Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes. Of course. The rebels who *actually* blew up the plane are only ten percent responsible.

So long as the rebels are pro-russian, they're only ever 10% responsible for any bad things they do while the Ukrainians are mostly to blame.

It has nothing to do with being pro-russian, it has to do with established fact that rebels believed that they were shooting at military plane. And it was Ukrainian Government who allowed civilian planes into war zone.

Exactly. It's like when a drunk girl passes out at a party and someone rapes her, the guy who held the party is 90% responsible and the rapist is only really 10% responsible at most. Maybe 5%, since the girl shoulder's some blame as well for being a drunken idiot. Unless the rapist is Russian, in which case it's not his fault at all and the girl should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be banged by him.

 

[barbos]

It has nothing to do with being pro-russian, it has to do with established fact that rebels believed that they were shooting at military plane. And it was Ukrainian Government who allowed civilian planes into war zone.

Exactly. It's like when a drunk girl passes out at a party and someone rapes her, the guy who held the party is 90% responsible and the rapist is only really 10% responsible at most. Maybe 5%, since the girl shoulder's some blame as well for being a drunken idiot. Unless the rapist is Russian, in which case it's not his fault at all and the girl should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be banged by him.

What a retarded analogy.
Rebels had no intention to shoot civilian plane, And if Malaysian Airlines actually asked their permission to use their airspace they would say "NO!" and nothing would have happened.

 

[dystopian]

It has nothing to do with being pro-russian, it has to do with established fact that rebels believed that they were shooting at military plane. And it was Ukrainian Government who allowed civilian planes into war zone.

Yes. Just like when a schizophrenic serial killer kills a bunch of shoppers at a mall because he believed they were demons from hell, we blame the mall-owners for letting shoppers in.

I don't think you understand the concept of responsibility. The people who pulled the trigger and the ones who ordered those people to pull the trigger; THEY are the ones responsible. While you may argue that others (like the government) may have indirectly contributed to what happened; it is the people who shot the plane who bear 100% of the responsibility. Period. Accepting FULL responsibility for one's mistakes is the honorable thing to do, and the world will accept nothing less in this case.

 

[laruan]

The game playing with the BLACK BOX by Pro-Russsian Forces and their allies proves beyond any doubt that, that part of the world and their political thinking is barbaric and unacceptable in a modern world .. One could only attribute it to inbreeeding by their Viking forefathers or an abominable civic and education system.

It might cause some societies to re-think nuclear solution as the only solution.

 

[dystopian]

The game playing with the BLACK BOX by Pro-Russsian Forces and their allies proves beyond any doubt that, that part of the world and their political thinking is barbaric and unacceptable in a modern world .. One could only attribute it to inbreeeding by their Viking forefathers or an abominable civic and education system.

Woaw, hold on there. Russians are not by and large descendent from Vikings; they're Kievan Rus who themselves were ruled over by Vikings who represented only a minority of the population in the area. And the modern image of vikings as bloodthirsty savages isn't historically correct (also, given how far they spread, they're *less* likely to have engaged in inbreeding, not more).

 

[tupac chopra]

Except they did not have any BUK launchers.

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner on the way from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in Ukraine on Thursday. All 298 people abroad the airliner died in the crash.

It's looking like, for whatever reason, it was the Ukranian govt, not from the rebels.

What the prosecutor is saying is that the rebels did not seize the BUK from the Ukrainian military. That in no way contradicts that the BUK that shot down the plane came from Russia.

The USA and their obsequious followers are trying to say that the rebels had at least one BUK. So that BUK must have come from somewhere (if it really existed). No evidence of one from Russia and they didn't get one from Kiev forces.

Those who want Russia to be responsible must find some way to make people believe the rebels had a BUK. Here is one youtube video trying to to say that this is a BUK in rebel held territory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX443-MBWbY
Unfortunately the video is pruported to be shot in Krasnodonsk but the billboard apparently gives the locatuion away as being in in Krasnoarmeysk on Dnepropetrovskaya 34 street.
http://rst.ua/autosalons/?city=129&make=661&model=0

But of course all these things can easily be confirmed if we take time rather than rush to conclusions.

