Automation and future human occupations

[beero1000]

I think this entire debate hinges on the question of whether people are just really complicated biological machines. If the answer is yes, then there is no reason to deny that a sufficiently advanced robot could theoretically perform any task that a human can.

Talking about 'humanity' as part of the action is a philosophical argument on whether or not true AI should be considered people, not whether or not the job can be automated.

 

[bilby]

I think this entire debate hinges on the question of whether people are just really complicated biological machines. If the answer is yes, then there is no reason to deny that a sufficiently advanced robot could theoretically perform any task that a human can.

Talking about 'humanity' as part of the action is a philosophical argument on whether or not true AI should be considered people, not whether or not the job can be automated.

I agree.

And I think that there's nothing 'special' about humanity that couldn't be reproduced by a sufficiently advanced technology; So I conclude that true AI should be considered people.

 

[rousseau]

Well of course you do; you were raised by humans.

I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, although the idea of us creating machines that can produce 'positive psychological outcomes' in how they interact with people is indeed horrifying to me, and I hope it collectively stays that way.

Surely that's better than the sizeable minority of humans who raise children with sharply negative psychological outcomes?

Well we're talking the child-care profession, not parenting.

There is a considerable overlap.

At some point we need a balance between 'efficiency' and 'humanity', when we totally lose our humanity in the name of efficiency, there's something lost.

That's what people have always said whenever any new technology emerged.

Take child-rearing robots to the extreme and you can see the absurdity of it. Why not just strip babies completely away from their parents and have robots raise them for their entire child-hood?

Indeed, why not?

If we can get the algorithm right, we're going to have a lot of productive, mentally healthy citizens.

Correct.

But I sense that you don't actually believe this.

A world where we're primarily interacting with machines is a world I don't believe in.

Funny - It's the world I already inhabit.

Will that necessarily be the case anyway? It very well could be. It's just far outside my own comfort zone.

Indeed. But your life today, the stuff you are completely happy and comfortable with, and don't even notice, would be a dystopian nightmare to a person from two centuries ago.

So like I say, I don't disagree with you that it's a possibility, it's just not a future I hope for.

That's OK; You won't be expected to live in it, and your great great great grandchildren will think it completely unremarkable (unless they happen to be interested in history).

Fair enough, I see your point, and I think it makes sense.

 

[barbos]

When I got my eyes fixed, my surgeon was a robot

I know, but it's still a tool which requires real doctor to operate it and make decisions. I am talking complete lack of human doctors.

- - - Updated - - -

How aren't you basically describing our current world?

It's different from the current world in that you will be paid to attend courses, not pay for it.

Aha. Well, in Sweden people are paid to attend courses.

So, 40 year old can go to attend Quantum Mechanics course and be paid for it?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Aha. Well, in Sweden people are paid to attend courses.

So, 40 year old can go to attend Quantum Mechanics course and be paid for it?

Any age. You can attend university as a pensioner. Many do.

But you still need to qualify. There's a long list of prerequisite courses you need to have done to qualify for quantum mechanics. There's also limited spots. Only the people with the best grades from the preparatory courses will get in. But if you're well motivated, and study hard, there's no limit to how much you can study in Sweden.

There's also a limit on how much you're allowed to fail before you get kicked out. Just attending to get the money won't work.

The point of this system is to compensate for background. If you have the brains and the motivation the wealth of your family is irrelevant. The whole system is skewed in favour of those who do NOT come from academic or wealthy families.

I think quantum mechanics is one of the more popular courses. You need to be really good to get into it. For the Royal Technical High School (our most prestigious) the maths course that precedes quantum mechanics will weed out all but the smartest. It's notoriously hard.

 

[barbos]

So, 40 year old can go to attend Quantum Mechanics course and be paid for it?

Any age. You can attend university as a pensioner. Many do.

But you still need to qualify. There's a long list of prerequisite courses you need to have done to qualify for quantum mechanics. There's also limited spots. Only the people with the best grades from the preparatory courses will get in. But if you're well motivated, and study hard, there's no limit to how much you can study in Sweden.

