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Ontario raising minimum wage to $15

You can't set your price below what it costs to produce + a reasonable profit if you want to stay in business.

I worked for a manufacturing company here for almost 15 years; I started out unloading trucks in the goods inwards warehouse, and after a number of moves and promotions, finished as Demand Planning Manager.

At one point, I was the Inventory Manager for the manufacturing plant, and we had a number of ongoing issues with unfinished inventory building up at various parts of the process. I determined that we didn't really know what these delays cost, and so whether it was worth buying more equipment and/or adding staff to clear the bottlenecks, so the General Manager and I had a series of meetings, and decided to hire a production accountant to work with me to get a better handle on our costs at a more granular level than was then understood.

After a long and complex study, in which the two of us built a detailed cost model of the site, with each operation and machine hour costed in detail, one of the things that fell out of the analysis was that the previous cost model, which estimated production costs based on the crude number of units produced per hour, produced wildly inaccurate results; The actual cost of manufacturing some 200 of the 385 SKUs we produced was below our selling price; about 150 SKUs were priced approximately in accordance with the old model; and the remaining 15 SKUs were priced with profit margins WILDLY greater than our price setting rules suggested was appropriate.

This in a company that had been thriving and growing very fast for 30+ years. Our best selling products were being sold for FAR more than they cost to make - but the customers were used to paying that price, and our competitors generally charged a similar amount. Most of our product lines were being sold at below cost, effectively subsidised by the big ticket items.

The management response to this was to make some significant changes to our manufacturing strategy, to maximise production of the most profitable lines; And to direct the salesforce to aggressively push the most profitable items. No reductions in price were made to the high-margin items; And the price of the loss-making items was increased very little (to avoid loss of sales volume), with a view to slowly increasing the prices to bring them to profitability over ten to fifteen more years.

The lessons here are: a) Don't spook the market if you find out that your pricing policy is wildly inappropriate; b) It's not important to make a profit on every (or even most) of the lines you sell, as long as the overall operation is profitable; c) Just because you know that you are selling at the 'wrong' price, doesn't mean your best strategy is to change to the optimum price structure straight away - and it might NEVER be the best strategy; and d) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Our customers largely wanted a large product range from a single supplier. If we stopped selling products X, Y and Z that were losing money (or sharply raised our price on those items), then we would lose our sales of everything to that customer, including product A, which was making us a mint. This one simple and commonplace fact - customers don't want to deal with a vast number of different suppliers - totally destroys the hypothesis that "you can't set your price below what it costs to produce + a reasonable profit if you want to stay in business". Indeed, to give a more commonly seen example, you see this at fast food outlets, where drink refills are free - 'free' is certainly less than the cost of goods sold in this scenario, and yet not offering free refills would harm the business, and drive customers to the competition.

Of course, the above is just a real world example from an actual manufacturing company; I am sure you have some sound economic theory that says it would be impossible in a hypothetical economy. But it seems to be quite typical of real manufacturing facilities - they sell quite a number of products at a loss, mostly because they simply don't realize what their actual costs are - and those few who do have a handle on their actual costs don't act, because disrupting the market is generally a bad strategic move - it would show your hand to your competitors - and because their optimum sales strategy includes loss-leaders (just like the free drink refills at fast food joints).

In short, your claim here is, to my certain knowledge, false. It could be true of a manufacturer or retailer with a very small product range, and a good grasp of their actual costs, who operates in a fully mature market that has been stable in terms of both costs and demand for a considerable time (at least a quarter century); But as such circumstances are rare, it's not a useful guide to the real world.
 
There's only one reality, you're just not aware of it as you're too busy being caught up in your silly little fantasies.

All business models should make room for all members involved top to bottom to profit off the venture equitably. This is not an unreasonable expectation. So to answer your question, you are entitled to earn a living that allows for a 'reasonable net profit' same as anyone else. This is provided of course that someone is willing to pay you for that service to begin with.

You didn't answer the questions I asked. Unless I missed it.

Given I am obviously entitled to a fair wage oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots, who is obligated to pay?

You missed it, the person hiring you. Now if this person is willing to hire you for that purpose, that's another matter. I don't imagine something as bizarrely specific as "Oiling up bodies." to warrant a dedicated job appointment, especially when models can likely oil themselves up.
 
Also, can someone explain exactly how much profit from tricking idiots into snorting chocolate is reasonable?
 
You're not making sense here.