So to date we have no evidence that the rebels had a BUK, if that is really how the plane came down

 

[bilby]

Exactly. It's like when a drunk girl passes out at a party and someone rapes her, the guy who held the party is 90% responsible and the rapist is only really 10% responsible at most. Maybe 5%, since the girl shoulder's some blame as well for being a drunken idiot. Unless the rapist is Russian, in which case it's not his fault at all and the girl should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be banged by him.

What a retarded analogy.
Rebels had no intention to shoot civilian plane, And if Malaysian Airlines actually asked their permission to use their airspace they would say "NO!" and nothing would have happened.

It wasn't the rebel's airspace at all, so nobody needed to ask their permission. If the rebels wanted to lay claim to the airspace, as they did with the Simferopol FIR, then the ICAO would have responded exactly as they have with Simferopol; the entire FIR is closed to international transit due to conflicting Air Traffic Authorities. Both the Russians and the Ukranians claim to be in charge, and the ICAO applies the Highlander rule - There can be only one.

In the Dnipropetrovsk FIR there is only one Air Traffic Authority; Apart from that authority, from whom should an airline request permission to use the airspace? The rules are quite clear - had the rebels made an attempt to set up their own ATC in Dnipropetrovsk FIR, the airspace would have been closed.

 

[bilby]

The game playing with the BLACK BOX by Pro-Russsian Forces and their allies proves beyond any doubt that, that part of the world and their political thinking is barbaric and unacceptable in a modern world .. One could only attribute it to inbreeeding by their Viking forefathers or an abominable civic and education system.

It might cause some societies to re-think nuclear solution as the only solution.

The 'Black Boxes' are unlikely to be important in the investigation - there is no serious doubt that the plane was shot down, so what are the CVR and DFDR going to show? The CVR will either have nothing on it at all except routine flight cruise conversation; or it might end with someone saying 'WTF was that?'. The DFDR will show nothing out of the ordinary until suddenly multiple systems fail all at once; there may be some information on the rate and mode of descent of the aircraft after it is hit, but as the location of the wreckage is already known, that won't add much to the investigation.

The 'Black Boxes' are there to help work out what caused the plane to crash. As it is already known that the cause was military action, these data recorders are only of passing value, and tampering with them will achieve nothing.

It's not like the pilots will be recorded saying "Oh, look, a missile is approaching with 'Made in Ukraine' written on it".

Nobody except a few Internet idiots would even hint at the use of nuclear weapons as a result of this incident; we are not living in the 1980s any more.

 

[tupac chopra]

The 'Black Boxes' are unlikely to be important in the investigation - there is no serious doubt that the plane was shot down, so what are the CVR and DFDR going to show? .

They could confirm or dispel reports of military aircraft accompanying or being near the plane around the time it came down.

Added in edit: It will also give us information about why the plane was flying where it was and what role the Ukranians played in that.

 

[bilby]

The 'Black Boxes' are unlikely to be important in the investigation - there is no serious doubt that the plane was shot down, so what are the CVR and DFDR going to show? .

They could confirm or dispel reports of military aircraft accompanying or being near the plane around the time it came down.

Added in edit: It will also give us information about why the plane was flying where it was and what role the Ukranians played in that.

It was flying where it was because it was on airway L980 as specified in the flight plan filed before it left Amsterdam. The location of the ELB is exactly where it would be expected to be if the aircraft was shot down on L980, given the weather conditions at the time (Scattered storm activity moving N at 15kts) - a few miles north of the airway. The Ukranians, Russians, rebels, Martians and illuminati had fuck all to do with where it was - it was exactly where it was expected to be.

If it was accompanied at some stage by military aircraft, then unless they shot it down, their presence is not relevant - and if it was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and not a SAM, then that will be determined by examining the wreckage - the CVR and DFDR won't be able to demonstrate which it was, but the wreckage will.

Again, tampering with the 'Black boxes' would simply not achieve anything - because they won't contain a shred of information that cannot be more readily obtained elsewhere.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. It's like when a drunk girl passes out at a party and someone rapes her, the guy who held the party is 90% responsible and the rapist is only really 10% responsible at most. Maybe 5%, since the girl shoulder's some blame as well for being a drunken idiot. Unless the rapist is Russian, in which case it's not his fault at all and the girl should feel lucky to have had the opportunity to be banged by him.