There's also a limit on how much you're allowed to fail before you get kicked out. Just attending to get the money won't work.

The point of this system is to compensate for background. If you have the brains and the motivation the wealth of your family is irrelevant. The whole system is skewed in favour of those who do NOT come from academic or wealthy families.

I think quantum mechanics is one of the more popular courses. You need to be really good to get into it. For the Royal Technical High School (our most prestigious) the maths course that precedes quantum mechanics will weed out all but the smartest. It's notoriously hard.

So, how much they pay you for attending QM courses?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Any age. You can attend university as a pensioner. Many do.

But you still need to qualify. There's a long list of prerequisite courses you need to have done to qualify for quantum mechanics. There's also limited spots. Only the people with the best grades from the preparatory courses will get in. But if you're well motivated, and study hard, there's no limit to how much you can study in Sweden.

There's also a limit on how much you're allowed to fail before you get kicked out. Just attending to get the money won't work.

The point of this system is to compensate for background. If you have the brains and the motivation the wealth of your family is irrelevant. The whole system is skewed in favour of those who do NOT come from academic or wealthy families.

I think quantum mechanics is one of the more popular courses. You need to be really good to get into it. For the Royal Technical High School (our most prestigious) the maths course that precedes quantum mechanics will weed out all but the smartest. It's notoriously hard.

So, how much they pay you for attending QM courses?

You get the same regardless of what you study.

The amount isn't interesting. Since it's in relation to how high costs are. There's two parts. One salary. Which is free money. The other is loans.

The salary part is designed to sustain you if you rent a tiny room in student housing and only eat the cheapest food you can find. Student literature comes on top of this, but this cost can be avoided, if you get creative. So if you live extremely cheaply, you can scrape by on this.

If you want anything more you need to take loans. Loans are also provided by the state at very generous interest rates. Most students take loans.

It's common for students to live with their parents, and then the student salary is basically free money, which leads to a quite comfortable life, without needing to take loans.

But like I said before, you can't just sail through and pick up cash. You need to study hard and pass exams. If you fail 25% of the exams you will have to repay all the money. It's a pretty stiff penalty. So yeah, you need to be well motivated or it isn't worth it.

 

[barbos]

So, how much they pay you for attending QM courses?

You get the same regardless of what you study.

The amount isn't interesting. Since it's in relation to how high costs are. There's two parts. One salary. Which is free money. The other is loans.

The salary part is designed to sustain you if you rent a tiny room in student housing and only eat the cheapest food you can find. Student literature comes on top of this, but this cost can be avoided, if you get creative. So if you live extremely cheaply, you can scrape by on this.

If you want anything more you need to take loans. Loans are also provided by the state at very generous interest rates. Most students take loans.

It's common for students to live with their parents, and then the student salary is basically free money, which leads to a quite comfortable life, without needing to take loans.

But like I said before, you can't just sail through and pick up cash. You need to study hard and pass exams. If you fail 25% of the exams you will have to repay all the money. It's a pretty stiff penalty. So yeah, you need to be well motivated or it isn't worth it.

You basically described student stipend. Most countries have it, not just Sweden. US has it too, at least in grad schools.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You get the same regardless of what you study.

The amount isn't interesting. Since it's in relation to how high costs are. There's two parts. One salary. Which is free money. The other is loans.

The salary part is designed to sustain you if you rent a tiny room in student housing and only eat the cheapest food you can find. Student literature comes on top of this, but this cost can be avoided, if you get creative. So if you live extremely cheaply, you can scrape by on this.

If you want anything more you need to take loans. Loans are also provided by the state at very generous interest rates. Most students take loans.

It's common for students to live with their parents, and then the student salary is basically free money, which leads to a quite comfortable life, without needing to take loans.

But like I said before, you can't just sail through and pick up cash. You need to study hard and pass exams. If you fail 25% of the exams you will have to repay all the money. It's a pretty stiff penalty. So yeah, you need to be well motivated or it isn't worth it.

You basically described student stipend. Most countries have it, not just Sweden. US has it too, at least in grad schools.

