Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Kharakov]

And ISIS seems to be using american equipment too.

I thought ISIS was on the outs with the US government because of something Archer did, and was instead doing mercenary work for the UN?

 

[bilby]

I agree.

There is no reason to think that any of the three main suspects could not have had the necessary hardware, or that they would need to rely on someone else to obtain or use it.

True.
In other news US government supplied mexican drug cartels with weapons.
And ISIS seems to be using american equipment too. And georgian invasion into South Ossetia was done using US supplied weapons.
And Nicaragua Contras were supplied by CIA.
what else?

The US and Russia are amongst the largest arms manufacturers in the world. There is nothing particularly sinister about anybody having US or Russian made weapons, in the absence of other indications of foul play.

Even advanced systems from the Soviet era are in such a wide variety of hands that I doubt the Russian government knows for sure where they all are - the various republics no doubt retained a lot, and probably sold some during the 90s when the guys in Moscow had bigger things to worry about than the odd SAM battery.

 

[tupac chopra]

Any investigation must include the role of the Ukraine. Though strangely you and Loren don't seem to want that.

Wow, your psychic powers are incredible! You know what I want the scope of the investigation to be, despite my not having said a single word about it.

If only you were not completely wrong, I would be impressed - rather than just scornful of your technique of determining truth by dogged adherence to the bullshit you read on conspiracist websites; and of assuming that anyone who disagrees with any part of your crazy thesis is part of a uniform opposition with a homogenous set of beliefs and desires.

Sorry to upset you, but the world is not that simple - Loren and I can both agree that you are wrong, without having to share any other common belief or position at all.

No need to be a drama queen. If I got you wrong on that point I apologise.

 

[tupac chopra]

delete

 

[tupac chopra]

It's curious that the tweets from the Spanish air traffic controller can no longer be accessed as his account was closed, but here is what this air traffic controller tweeted. (translated from Spanish)
It was Putin’s missile?

Wow. That is an incredibly objective source which only presents facts and makes not a single editorial speculation regarding the events in question.

If only Western media could be so objective and dispassionate when presenting facts and not opinions.

We may disagree on some points Ford, but i do appreciate your sense of humour

 

[barbos]

True.
In other news US government supplied mexican drug cartels with weapons.
And ISIS seems to be using american equipment too. And georgian invasion into South Ossetia was done using US supplied weapons.
And Nicaragua Contras were supplied by CIA.
what else?

The US and Russia are amongst the largest arms manufacturers in the world. There is nothing particularly sinister about anybody having US or Russian made weapons, in the absence of other indications of foul play.

Even advanced systems from the Soviet era are in such a wide variety of hands that I doubt the Russian government knows for sure where they all are - the various republics no doubt retained a lot, and probably sold some during the 90s when the guys in Moscow had bigger things to worry about than the odd SAM battery.

True, but CIA was directly arming death squads in Central America.
And US had been directly arming Georgia before they decided they are good enough to go to South Osetia.

 

[laruan]

What a day, hereunder are 5 news stories that would have topped the front pages if the Ukrainian drama had not happened;
there are people being killed every where and we don't know how to stop.
……………….
At least 22 killed in Baghdad bombings
AAP
July 20, 2014 11:26AM
AT least 22 people have been killed and 74 wounded in five car bombings that hit several parts of the Iraqi capital Baghdad.
THE apparently synchronised attacks occurred in southern and northern Baghdad, targeting neighbourhoods mostly inhabited by Shi'ites..The deadliest bombing took place in the northern district of Khadimiya, leaving seven people dead and 19 injured, an unnamed security official told independent news site Almada
………………………………………………………………………………………………
43 killed when van carrying flammable liquid hits bus in China
By Steven Jiang, CNN
July 20, 2014 -- Updated 0555 GMT (1355 HKT)
A rescue effort is ongoing
Beijing (CNN) -- A van carrying flammable liquid rammed into a bus in China early Saturday, sparking an explosion that left 43 people dead, state media reported.
Both drivers were among the fatalities in the accident in Hunan Province, according to Xinhua news agency. Another person in the van was also killed.
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
Bus crash in Germany leaves several dead and scores injured
Nine dead and 43 hurt as three vehicles involved in accident on autobahn near Dresden
Associated Press in Berlin
……………………………………………………………………………….
theguardian.com, Saturday 19 July 2014 21.00 AEST
Gaza death toll passes 350 as world protests Israeli incursion
Published time: July 19, 2014 21:29
Edited time: July 20, 2014 04:08
Get short URL
Over 350 Palestinians have been killed in Israel’s ongoing operation to root out Hamas fighters it says are hiding in Gaza tunnels. Meanwhile, tens of thousands came out to protest the victims of the invasion, almost 80 percent of whom are civilians.
……………………………………………………
Israeli soldiers invade Gaza strip as thousands flee villages
Date
July 20, 2014 - 2:25AM
CITY, Gaza Strip - The first to fall to Israel's ground offensive in the Gaza Strip were the shepherds and farmers of the Bedouin village of Um Al Nasser, who say they saw Israeli soldiers come out of the smoke to order everyone in schoolboy Arabic, "go south!"
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

