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Ontario raising minimum wage to $15

Then the guy who DOES manage to convince the supermodels to give him the job for $15 instead of $3 is going to have to drop his prices to stay competitive. He'll eventually have to beat YOUR price if you're both competing for contracts with the same models.

And those of us who need supermodel oilers to be able to make a decent living without getting dragged into a market-crushing race-to-the-bottom would also have a problem with this.

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

That's the thing that sucks about human rights: the same thing that protect your freedom also limits your choices.

Your basic right to property prevents me from breaking into your house and stealing all your stuff, as does your right to privacy. Your rights limit my freedom, and my rights limit your freedom.

My right to full citizenship and the protection from the depredation of slavers infringes on YOUR right to deliberately sell yourself into slavery. Similarly, my right to exist in a labor market that can support the lifestyles and/or families of working people -- something our country really needs for its own internal domestic tranquility -- infringes on your right to short-sell your labor.


That's where dismal, and I differ from the other side. There is no fundamental human right to be guaranteed a job at the price that you want.

I didn't say there was.

I said there's a fundamental right to exist in a labor market that can support the lifestyles and/or families of working people.

What I WANT is immaterial, what I NEED is for the economy to not collapse under the weight of its own structural imbalances and bring all of us down with it. I also need my son's school to not be a festering deathtrap and/or five alarm fire waiting to happen, and thus I support the minimum wage for the same reason I support building codes and property taxes.

That doesn't mean ALL building codes are great, or that any attempt to enforce them no matter how onerous is good. It doesn't mean I am okay with the school district jacking up my property taxes by 20% just so the superintendent can steer some bullshit service contract to her friend in SoCal (which actually happened, by the way). These things exist because they serve a purpose, and the purpose they serve is a valuable one even if the EXECUTION thereof is sometimes a little sloppy.
 
Whoever it is you managed to convince to give you a job oiling up supermodels for nude photoshoots. They're obligated to pay you because fair compensation for labor is considered a basic human right while unfair compensation and/or lack of compensation is considered to be exploitative and unjustifiable.

What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?
So become an independent contractor and you can charge whatever you want to oil up supermodels.
 
What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour have someone murder me than engage them in a professional boxing match?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

FIFY.
 
What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?

So this is what it looks like when Dismal is backed into a corner and desperately, DESPERATELY looking for a leg to stand on.

Neat.

You are saying that because you want it it should be. He's proposing an obviously outrageous counterexample that meets your criteria.
 
What if I'd rather oil up supermodels for $3 per hour than not have a job oiling up supermodels for $15 per hour?

Doesn't what I want count? Or am I to be fucked over by my own "basic human rights"?
So become an independent contractor and you can charge whatever you want to oil up supermodels.

So if I'm an "independent contractor" I lose my human rights and I can agree to oil up supermodels for $3 per hour?

That's a sweet loophole.
 
What's it pay?

More than oiling up supermodels. And you don't have to deal with oil companies!

I don't want to give up my dream job of oiling up supermodels. I'm buying into that Steve Jobs schtick where If I do what my heart tells me and wait for the money will follow.

But, that said, feel free to make an offer.
 
Paying more attracts the more desirable workers and thus improves quality.
Indeed. It also motivates managers to try and get more productive work out of the employees they already have. The phrase "I'm paying you too much to sit on your ass and eat french fries all day" becomes a lot less ironic if you are actually paying your workers a decent wage. On the other hand, "They aren't paying me enough to put up with this shit" becomes that much LESS common.

You're assuming the quality of work is only related to the pay, not the person. That's not true.

So you don't care if your model is viable, only that it makes you feel good.
I don't care if THEIR business model is viable or not, only that it makes the economy stronger by raising overall income for most of the labor market.

Except you continue to have a blind spot about unemployment. Cast the least valuable workers out of the labor pool and of course the quality of the labor pool goes up. Doesn't mean society is better off, though.