No. They're completely different. Stipends are often surrounded by all manner of rules and regulations. In most systems it's a confusing array of various stipends, and it's hard to figure out which ones one is eligible for. Many are paid for by existing powerful organisations to ensure continued loyalties. Due to the nature of stipends they favour conservative organisations. The Swedish system was put in place to make students less dependent of old money. To promote fairness.

Sweden also has stipends. Most are very old, from before Sweden became a modern welfare state. But those tend to go to people belonging to academic and rich families. Because those are the only families who know how to apply for them.

I'm familiar with the US stipend system. It's inherently unfair. Not a system anybody should aspire to emulate IMHO. USA has a huge problem of getting kids from non-academic families to get educated. Higher education tends to run in families. Bizarrely enough, if your parents went to a particular university, it's easier for you to get into that school. That's the opposite of how to create a just and fair society. It should the other way around.

 

[barbos]

You basically described student stipend. Most countries have it, not just Sweden. US has it too, at least in grad schools.

No. They're completely different. Stipends are often surrounded by all manner of rules and regulations. In most systems it's a confusing array of various stipends, and it's hard to figure out which ones one is eligible for. Many are paid for by existing powerful organisations to ensure continued loyalties. Due to the nature of stipends they favour conservative organisations. The Swedish system was put in place to make students less dependent of old money. To promote fairness.

Sweden also has stipends. Most are very old, from before Sweden became a modern welfare state. But those tend to go to people belonging to academic and rich families. Because those are the only families who know how to apply for them.

I'm familiar with the US stipend system. It's inherently unfair. Not a system anybody should aspire to emulate IMHO. USA has a huge problem of getting kids from non-academic families to get educated. Higher education tends to run in families. Bizarrely enough, if your parents went to a particular university, it's easier for you to get into that school. That's the opposite of how to create a just and fair society. It should the other way around.

You confuse stipend with what they call legacy admission I think. In US grad school student stipend is a norm.
Russia had stipend system where all students were getting the same amount which was more less enough to get food, housing was free. So stop pretending that Sweden has something unique.
You were sounding as if people were literally paid to take classes. In reality they are paid to be able to live while attending university full time. It's called a stipend.

In any case, we were discussing utopia where people don't have a need do any work to support themselves. So one way to gently direct people to something constructive is to pay them for continuing education throughout their lives.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No. They're completely different. Stipends are often surrounded by all manner of rules and regulations. In most systems it's a confusing array of various stipends, and it's hard to figure out which ones one is eligible for. Many are paid for by existing powerful organisations to ensure continued loyalties. Due to the nature of stipends they favour conservative organisations. The Swedish system was put in place to make students less dependent of old money. To promote fairness.

Sweden also has stipends. Most are very old, from before Sweden became a modern welfare state. But those tend to go to people belonging to academic and rich families. Because those are the only families who know how to apply for them.

I'm familiar with the US stipend system. It's inherently unfair. Not a system anybody should aspire to emulate IMHO. USA has a huge problem of getting kids from non-academic families to get educated. Higher education tends to run in families. Bizarrely enough, if your parents went to a particular university, it's easier for you to get into that school. That's the opposite of how to create a just and fair society. It should the other way around.

You confuse stipend with what they call legacy application I think. In US grad school student stipend is a norm.
Russia had stipend system where all students were getting the same amount which was more less enough to get food, housing was free. So stop pretending that Sweden has something unique.
You were sounding as if people were literally paid to take classes. In reality they are paid to be able to live while attending university full time. It's called a stipend.

I'm not pretending anything. It's the Swedish system which I've been in. Nice to hear that Russian system is working out well. They do have their communist heritage, and if it was anything communists did well, it was to educate people.

But for USA you're just flat out wrong. In USA they have tuition fees. Students have to pay for education. They do receive a stipend. But that in no way offsets the tuition fees. They even have tuition fees for state run schools.

https://www.topuniversities.com/whe...raduate-study-us-guide-international-students

edit: Checked up on Russia. You Sir are full of shit. Russia also has tuition fees. Russian university students have to pay for education.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russian-universities-hike-tuition-fees-42991

 

[barbos]

You confuse stipend with what they call legacy admission I think. In US grad school student stipend is a norm.
Russia had stipend system where all students were getting the same amount which was more less enough to get food, housing was free. So stop pretending that Sweden has something unique.
You were sounding as if people were literally paid to take classes. In reality they are paid to be able to live while attending university full time. It's called a stipend.