 

[tupac chopra]

It's curious that the tweets from the Spanish air traffic controller can no longer be accessed as his account was closed, but here is what this air traffic controller tweeted. (translated from Spanish)
It was Putin’s missile?

Wow. That is an incredibly objective source which only presents facts and makes not a single editorial speculation regarding the events in question.
If only Western media could be so objective and dispassionate when presenting facts and not opinions.

As a serious question, what was your problem with Pepe Escobar's article. Is there somewhere he speculates without saying it is speculation. Were his facts wrong?
It's incredibly Ironic that the Russia today website is more objective than say, Fox news.
I think Russia has taken the view that American institutions are so corrupt that the best path forward is to try to be objective. It's very ironic.
Anyway I'll repeat the questions about Pepe Escobar's article.
Is there somewhere he speculates without saying it is speculation. Were his facts wrong when doesn't indicate he is speculating.?

 

[bilby]

What a day, hereunder are 5 news stories that would have topped the front pages if the Ukrainian drama had not happened;
there are people being killed every where and we don't know how to stop.
……………….
At least 22 killed in Baghdad bombings
AAP
July 20, 2014 11:26AM
AT least 22 people have been killed and 74 wounded in five car bombings that hit several parts of the Iraqi capital Baghdad.
THE apparently synchronised attacks occurred in southern and northern Baghdad, targeting neighbourhoods mostly inhabited by Shi'ites..The deadliest bombing took place in the northern district of Khadimiya, leaving seven people dead and 19 injured, an unnamed security official told independent news site Almada

Wouldn't be front page.

………………………………………………………………………………………………
43 killed when van carrying flammable liquid hits bus in China
By Steven Jiang, CNN
July 20, 2014 -- Updated 0555 GMT (1355 HKT)
A rescue effort is ongoing
Beijing (CNN) -- A van carrying flammable liquid rammed into a bus in China early Saturday, sparking an explosion that left 43 people dead, state media reported.
Both drivers were among the fatalities in the accident in Hunan Province, according to Xinhua news agency. Another person in the van was also killed.

Only makes the news if there is some footage of the explosion.

…………………………………………………………………………………………..
Bus crash in Germany leaves several dead and scores injured
Nine dead and 43 hurt as three vehicles involved in accident on autobahn near Dresden
Associated Press in Berlin

Only a top story in countries who had nationals amongst the dead. Might make the news if there are dramatic/gory pictures available.

……………………………………………………………………………….
theguardian.com, Saturday 19 July 2014 21.00 AEST
Gaza death toll passes 350 as world protests Israeli incursion
Published time: July 19, 2014 21:29
Edited time: July 20, 2014 04:08
Get short URL
Over 350 Palestinians have been killed in Israel’s ongoing operation to root out Hamas fighters it says are hiding in Gaza tunnels. Meanwhile, tens of thousands came out to protest the victims of the invasion, almost 80 percent of whom are civilians.

Not news. Might get mentioned on a slow news day, well down the order.

……………………………………………………
Israeli soldiers invade Gaza strip as thousands flee villages
Date
July 20, 2014 - 2:25AM
CITY, Gaza Strip - The first to fall to Israel's ground offensive in the Gaza Strip were the shepherds and farmers of the Bedouin village of Um Al Nasser, who say they saw Israeli soldiers come out of the smoke to order everyone in schoolboy Arabic, "go south!"

Probable headline material. One from five.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

If it bleeds, it leads. Israel/Palestine is 'dog bites man' - most of the readers don't care any more.

Bus crashes need pictures of mangled wreckage, or better still, a fire-ball or two.

No one gives a shit about important stuff that doesn't involve explosions. [/cynicism]

 

[tupac chopra]

AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?

Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.

I think I get your drift Blacktown man - but what we do know is - the MH17 was shot down ; such an act would require a special type of missile , the only ones in that area with access to such weapons , are Ukraine Govt , Western Ukraine Rebel Pro Russian Forces and Russian govt forces , so take your pick on who is responsible , most rational people would come down on the side of the West Ukraine Pro Russian rebels ,.