The fact is, there IS a certain equilibrium point where raising the minimum wage would actually reduce total earnings of the labor force rather than raise it. This is the balance point where too many companies go out of business or cut too many work hours for the increase wages to balance the losses. No one actually knows what that point is, but the widespread consensus is that the current single-digit minimum wage in most states/cities of America is nowhere close to it.

About as much consensus as there is amongst the GOP for the Laffer curve, and about as high quality.

The thing is, in almost all cases all we see is noise. A pretty huge effect could hide from most studies, thus the negative results mean nothing. The best study out there is the Seattle one and they're not going to make the mistake of repeating that. The researchers were promptly fired for not producing a report that said what they wanted to hear.

To a lesser degree we have the devastation of the big increase in minimum wage in American Samoa. While it's usually about 1% of the workforce (beware of the studies that lump minimum wage with at or below minimum wage. Below minimum wage is a very different market) it was a much higher percent there, the unemployment it caused was far too big to hide in the noise like usual.

Also, we have the very high unemployment rate amongst the workers at the bottom of the ladder--black teens. This is the expected result but proving a relationship is hard.

There's an argument that Seattle's tipping point is at or near $15/hour and is therefore JUST high enough to hit the balancing point (thus raising it any higher would do more harm than good). Ontario's balance point is probably a tiny bit higher, but AFAIK there's no talk of raising it further for some time in the future.

Of course the tipping point is more than the current MW. Same as we are always to the right on the Laffer curve. Both are wishful thinking, not data.

Except you went and cut off the ladder.
No, YOU cut off the ladder when you defunded their kids' schools and cut their welfare benefits because you consider them to be "parasites." Or don't you remember being on the exact OPPOSITE side of this debate when it came to the question of educational intervention and job training for under-performing students and your basic attitude was "fuck those guys, they don't really want to learn, send them off to alternative schools so they won't waste anyone's time."

See me trying to defund schools? I have said that throwing money at the school problem won't do squat to solve it but I haven't called for cutting schools other than in terms of waste (plenty of administrators should get the chop.)

And for the most part I'm not for cutting welfare. There is a lot of fraud that they should do something about but I don't object to the program. (I recently made a comment about leeches but that was in regard to immigration--I do have a problem with someone coming here and going on welfare. They're not our burden!)

You're the one who doesn't give a shit about them, you want to sacrifice the ones at the bottom to raise the pay of those somewhat higher up the ladder.
"The ones at the bottom" ALSO benefit from the rising minimum wage. For two important reasons
1) Higher wages for the same hours makes their labor more profitable
2) Higher wages for REDUCED hours gives them personal time they otherwise wouldn't have that can now be devoted to education, childcare, or a second job

Higher wages per hour but fewer hours = less total pay.

You should know that it is not actually possible for employers to specifically target and exclude "the ones at the bottom." They don't know who the "bottom ones" actually are. I realize YOU think you know who the "ones at the bottom" are, but that's because you live in a fantasyland safely insulated from reality.

Ones at the bottom = the ones that can only get a MW job.

Disagree--it bounces around the point it's tied to.
Which isn't a "fixed" ratio at all. That's a ratio that varies within some arbitrary limits defined only after the fact.

As usual, you get caught posting alternative facts (in this case, alternative definitions of words) and are now backpedaling to seem less wrong than you obviously are.

Think of someone walking a dog. The dog is on a spring leash, it can wander as it will but only to the extent of that leash and the leash keeps pulling it back to the center. That's what I'm saying the profit ratio is like--fixed to the dog walker even though the current value (the dog) wanders.
 
Indeed. It also motivates managers to try and get more productive work out of the employees they already have. The phrase "I'm paying you too much to sit on your ass and eat french fries all day" becomes a lot less ironic if you are actually paying your workers a decent wage. On the other hand, "They aren't paying me enough to put up with this shit" becomes that much LESS common.

You're assuming the quality of work is only related to the pay, not the person.
no, I'm saying the EXPECTATION of quality is related to pay, as reflected in the adage "You get what you pay for." If you are paying someone $15 an hour to run a cash register, then you should also expect this person to be EXTREMELY accurate in their count, make very few mistakes, provide very good customer service, be clear, be friendly, be punctual and be knowledgeable. If you expect none of these things, you will GET none of these things, and you are less likely to expect these things from an employee you are paying a shit wage to.