What a retarded analogy.
Rebels had no intention to shoot civilian plane, And if Malaysian Airlines actually asked their permission to use their airspace they would say "NO!" and nothing would have happened.

You know nothing about how things work.

You don't fly over a country's airspace without permission! Trying it is a good way to get fighters on your ass.

It's just that permission is normally granted in bulk, not on a flight by flight basis. You make arrangements, follow their rules and you can fly over their country. It is routine for bits of airspace to be blocked, you stay away from them. (Yes, that happens even in the US. I'm sure most of you have heard of "Area 51", a secret military base that many nutters say has UFOs. Actually, "Area 51" refers to the no-fly zone around it, not the base itself. Its the 51st such area in the US.)

The plane was complying with Ukrainian rules--there was a floor of 32,000' in that area, it was above it. (And being just above it doesn't mean anything--planes rarely go above 40,000, that leaves only 4 useable altitudes.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except they did not have any BUK launchers.

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner on the way from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in Ukraine on Thursday. All 298 people abroad the airliner died in the crash.

It's looking like, for whatever reason, it was the Ukranian govt, not from the rebels.

What the prosecutor is saying is that the rebels did not seize the BUK from the Ukrainian military. That in no way contradicts that the BUK that shot down the plane came from Russia.

The USA and their obsequious followers are trying to say that the rebels had at least one BUK. So that BUK must have come from somewhere (if it really existed). No evidence of one from Russia and they didn't get one from Kiev forces.

Those who want Russia to be responsible must find some way to make people believe the rebels had a BUK. Here is one youtube video trying to to say that this is a BUK in rebel held territory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX443-MBWbY
Unfortunately the video is pruported to be shot in Krasnodonsk but the billboard apparently gives the locatuion away as being in in Krasnoarmeysk on Dnepropetrovskaya 34 street.
http://rst.ua/autosalons/?city=129&make=661&model=0

But of course all these things can easily be confirmed if we take time rather than rush to conclusions.

So to date we have no evidence that the rebels had a BUK, if that is really how the plane came down

The missile came from rebel territory whatever it's type. We saw the launch. (Our ballistic launch detection satellites are sensitive enough that they can such rockets as well as the ones they're designed to look for.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The 'Black Boxes' are there to help work out what caused the plane to crash. As it is already known that the cause was military action, these data recorders are only of passing value, and tampering with them will achieve nothing.

Tamper with them to show it was a bomb on board and some could be deceived.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The 'Black Boxes' are unlikely to be important in the investigation - there is no serious doubt that the plane was shot down, so what are the CVR and DFDR going to show? .

They could confirm or dispel reports of military aircraft accompanying or being near the plane around the time it came down.

Added in edit: It will also give us information about why the plane was flying where it was and what role the Ukranians played in that.

Black boxes will show nothing about nearby fighters other than any conversations between the pilots and the fighters--and that would have been heard by others anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If it was accompanied at some stage by military aircraft, then unless they shot it down, their presence is not relevant - and if it was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and not a SAM, then that will be determined by examining the wreckage - the CVR and DFDR won't be able to demonstrate which it was, but the wreckage will.

Again, tampering with the 'Black boxes' would simply not achieve anything - because they won't contain a shred of information that cannot be more readily obtained elsewhere.

I wouldn't be sure even from examining the wreckage. Many SAMs are really just air-launched missiles fitted with an extra booster capable of ground launch. (An off-the-shelf air to air missile can't be ground launched because it has a minimum airspeed.)

 

[bilby]

The 'Black Boxes' are there to help work out what caused the plane to crash. As it is already known that the cause was military action, these data recorders are only of passing value, and tampering with them will achieve nothing.

Tamper with them to show it was a bomb on board and some could be deceived.

Not if they have access to the wreckage - the difference between an explosion outside the aircraft and one inside is really obvious.

 

[bilby]

If it was accompanied at some stage by military aircraft, then unless they shot it down, their presence is not relevant - and if it was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and not a SAM, then that will be determined by examining the wreckage - the CVR and DFDR won't be able to demonstrate which it was, but the wreckage will.

Again, tampering with the 'Black boxes' would simply not achieve anything - because they won't contain a shred of information that cannot be more readily obtained elsewhere.