You are correct that in the short run profit & loss doesn't decide the fate of businesses. You are not establishing that this has any relevance to the situation, though, because the changes being discussed are permanent, not short term.
The long-term reality is that a rise in wages generally (in fact, by necessity) means an improvement in quality of personnel and quality of service. This is either because companies make sure the personnel who receive those wages are more qualified, or because companies that provide poor service do not survive. That is the LONG TERM trend that persists in reality.

Paying more attracts the more desirable workers and thus improves quality. If everyone pays more it provides no ability to select and thus does nothing to improve quality.

There is no such thing as a "permanent change" in business. Even the long-term picture is only relevant until conditions change again, which they will, as a matter of certainty.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

So you think they should lose money and make it up on volume??
No, I think they WILL lose money unless they change their business model, which MAY involve them making it up on volume. I have no interest in what businesses "should" do, that is entirely up to them.

So you don't care if your model is viable, only that it makes you feel good.

Reality: Some will be picked up, some will be left unemployed.
Until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps, make themselves employable again and find better jobs at the new minimum wage.

Except you went and cut off the ladder.

And you have been around this board long enough for us to know -- without any doubt at all -- that you do not give two shits about those workers who are unable to actually do that and are happy to leave them wallowing in the welfare-funded gutter.

You're the one who doesn't give a shit about them, you want to sacrifice the ones at the bottom to raise the pay of those somewhat higher up the ladder. Fundamentally, the only way to increase the price of labor is reduce the supply. Barring catastrophe (the Black Death played a huge role in increasing the power of labor) the only way to do that is to leave some behind, or to prevent them from entering your field.

The long term profit ratio is fixed. It bounces all over the place
Something that "bounces all over the place" is not something that is "fixed."

Disagree--it bounces around the point it's tied to.

- - - Updated - - -

An entitlement implies someone decreeing it and paying for it.

Who, God?

So you don't think people are entitled to a reasonable profit for their honest labor? Good to know.

You avoided the issue. Who has said you are entitled and is paying for said entitlement?
 
Yes, well, I'm not delusional so no.

I'm curious about how things work in your version of reality. How much am I entitled to be paid for preferred labor of oiling up supermodels for nude photo shoots?

Who does the paying? The supermodels?

There's only one reality, you're just not aware of it as you're too busy being caught up in your silly little fantasies.

All business models should make room for all members involved top to bottom to profit off the venture equitably. This is not an unreasonable expectation. So to answer your question, you are entitled to earn a living that allows for a 'reasonable net profit' same as anyone else. This is provided of course that someone is willing to pay you for that service to begin with.

No, you're caught up in your silly fantasy of a world that's inherently good.

When faced with a situation lacking a good answer you blame those with power for not making it good rather than accept that reality isn't as nice as you imagine it to be.
 
There's only one reality, you're just not aware of it as you're too busy being caught up in your silly little fantasies.

All business models should make room for all members involved top to bottom to profit off the venture equitably. This is not an unreasonable expectation. So to answer your question, you are entitled to earn a living that allows for a 'reasonable net profit' same as anyone else. This is provided of course that someone is willing to pay you for that service to begin with.

You didn't answer the questions I asked. Unless I missed it.

Given I am obviously entitled to a fair wage oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots, who is obligated to pay?

Whoever it is you managed to convince to give you a job oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots. They're obligated to pay you because fair compensation for labor is considered a basic human right while unfair compensation and/or lack of compensation is considered to be exploitative and unjustifiable.
 
You didn't answer the questions I asked. Unless I missed it.

Given I am obviously entitled to a fair wage oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots, who is obligated to pay?

Whoever it is you managed to convince to give you a job oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots. They're obligated to pay you because fair compensation for labor is considered a basic human right while unfair compensation and/or lack of compensation is considered to be exploitative and unjustifiable.

What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?
 
Whoever it is you managed to convince to give you a job oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots. They're obligated to pay you because fair compensation for labor is considered a basic human right while unfair compensation and/or lack of compensation is considered to be exploitative and unjustifiable.

What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

So this is what it looks like when Dismal is backed into a corner and desperately, DESPERATELY looking for a leg to stand on.

Neat.
 
What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

So this is what it looks like when Dismal is backed into a corner and desperately, DESPERATELY looking for a leg to stand on.

Neat.

So, again you don't answer the question.

Kate Upton wants me to oil her up for 1 hour for a nude photoshoot for $3.

I want to oil her up for a nude photoshoot for $3.