Except you continue to have a blind spot about unemployment.
You've asserted without evidence that "high" unemployment would result from ANY increase in the minimum wage. This does not appear to be the case. Even the highly questionable study you DID cite suggests that the problem was that the minimum was raised TOO QUICKLY and had negative as well as positive effects.

Just as importantly is the fact that reducing in work hours is not the same thing as unemployment and most companies are likely to cut their workers' hours to make up the loss than actually fire anyone. The reduction of work hours for the same wages is a feature, not a bug.

Cast the least valuable workers out of the labor pool and of course the quality of the labor pool goes up...
And who exactly are the least valuable workers in the labor pool? And how do prospective employers identify them?

Also, we have the very high unemployment rate amongst the workers at the bottom of the ladder--black teens. This is the expected result but proving a relationship is hard.
What makes you think the unemployment of black teenagers has anything to do with the minimum wage? Unless this is your answer to the above question that "black teens" are "the least valuable workers in the labor pool."

See me trying to defund schools? I have said that throwing money at the school problem won't do squat to solve it
Which was your argument for why increasing funding for schools that desperately need it was a bad idea. See how that works?

Higher wages per hour but fewer hours = less total pay.
Do you even math, bro?

$7/hour at 40 hours is $280/week.
$15/hour at 18.6 hours is $280/week.

You're making the same amount of money and spending a lot less time doing it. That's an extra 18 hours a week you can spend in night school to get an electrical engineering degree or a nursing certificate or whatever else you might try to do next. It's 18 hours a week you can spend helping your kids with their homework so they can have a better life than you did.

Of course, if you don't have kids or any real ambitions, you could probably just get a second job. So you now have TWO jobs working 19 hours a week, for a total of 38 hours a week, at $15/hour. Your weekly income is now $560 per week.

You should know that it is not actually possible for employers to specifically target and exclude "the ones at the bottom." They don't know who the "bottom ones" actually are. I realize YOU think you know who the "ones at the bottom" are, but that's because you live in a fantasyland safely insulated from reality.

Ones at the bottom = the ones that can only get a MW job.
How do employers know that a particular worker can only get a minimum wage job?

Think of someone walking a dog. The dog is on a spring leash, it can wander as it will but only to the extent of that leash and the leash keeps pulling it back to the center. That's what I'm saying the profit ratio is like--fixed to the dog walker even though the current value (the dog) wanders.
Right. So it's not fixed at all, it's highly variable within certain constraints.
 
You're assuming the quality of work is only related to the pay, not the person.
no, I'm saying the EXPECTATION of quality is related to pay, as reflected in the adage "You get what you pay for." If you are paying someone $15 an hour to run a cash register, then you should also expect this person to be EXTREMELY accurate in their count, make very few mistakes, provide very good customer service, be clear, be friendly, be punctual and be knowledgeable. If you expect none of these things, you will GET none of these things, and you are less likely to expect these things from an employee you are paying a shit wage to.

You get what you pay for because when you pay more you get to select the better people. When you force companies to pay more to everyone this goes away.

Except you continue to have a blind spot about unemployment.
You've asserted without evidence that "high" unemployment would result from ANY increase in the minimum wage. This does not appear to be the case. Even the highly questionable study you DID cite suggests that the problem was that the minimum was raised TOO QUICKLY and had negative as well as positive effects.

I haven't said you get high unemployment from any increase. I've said any real increase in the minimum wage (one that is above the market clearing price) causes some unemployment.

And Seattle said nothing about how fast it was raised, just that it was too high.

Just as importantly is the fact that reducing in work hours is not the same thing as unemployment and most companies are likely to cut their workers' hours to make up the loss than actually fire anyone. The reduction of work hours for the same wages is a feature, not a bug.

Reducing their paycheck is a feature?

Also, we have the very high unemployment rate amongst the workers at the bottom of the ladder--black teens. This is the expected result but proving a relationship is hard.
What makes you think the unemployment of black teenagers has anything to do with the minimum wage? Unless this is your answer to the above question that "black teens" are "the least valuable workers in the labor pool."