Except they did not have any BUK launchers.

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner on the way from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in Ukraine on Thursday. All 298 people abroad the airliner died in the crash.

It's looking like, for whatever reason, it was the Ukranian govt, not from the rebels.

There are several reports now of the doomed plane being accompanied by military jets, including this from people on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, apparently. Maybe Bardos can confirm the translation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPcbFJSGk7E

If this is right,and the evidence , including the incriminating youtube video made before the crash, the BUK activity in the Kiev controlled Ukraine before the plane went down, the eyewitness reports of more than one plane and parachuting men, the wreckage being in the wrong place, then Washington is going to be again in an awful situation.
Will it keep lying if this is the case? History would say, yes.

 

[barbos]

tupac chopra, Vitaly Yarema is trying to imply that Russia gave Buk to rebels.

 

[tupac chopra]

tupac chopra, Vitaly Yarema is trying to imply that Russia gave Buk to rebels.

Yes, but there is no evidence of any BUK's coming over the border from Russia to Ukraine, so he has shot himself in the foot.

 

[barbos]

tupac chopra, Vitaly Yarema is trying to imply that Russia gave Buk to rebels.

Yes, but there is no evidence of any BUK's coming over the border from Russia to Ukraine, so he has shot himself in the foot.

Not really, he can always say "Apparently I was misinformed and rebels did get a hold of our Buk"

 

[Jayjay]

I think I get your drift Blacktown man - but what we do know is - the MH17 was shot down ; such an act would require a special type of missile , the only ones in that area with access to such weapons , are Ukraine Govt , Western Ukraine Rebel Pro Russian Forces and Russian govt forces , so take your pick on who is responsible , most rational people would come down on the side of the West Ukraine Pro Russian rebels ,.

Except they did not have any BUK launchers.

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner on the way from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in Ukraine on Thursday. All 298 people abroad the airliner died in the crash.

It's looking like, for whatever reason, it was the Ukranian govt, not from the rebels.

What the prosecutor is saying is that the rebels did not seize the BUK from the Ukrainian military. That in no way contradicts that the BUK that shot down the plane came from Russia.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What a day, hereunder are 5 news stories that would have topped the front pages if the Ukrainian drama had not happened;
there are people being killed every where and we don't know how to stop.
……………….
At least 22 killed in Baghdad bombings
AAP
July 20, 2014 11:26AM
AT least 22 people have been killed and 74 wounded in five car bombings that hit several parts of the Iraqi capital Baghdad.
THE apparently synchronised attacks occurred in southern and northern Baghdad, targeting neighbourhoods mostly inhabited by Shi'ites..The deadliest bombing took place in the northern district of Khadimiya, leaving seven people dead and 19 injured, an unnamed security official told independent news site Almada
………………………………………………………………………………………………
43 killed when van carrying flammable liquid hits bus in China
By Steven Jiang, CNN
July 20, 2014 -- Updated 0555 GMT (1355 HKT)
A rescue effort is ongoing
Beijing (CNN) -- A van carrying flammable liquid rammed into a bus in China early Saturday, sparking an explosion that left 43 people dead, state media reported.
Both drivers were among the fatalities in the accident in Hunan Province, according to Xinhua news agency. Another person in the van was also killed.
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
Bus crash in Germany leaves several dead and scores injured
Nine dead and 43 hurt as three vehicles involved in accident on autobahn near Dresden
Associated Press in Berlin
……………………………………………………………………………….
theguardian.com, Saturday 19 July 2014 21.00 AEST
Gaza death toll passes 350 as world protests Israeli incursion
Published time: July 19, 2014 21:29
Edited time: July 20, 2014 04:08
Get short URL
Over 350 Palestinians have been killed in Israel’s ongoing operation to root out Hamas fighters it says are hiding in Gaza tunnels. Meanwhile, tens of thousands came out to protest the victims of the invasion, almost 80 percent of whom are civilians.
……………………………………………………
Israeli soldiers invade Gaza strip as thousands flee villages
Date
July 20, 2014 - 2:25AM
CITY, Gaza Strip - The first to fall to Israel's ground offensive in the Gaza Strip were the shepherds and farmers of the Bedouin village of Um Al Nasser, who say they saw Israeli soldiers come out of the smoke to order everyone in schoolboy Arabic, "go south!"
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

I'm sorry for saying this, but Malaysian Ft 1470 really will just be a sad footnote in issue. The far greater issue is Russian meddling in Ukraine. Ukraine is moving away from Russia. How does Russia respond - by acting like assholes. They steal their land, arm rebels with weapons that are too sophisticated for them, and flood their country with Russian Special forces. These are the actions that are pushing Ukraine to the west. It is Putin who is taking a heavy hand and is creating Ukrainian nationalism. If the Russians want to maintain some influence in Ukraine, simply stop acting like assholes!