And my human rights prevent this?

Seriously, WTF kinda right is that.
 
There's only one reality, you're just not aware of it as you're too busy being caught up in your silly little fantasies.

All business models should make room for all members involved top to bottom to profit off the venture equitably. This is not an unreasonable expectation. So to answer your question, you are entitled to earn a living that allows for a 'reasonable net profit' same as anyone else. This is provided of course that someone is willing to pay you for that service to begin with.

No, you're caught up in your silly fantasy of a world that's inherently good.

When faced with a situation lacking a good answer you blame those with power for not making it good rather than accept that reality isn't as nice as you imagine it to be.

The answer is to make sure people are paid well enough to profit off of their own honest labor, regardless of whether they are entrepreneurs or contract workers.
 
So this is what it looks like when Dismal is backed into a corner and desperately, DESPERATELY looking for a leg to stand on.

Neat.

So, again you don't answer the question.

Kate Upton wants me to oil her up for 1 hour for a nude photoshoot for $3.

I want to oil her up for a nude photoshoot for $3.

And my human rights prevent this?

Seriously, WTF kinda right is that.

Your question is inane and reeks of desperation to not have to concede. The state protects people from their own folly all the time, seriously ALL THE TIME. Know why some states outlaw particular fireworks? So people don't burn their neighborhoods down during the dry season. Your (And only yours) inexplicable desire to work for 3 dollars on the hour does not take precedent over the needs of others for better living standards.
 
The long-term reality is that a rise in wages generally (in fact, by necessity) means an improvement in quality of personnel and quality of service. This is either because companies make sure the personnel who receive those wages are more qualified, or because companies that provide poor service do not survive. That is the LONG TERM trend that persists in reality.

Paying more attracts the more desirable workers and thus improves quality.
Indeed. It also motivates managers to try and get more productive work out of the employees they already have. The phrase "I'm paying you too much to sit on your ass and eat french fries all day" becomes a lot less ironic if you are actually paying your workers a decent wage. On the other hand, "They aren't paying me enough to put up with this shit" becomes that much LESS common.

Basic psychology comes into play here too: when a worker's basic needs (e.g. food and shelter and a bit of security) are met, he is more likely to focus on the next tier of his own personal needs, namely satisfaction in the work place and esteem of his peers. Which means he doesn't just show up, clock in, get paid and leave. He wants his work to be MEANINGFUL and rewarding in some way. A certain number of employees will never actually discover their motivation from these circumstances and will either be fired or see their hours drastically reduced, but far more of them WILL benefit than not.

So you don't care if your model is viable, only that it makes you feel good.
I don't care if THEIR business model is viable or not, only that it makes the economy stronger by raising overall income for most of the labor market.

The fact is, there IS a certain equilibrium point where raising the minimum wage would actually reduce total earnings of the labor force rather than raise it. This is the balance point where too many companies go out of business or cut too many work hours for the increase wages to balance the losses. No one actually knows what that point is, but the widespread consensus is that the current single-digit minimum wage in most states/cities of America is nowhere close to it. There's an argument that Seattle's tipping point is at or near $15/hour and is therefore JUST high enough to hit the balancing point (thus raising it any higher would do more harm than good). Ontario's balance point is probably a tiny bit higher, but AFAIK there's no talk of raising it further for some time in the future.

But you're the one making the claim that ANY increase in the minimum wage would cause rampant unemployment and bankruptcy in every market everywhere simultaneously. This is CLEARLY a bullshit claim; six different point have pointed out to you that market analysis ALONE is not sufficient or even particularly helpful in setting prices, which means depending on "the market" to set the cost of labor is a useless fantasy, which ultimately means that raising the minimum wage ABOVE market demand is not a serious consideration here. Since employers cannot and do not quantify the actual demand for a particular employee's labor, they have to weigh their hiring decisions based on their internal financial needs, not based on some imaginary macro-trend in the labor market.

Except you went and cut off the ladder.
No, YOU cut off the ladder when you defunded their kids' schools and cut their welfare benefits because you consider them to be "parasites." Or don't you remember being on the exact OPPOSITE side of this debate when it came to the question of educational intervention and job training for under-performing students and your basic attitude was "fuck those guys, they don't really want to learn, send them off to alternative schools so they won't waste anyone's time."

So you don't want to raise their wages, you don't want to educate them, you don't want to help improve their neighborhoods at all... you clearly don't give two shits what happens to them, so what do you care if they wind up unemployed too?