Statistically, they are.

See me trying to defund schools? I have said that throwing money at the school problem won't do squat to solve it
Which was your argument for why increasing funding for schools that desperately need it was a bad idea. See how that works?

I rejected your notions of increasing funding because the evidence shows that's just throwing away money. Spending more doesn't improve the outcome. Schools are far more a reflection of the students than a reflection of the funding.

Higher wages per hour but fewer hours = less total pay.
Do you even math, bro?

$7/hour at 40 hours is $280/week.
$15/hour at 18.6 hours is $280/week.

And you're assuming they still work 18.6 hours.

How do employers know that a particular worker can only get a minimum wage job?

The fact that they applied for a MW job.

Think of someone walking a dog. The dog is on a spring leash, it can wander as it will but only to the extent of that leash and the leash keeps pulling it back to the center. That's what I'm saying the profit ratio is like--fixed to the dog walker even though the current value (the dog) wanders.
Right. So it's not fixed at all, it's highly variable within certain constraints.

Yup--but the leash is quite short compared to the distance traveled. In the big picture it's a straight line.
 
no, I'm saying the EXPECTATION of quality is related to pay, as reflected in the adage "You get what you pay for." If you are paying someone $15 an hour to run a cash register, then you should also expect this person to be EXTREMELY accurate in their count, make very few mistakes, provide very good customer service, be clear, be friendly, be punctual and be knowledgeable. If you expect none of these things, you will GET none of these things, and you are less likely to expect these things from an employee you are paying a shit wage to.

You get what you pay for because when you pay more you get to select the better people. When you force companies to pay more to everyone this goes away.
No it doesn't. It simply forces them to select better people. And job seekers, knowing this, are forced to step their game up and BE better people when applying for those jobs.

I haven't said you get high unemployment from any increase. I've said any real increase in the minimum wage (one that is above the market clearing price) causes some unemployment.
What is the "market clearing price" for labor in Seattle? Please cite your source when answering.

Reducing their paycheck is a feature?
No, it's the same paycheck for fewer hours. Although in your case it might be a far smaller paycheck once your boss realizes you failed high school math.

Statistically, they are.
Are employers making hiring choices based on "statistics"?

I rejected your notions of increasing funding because the evidence shows that's just throwing away money. Spending more doesn't improve the outcome.
Which was your response when it was pointed out to you that those schools had had their budget reduced from previous decades. You replied "Spending money on students who don't want to learn is just wasted money and is unfair to the good students."

And you're assuming they still work 18.6 hours.
What do you mean "still"? They USED to work 40 hours. They got their hours cut in half because the employer didn't want the wage hike to interrupt his profit margins. Rather than fire one worker that he then has to replace during Rush periods, he just reduces them all to part-time hours and makes them work a lot harder while they're there. This is exactly what you claimed was going to happen, remember?

And it's not a "problem" at all. Those workers lost work hours -- as you predicted -- and now they have more free time to either reinvest in themselves or get a second job.

How do employers know that a particular worker can only get a minimum wage job?

The fact that they applied for a MW job.
How do employers know he only applies for minimum wage jobs? For all he knows, he's applying for a part-time job to fill the space after his first shift.

Of course, the manager DOESN'T know, and doesn't care. He has to judge applicants based on their character, prior work experience and demonstrable qualifications either in practice or on paper (resume, cover letter, references, etc).

Of course, you should know better than any man on this forum that the ability to obtain employment at higher than minimum has a lot more to do with attitude and presentation than it does with where and what you applied for.

Yup--but the leash is quite short compared to the distance traveled. In the big picture it's a straight line.

Dude, give it up. "Statistical trends" and "fixed values" are not the same thing. You don't have banks telling people "You have a fixed interest rate... it'll vary dramatically between 5 and 90%, but the statistical average will be about 20.7%."
 
You're describing exactly why I don't support increasing the minimum wage.