 

[barbos]

What the prosecutor is saying is that the rebels did not seize the BUK from the Ukrainian military. That in no way contradicts that the BUK that shot down the plane came from Russia.

And Russian "prosecutor" is saying Russia did not give any Buks to rebels

 

[Sabine Grant]

For those who dismiss statements made by the Ukrainian authorities, why in the world would they then take statements made by Russian authorities as truth? Both sides would have an invested interest in denying any involvement with this tragedy. Both sides are driven by the mutual need to point fingers at each other. To point to each other as the culprit-to-be.

Is anyone expecting here a confession or admitting from the actual culprits? Is this a case similar to the shooting down of an Iranian civilian plane by a missile launched from the USS Vincennes when the US concluded that the ship was the party responsible for that tragedy? Of course not.

Are we to expect an act of good will from the actual culprits coming forward with the reality that if there was no willful intent to target a civilian airliner, they jumped to the wrong conclusion that it was a military plane?

IMHO, the world would be able to forgive whichever culprit coming forward with the admitting that they jumped to the wrong conclusion. But at this point, the actual culprits are covering their ass and obviously determined to not show any good will.

When a culprit comes forward, it usually means a degree of remorse. In this specific case, whomever is the culprit is showing no remorse. What we are observing at this point is all types of wild accusations flying from all potentially suspicious parties. To include all sorts of conspiracy theories fueled in their respective media. To include a repeat of the claims which were made by the Soviets when 2 missiles struck flight KAL 007 : that it was not a civilian airliner but an American spying plane loaded with corpses. The repeat having been formulated recently by a Separatist Commander claiming that the remains or bodies of flight 17 did not look "fresh". Claim also alluding to finding among the debris "blood samples" and "medical equipment" usually not found on board planes. Mind you that such comments come from an individual who is far from being an expert in forensics and somehow missed the fact that among the passengers were medical researchers dedicated to target research on HIV en route for a conference.

The above claims illustrating the type of mental gymnastics one will engage in to justify shooting down a plane. And of course such reasoning meant to portray flight 17 as a legitimate target can only make the Separatists look more suspicious than other suspected parties.

Really..why would anyone come up with such allusions to bodies not looking "fresh" etc... if not as a preemptively conceived measure just in case evidence is finally gathered pointing to them as being the actual culprit? The actual culprit can always copycat what the Soviets did following the tragedy of flight KAL 007.

Further, why in the world would anyone in our modern times *think* that with the advanced technology of satellites being able to zoom on specific geographical areas and gather intel, any nation part of the Western world would be relying on using a "prop" plane loaded with corpses, pretending to be a civilian airliner?

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian government appears to be thinking that once they prove that rebels did that they are off the hook.
I say not really, in fact they would still be 90% responsible for this tragedy because they did not close their airspace.
And despite what their prosecutor claims it is more than likely that Buk was captured from them.
Remember, these are the same people who lied about Odessa tragedy.

 

[dystopian]

Ukrainian government appears to be thinking that once they prove that rebels did that they are off the hook.
I say not really, in fact they would still be 90% responsible for this tragedy because they did not close their airspace.
And despite what their prosecutor claims it is more than likely that Buk was captured from them.
Remember, these are the same people who lied about Odessa tragedy.

Yes. Of course. The rebels who *actually* blew up the plane are only ten percent responsible.

So long as the rebels are pro-russian, they're only ever 10% responsible for any bad things they do while the Ukrainians are mostly to blame.

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian government appears to be thinking that once they prove that rebels did that they are off the hook.
I say not really, in fact they would still be 90% responsible for this tragedy because they did not close their airspace.
And despite what their prosecutor claims it is more than likely that Buk was captured from them.
Remember, these are the same people who lied about Odessa tragedy.

Yes. Of course. The rebels who *actually* blew up the plane are only ten percent responsible.

So long as the rebels are pro-russian, they're only ever 10% responsible for any bad things they do while the Ukrainians are mostly to blame.

It has nothing to do with being pro-russian, it has to do with established fact that rebels believed that they were shooting at military plane. And it was Ukrainian Government who allowed civilian planes into war zone.