I wouldn't be sure even from examining the wreckage. Many SAMs are really just air-launched missiles fitted with an extra booster capable of ground launch. (An off-the-shelf air to air missile can't be ground launched because it has a minimum airspeed.)

The fragments of the missile in the debris field (some no doubt embedded in the remains of the aircraft) will tell an expert exactly what kind of missile it was.

Of course, it really doesn't matter one whit; the end result of the investigation will be that the investigators will report the facts, and the perpetrators will say that they are lying or mistaken, the factions involved in the fighting will continue to blame each other, and the conspiracy theorists will continue to be unhinged from reality.

Unassailable evidence might lead to an apology, or even compensation, from the guilty party; but the more evidence is presented to conspiracy theorists, the less likely they are to change their minds. Hard evidence is, to conspiracy theorists, merely an indication of just how effective the cover-up has been.

 

[barbos]

What a retarded analogy.
Rebels had no intention to shoot civilian plane, And if Malaysian Airlines actually asked their permission to use their airspace they would say "NO!" and nothing would have happened.

It wasn't the rebel's airspace at all, so nobody needed to ask their permission.

De facto it was.

If the rebels wanted to lay claim to the airspace, as they did with the Simferopol FIR, then the ICAO would have responded exactly as they have with Simferopol; the entire FIR is closed to international transit due to conflicting Air Traffic Authorities.

Yeah, ukrainians wanted to control airspace which they had no control of. That describes ukrainian national psychology well.

Both the Russians and the Ukranians claim to be in charge, and the ICAO applies the Highlander rule - There can be only one.

In the Dnipropetrovsk FIR there is only one Air Traffic Authority; Apart from that authority, from whom should an airline request permission to use the airspace? The rules are quite clear - had the rebels made an attempt to set up their own ATC in Dnipropetrovsk FIR, the airspace would have been closed.

Fact is, ukrainians let civilian plane fly directly into the war zone.

 

[barbos]

What a retarded analogy.
Rebels had no intention to shoot civilian plane, And if Malaysian Airlines actually asked their permission to use their airspace they would say "NO!" and nothing would have happened.

You know nothing about how things work.

You don't fly over a country's airspace without permission! Trying it is a good way to get fighters on your ass.

It's just that permission is normally granted in bulk, not on a flight by flight basis. You make arrangements, follow their rules and you can fly over their country. It is routine for bits of airspace to be blocked, you stay away from them. (Yes, that happens even in the US. I'm sure most of you have heard of "Area 51", a secret military base that many nutters say has UFOs. Actually, "Area 51" refers to the no-fly zone around it, not the base itself. Its the 51st such area in the US.)

The plane was complying with Ukrainian rules--there was a floor of 32,000' in that area, it was above it. (And being just above it doesn't mean anything--planes rarely go above 40,000, that leaves only 4 useable altitudes.)

You can't to read.

- - - Updated - - -

The 'Black Boxes' are there to help work out what caused the plane to crash. As it is already known that the cause was military action, these data recorders are only of passing value, and tampering with them will achieve nothing.

Tamper with them to show it was a bomb on board and some could be deceived.

Oh, boy.

 

[barbos]

I wouldn't be sure even from examining the wreckage. Many SAMs are really just air-launched missiles fitted with an extra booster capable of ground launch. (An off-the-shelf air to air missile can't be ground launched because it has a minimum airspeed.)

The fragments of the missile in the debris field (some no doubt embedded in the remains of the aircraft) will tell an expert exactly what kind of missile it was.

Of course, it really doesn't matter one whit; the end result of the investigation will be that the investigators will report the facts, and the perpetrators will say that they are lying or mistaken, the factions involved in the fighting will continue to blame each other, and the conspiracy theorists will continue to be unhinged from reality.

Most likely "perpetrators" has already said what they are going to say "What were that plane doing in a war zone?"

Unassailable evidence might lead to an apology, or even compensation, from the guilty party; but the more evidence is presented to conspiracy theorists, the less likely they are to change their minds. Hard evidence is, to conspiracy theorists, merely an indication of just how effective the cover-up has been.

If history is any indication (2001 shooting of Russian plane) then you should not expect much from ukrainian side.