I don't think it's time yet for a universal basic income but I would like to see the government supplement low wage work--something along the lines of our earned income tax credit but larger.

Well,, then it's a good thing you base your economic policy decisions based on ideology instead of evidence, because the evidence doesn't support your claims.
 
You get what you pay for because when you pay more you get to select the better people. When you force companies to pay more to everyone this goes away.
No it doesn't. It simply forces them to select better people. And job seekers, knowing this, are forced to step their game up and BE better people when applying for those jobs.

If they could step up their game to be worth $15/hr they would have already done so and be making $15/hr. Thus your argument totally fails.

I haven't said you get high unemployment from any increase. I've said any real increase in the minimum wage (one that is above the market clearing price) causes some unemployment.
What is the "market clearing price" for labor in Seattle? Please cite your source when answering.

We don't know. The only time we know the market clearing price is when it's above the minimum wage.

Reducing their paycheck is a feature?
No, it's the same paycheck for fewer hours. Although in your case it might be a far smaller paycheck once your boss realizes you failed high school math.

The Seattle data says their paychecks got smaller. And I have two years of college math, the worst grade being a C (and that from misremembering one equation on the final. The next class quit worrying about memorizing formulas, we were allowed a certain book on all tests--including the one I messed up.)

Statistically, they are.
Are employers making hiring choices based on "statistics"?

No, but when the inputs (job applicants) have a skew so do the outputs (people hired.) The left has this fantasy that everyone is equally good, that it's only the luck of the draw that matters. That leads to numerous failures to understand reality.

And you're assuming they still work 18.6 hours.
What do you mean "still"? They USED to work 40 hours. They got their hours cut in half because the employer didn't want the wage hike to interrupt his profit margins. Rather than fire one worker that he then has to replace during Rush periods, he just reduces them all to part-time hours and makes them work a lot harder while they're there. This is exactly what you claimed was going to happen, remember?

You are assuming the hours worked were reduced such that the total pay remained the same. That's wishful thinking--in reality those reduced hours means the employer is going to make less which means the employer is going to pay less.

And it's not a "problem" at all. Those workers lost work hours -- as you predicted -- and now they have more free time to either reinvest in themselves or get a second job.

Only in your fantasyland.

How do employers know that a particular worker can only get a minimum wage job?

The fact that they applied for a MW job.
How do employers know he only applies for minimum wage jobs? For all he knows, he's applying for a part-time job to fill the space after his first shift.

Then you're saying he can only get a MW job for part time work.

Yup--but the leash is quite short compared to the distance traveled. In the big picture it's a straight line.

Dude, give it up. "Statistical trends" and "fixed values" are not the same thing. You don't have banks telling people "You have a fixed interest rate... it'll vary dramatically between 5 and 90%, but the statistical average will be about 20.7%."

Which would be a very wide variation. I'm thinking more along the lines of "Your initial interest rate is 3.75% and it will never go above 9.75%" While I can't find a site that will give me their adjustable rate mortgage terms without talking to a human I was able to find that FHA loans have a 6% increase cap and I'm combining that with ARM rates I found locally. Such loans are real.

- - - Updated - - -

You're describing exactly why I don't support increasing the minimum wage.

I don't think it's time yet for a universal basic income but I would like to see the government supplement low wage work--something along the lines of our earned income tax credit but larger.

Well,, then it's a good thing you base your economic policy decisions based on ideology instead of evidence, because the evidence doesn't support your claims.

I'm not the one using ideology.
 
No it doesn't. It simply forces them to select better people. And job seekers, knowing this, are forced to step their game up and BE better people when applying for those jobs.

If they could step up their game to be worth $15/hr they would have already done so and be making $15/hr.
If the hiring process involved the HR department scanning the barcode on your arm and getting an instant price quote on your actual value as a worker, this would be a good point.

In the real world, however, you don't really know for sure what an employee's work is worth until he's actually started working for you. You can MAKE AN ESTIMATE of his worth based on his experience, his personality, his background, and how he answers some basic interview questions. You can offer a low starting salary with an option for increase later if you think/hope he might be worth more to you than the average employee. Many (if not all) companies have a "probationary" period where it's understood that the employee is being evaluated to see how well he can do the job and might not have it at the end of the month after all. All of these are part of the "getting to know you" process of hiring, because employers cannot reliably estimate the value of total strangers.