You're the one who doesn't give a shit about them, you want to sacrifice the ones at the bottom to raise the pay of those somewhat higher up the ladder.
"The ones at the bottom" ALSO benefit from the rising minimum wage. For two important reasons
1) Higher wages for the same hours makes their labor more profitable
2) Higher wages for REDUCED hours gives them personal time they otherwise wouldn't have that can now be devoted to education, childcare, or a second job

You should know that it is not actually possible for employers to specifically target and exclude "the ones at the bottom." They don't know who the "bottom ones" actually are. I realize YOU think you know who the "ones at the bottom" are, but that's because you live in a fantasyland safely insulated from reality.

Disagree--it bounces around the point it's tied to.
Which isn't a "fixed" ratio at all. That's a ratio that varies within some arbitrary limits defined only after the fact.

As usual, you get caught posting alternative facts (in this case, alternative definitions of words) and are now backpedaling to seem less wrong than you obviously are.
 
So, again you don't answer the question.

Kate Upton wants me to oil her up for 1 hour for a nude photoshoot for $3.

I want to oil her up for a nude photoshoot for $3.

And my human rights prevent this?

Seriously, WTF kinda right is that.

Your question is inane and reeks of desperation to not have to concede. The state protects people from their own folly all the time, seriously ALL THE TIME. Know why some states outlaw particular fireworks? So people don't burn their neighborhoods down during the dry season. Your (And only yours) inexplicable desire to work for 3 dollars on the hour does not take precedent over the needs of others for better living standards.

LOL. Desperation about what?

Someone on the internet asserted something inane?
 
Whoever it is you managed to convince to give you a job oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots. They're obligated to pay you because fair compensation for labor is considered a basic human right while unfair compensation and/or lack of compensation is considered to be exploitative and unjustifiable.

What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?
Then the guy who DOES manage to convince the supermodels to give him the job for $15 instead of $3 is going to have to drop his prices to stay competitive. He'll eventually have to beat YOUR price if you're both competing for contracts with the same models.

And those of us who need supermodel oilers to be able to make a decent living without getting dragged into a market-crushing race-to-the-bottom would also have a problem with this.

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

That's the thing that sucks about human rights: the same thing that protect your freedom also limits your choices.

Your basic right to property prevents me from breaking into your house and stealing all your stuff, as does your right to privacy. Your rights limit my freedom, and my rights limit your freedom.

My right to full citizenship and the protection from the depredation of slavers infringes on YOUR right to deliberately sell yourself into slavery. Similarly, my right to exist in a labor market that can support the lifestyles and/or families of working people -- something our country really needs for its own internal domestic tranquility -- infringes on your right to short-sell your labor.
 
What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?
Then the guy who DOES manage to convince the supermodels to give him the job for $15 instead of $3 is going to have to drop his prices to stay competitive. He'll eventually have to beat YOUR price if you're both competing for contracts with the same models.

And those of us who need supermodel oilers to be able to make a decent living without getting dragged into a market-crushing race-to-the-bottom would also have a problem with this.

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

That's the thing that sucks about human rights: the same thing that protect your freedom also limits your choices.

Your basic right to property prevents me from breaking into your house and stealing all your stuff, as does your right to privacy. Your rights limit my freedom, and my rights limit your freedom.

My right to full citizenship and the protection from the depredation of slavers infringes on YOUR right to deliberately sell yourself into slavery. Similarly, my right to exist in a labor market that can support the lifestyles and/or families of working people -- something our country really needs for its own internal domestic tranquility -- infringes on your right to short-sell your labor.


That's where dismal, and I differ from the other side. There is no fundamental human right to be guaranteed a job at the price that you want.
 
Your question is inane and reeks of desperation to not have to concede. The state protects people from their own folly all the time, seriously ALL THE TIME. Know why some states outlaw particular fireworks? So people don't burn their neighborhoods down during the dry season. Your (And only yours) inexplicable desire to work for 3 dollars on the hour does not take precedent over the needs of others for better living standards.

LOL. Desperation about what?

Someone on the internet asserted something inane?

Now who's giving insubstantial responses?
 
Now who's giving insubstantial responses?

Pointing out someone made an inane assertion in response to someone making an inane assertion is not an "insubstantial response."

Then why give me shit for the exact same response?

Full

of

shit.

But here's where we differ. I can explain why your questions or assertions are inane. You cannot say the same of me, or you would have.
 
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