I'm not pretending anything. It's the Swedish system which I've been in. Nice to hear that Russian system is working out well. They do have their communist heritage, and if it was anything communists did well, it was to educate people.

But for USA you're just flat out wrong. In USA they have tuition fees. Students have to pay for education. They do receive a stipend. But that in no way offsets the tuition fees. They even have tuition fees for state run schools.

I was talking about grad schools. I never knew any grad student who would pay tuition fee and not get stipend.

https://www.topuniversities.com/whe...raduate-study-us-guide-international-students

edit: Checked up on Russia. You Sir are full of shit. Russia also has tuition fees. Russian university students have to pay for education.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russian-universities-hike-tuition-fees-42991

No, it's you who does not read before posting, I said "Russia had"
Right now it is a messy mix of different approaches, some students still get stipend and don't pay tuition. In any case Sweden is still not an utopia.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was talking about grad schools. I never knew any grad student who would pay tuition fee and not get stipend.

Does the stipend cover tuition fees as well as leaving money over to live on?

In any case Sweden is still not an utopia.

Never said it was.

 

[barbos]

Does the stipend cover tuition fees as well as leaving money over to live on?

Tuition fees are waved one way or another, usually by requiring teaching/research assistantship.
So you don't pay anything and get a stipend which is more than enough for one person provided you don't rent a mansion, figuratively speaking. Students in big cities often complain though.

In any case Sweden is still not an utopia.

Never said it was.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Tuition fees are waved one way or another, usually by requiring teaching/research assistantship.

Then why do they have them?

 

[barbos]

Tuition fees are waved one way or another, usually by requiring teaching/research assistantship.

Then why do they have them?

So that if your family just happened to be extra rich you can pay it instead of grading bunch of stupid lab reports from undergrads.

 

[bigfield]

In sum:

• Swedish students get free university and financial aid with no conditions.
• Russian students do not get free university. Graduate students can pay their tuition fees by working for the university in a teacher/assistant capacity, but undergraduate students must pay their tuition.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Then why do they have them?

So that if your family just happened to be extra rich you can pay it instead of grading bunch of stupid lab reports from undergrads.

So how is this fair? You just admitted that people with rich parents have an easier time at university. The whole point of the Swedish system is to make everybody "the rich kid". Who can devote all their time to study. The Swedish system still isn't fair. Kids with academic parents have an easier time because they get free tuition at home from their parents. But I see no reason to artificially introduce added unfairness by giving extra chores to poor kids.

 

[barbos]

In sum:

• Swedish students get free university and financial aid with no conditions.
• Russian students do not get free university. Graduate students can pay their tuition fees by working for the university in a teacher/assistant capacity, but undergraduate students must pay their tuition.

My nephew gets free university, he even gets stipend. Generally speaking, commercially lucrative diplomas you need to pay for to get, these include bullshit professions like diplomats, lawyers, economists, business manaers, etc. Engineers, doctors and scientists are not commercially lucrative and you can get these for free.

Graduate student work a lot anyway, so this arrangement is pretty formal.

 

[barbos]

So that if your family just happened to be extra rich you can pay it instead of grading bunch of stupid lab reports from undergrads.

So how is this fair? You just admitted that people with rich parents have an easier time at university. The whole point of the Swedish system is to make everybody "the rich kid". Who can devote all their time to study. The Swedish system still isn't fair. Kids with academic parents have an easier time because they get free tuition at home from their parents. But I see no reason to artificially introduce added unfairness by giving extra chores to poor kids.

Rich kids don't go to grad schools. As I said I have never seen anybody who paid tuition fee in grad school. Wait, I know a british guy who pays tuition. But he is in GB and old, over 60 or something, decided to go grad school based on some stupid idea he had.

Trust me, grad students in US have it better than in Sweden.