy public schools since they teach evolution and other godless philosophies.

Other thoughts?

SLD

You are correct on both counts - at least the way that Betty DeVos and the Republicans want to play it.
 
It also smacks of the religious right's attempts to destroy public schools since they teach evolution and other godless philosophies. period.


SLD


FTFY.
 
Charter schools ARE public schools. People would not get vouchers for them because they are free. There is a selection process though in theory they are open to anyone. Selection process can be based on location, grades, skill set in certain areas, etc. I went to a magnet high school. It was great, but it has nothing to do with this thread except that in academic competitions we beat the best private schools.

You are correct, though (at least in Florida) there is also a difference between magnet schools and charter schools. Magnet schools are regular public schools schools that have been redesigned, either in whole or part, around a specialized curriculum - arts, science, international studies, etc. And you are correct - the academic outcomes usually exceed that of private schools.

I think there are two reasons for this. First, as you noted, the magnet programs are competitive to get in to. Unlike most private schools, parents can't buy their way in - the student is accepted on merit. The second reason, in my opinion, is that the teachers and administration are still held to the educational levels of a public school, and have the benefit of a union to keep working conditions tolerable.

Private schools are only as good as the for-profit model they choose to operate by. Private schools can often be the best of the best, or it can be Trump U at the lower grade levels. They are also unconstrained by teacher's unions, so those teachers are often paid less and have less training/experience/credentials. Charter schools are private schools taking public money.

SLD is 100% correct that the Republican version of "school vouchers" is really a means for the religious right to get public funds for their religious schools. In Florida, almost 70% of the students who got vouchers in 2015 used them for private religious schools. And as Elizabeth Warren points out in the excerpt Trausti tried (and failed) to play "gotcha" with, the Republican-backed voucher programs don't really help students of lower income people because it doesn't allow for true school choice. Because it is a "tax credit" system rather than a true voucher system, it doesn't really help the neediest students, so they end up being left behind in a failing school that now has even fewer resources.

A true voucher program, such as the one Elizabeth Warren suggests, would still allow parents to choose religious schools unfortunately but would otherwise be more equitable. Florida currently spends $7,105 per student (one of the lowest in the country). Those funds, however, are not currently distributed dollar for dollar to each of the schools in a district or throughout the state. Wealthier neighborhoods pay higher property taxes, and thus get a larger budget for their neighborhood schools. Palm Beach County spends $9,179 per student, while Broward County spends $8,117 and Miami-Dade spends $8,725. Palm Beach County is some of the most expensive real estate in the state. And within each county, a similar disparity plays out between the wealthier neighborhoods vs poorer ones.

Warren's idea is to have the money split equally between the students, and have it follow the student but paid directly to the school. As such, parents would be able to have their children attend neighborhood schools because those schools would be getting the same funding per student as the wealthy neighborhoods. Likewise, parents could choose to have their children attend schools closer to their work if that is more convenient.
 
This author seemed to think vouchers were a good idea back in 2003. Thankfully, this author is immune to politics.

C2eYj4DWIAAkE2_.jpg

How hopelessly naive.

Whenever you introduce a for-profit element to a service, you open that service up to corruption and corner cutting. Money that would have gone to the education, is instead used to line the pockets of the business owner, who in turn provides a lesser service.

You're paying more for a weaker, less consistent service in an industry that is notoriously unregulated.

Non-profits can still be dirty.
 

Cato? Look with great skepticism at their stuff.

This is an example of deceptive data.

1) The graph should not be based at 0%

2) Population growth? It only says inflation corrected.

3) How much of that "education" budget is actually special ed?
 

Cato? Look with great skepticism at their stuff.

This is an example of deceptive data.

1) The graph should not be based at 0%

2) Population growth? It only says inflation corrected.

3) How much of that "education" budget is actually special ed?
Okay, so if we double our funding, CATO thinks the scores in the SAT math test should go from 800 to 1600?
 
Cato? Look with great skepticism at their stuff.

This is an example of deceptive data.

1) The graph should not be based at 0%

2) Population growth? It only says inflation corrected.

3) How much of that "education" budget is actually special ed?
Okay, so if we double our funding, CATO thinks the scores in the SAT math test should go from 800 to 1600?

This looks to my untrained eye like total bullshit. The X axis indicates that "the" cost in 2012 was ~ 190% - OF WHAT? Is that per student, for ALL students, or what? Meanwhile all the test scores hover around zero. So, the graph seems to indicate that by 2012 we were paying 190% of ... something???? ... to enable students to learn ZERO reading, math or science.

I think one of the products of just such a system must have put that together.
 
I don't know who that is or why it matters. I am going by what is written and not by who wrote it.

Also I thought the right was against government subsidies for businesses. Y'know the whole 'free enterprise' shpeal, where the government keeps its mitts out of other people's lives?

We should also acknowledge how this is yet another tax break for the renters at the expense of the rentees, assuming of course that property taxes go down at all and that the gov doesn't just use the money for some other purpose.

It's not really about government subsidies for business. Most charter schools are non-profit. It's about parental choice for a child's education. There's little basis to assert that public schools are better than charter schools. After all, the return on investment with public schools is piss poor.

C3CkyUYXUAIk_5n.jpg

So this graph says we only doubled the cost of operating schools over 42 years?

This means we are more efficient at educating our children.
 
Meh delete. Overly antagonistic.
 
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It's not really about government subsidies for business. Most charter schools are non-profit. It's about parental choice for a child's education. There's little basis to assert that public schools are better than charter schools. After all, the return on investment with public schools is piss poor.

C3CkyUYXUAIk_5n.jpg

So this graph says we only doubled the cost of operating schools over 42 years?

This means we are more efficient at educating our children.
Yeah, how could the cost go up 300%, but the graph only shows under 200%, and why is the early part of the blue line dashed? And it is odd how the total cost seems to be very close to linear. Several presidencies and no real changes in the slope of the line. I'm starting to think CATO is a conservative mouth piece bullshit artist collective.
 
Yeah, how could the cost go up 300%, but the graph only shows under 200%, and why is the early part of the blue line dashed? And it is odd how the total cost seems to be very close to linear. Several presidencies and no real changes in the slope of the line. I'm starting to think CATO is a conservative mouth piece bullshit artist collective.

It's percent growth versus baseline.

I went to public schools and I could figure that one out.
 
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