So a black teenager fresh out of high school with no prior work experience has an easier time proving he's worth that $15/hour if the company can't legally pay him less than that. After a week of "trial employment" or some other process his employer sees his work and realizes "Hey, this kid's pretty smart! Takes direction well, speaks clearly and politely, is courteous to customers, is always on time and stays late when I need him to... let's keep him around!" His starting pay is now much higher than it EVER could have been without prior experience.

And even if the company only decides to hire him part time, that means his take-home is $15,000 a year rather than the $8,000 he would have gotten under the old minimum. That's still basically a poverty wage, but it's enough that if he has other means of support he could probably pay for college classes and raise his star even more. If he manages to get full-time employment, he's making $30,000 a year, which in most places is JUST enough to afford an apartment and a fairly humble existence while saving up for the future.


Now compare this teenager to his classmate who shows up late every day, badmouths the managers in front of customers, rolls his eyes when asked to do extra work, doesn't clean up after himself, uses a lot of profanity and is rude and unfriendly to his coworkers. This teenager isn't going to be hired. Not at $15/hour, not at $8/hour. ANY place he goes is going to fire him sooner or later unless he demonstrates that he can prove himself valuable to the company that hires him. They might use "minimum wage went up so you're fired" as a convenient excuse (and then write a thankyou letter to the local liberals for giving them that excuse) but if don't want him working for them, his not-being-expensive isn't going to count in his favor.


What is the "market clearing price" for labor in Seattle? Please cite your source when answering.

We don't know.
Then your argument is invalid.

The Seattle data says their paychecks got smaller.
No it does not.

Statistically, they are.
Are employers making hiring choices based on "statistics"?

No
Then your argument is invalid.

You are assuming the hours worked were reduced such that the total pay remained the same
No, YOU'RE assuming total hours were reduced such that total pay -- meaning, the share of that the company's revenue that goes to its employees that would otherwise subtract from profit -- remains the same. That's the entire basis of your argument: companies purchase less labor because they cannot absorb the price increase. Why would the increase in the price cause them to purchase less labor than they could previously afford?

Again, this is YOUR argument, not mine. My claim has been that managers who have any business sense at all will use the increased pat as a catalyst for workplace improvements, raising standards of quality and professionalism and, ultimately, raising productivity. Those companies are likely to fire their under-performing workers and replace them with new ones who are either better qualified, have more impressive references, or just plain interview better. And prospective employees get the sense that their employers are expecting a lot more of them will try that much harder to be impressive in an interview.

Have you ever seen someone wear a suit and tie to a minimum wage job interview? Raise the rate to $15, and you just might.

in reality those reduced hours means the employer is going to make less
You'll have to demonstrate that claim with some actual data. Otherwise, this appears to be invoking magic.

Then you're saying he can only get a MW job for part time work.
No, I'm saying he APPLIED to a Minimum wage job for (potentially) part time work. The employer doesn't know why and ultimately doesn't care. I've known high school teachers who worked minimum wage jobs in their spare time just for extra beer money.

Which would be a very wide variation. I'm thinking more along the lines of "Your initial interest rate is 3.75% and it will never go above 9.75%"
Which is, by definition, NOT a fixed rate. Any company that tried to call that a "fixed rate" would probably get sued.
 
If they could step up their game to be worth $15/hr they would have already done so and be making $15/hr.
If the hiring process involved the HR department scanning the barcode on your arm and getting an instant price quote on your actual value as a worker, this would be a good point.

In the real world, however, you don't really know for sure what an employee's work is worth until he's actually started working for you. You can MAKE AN ESTIMATE of his worth based on his experience, his personality, his background, and how he answers some basic interview questions. You can offer a low starting salary with an option for increase later if you think/hope he might be worth more to you than the average employee. Many (if not all) companies have a "probationary" period where it's understood that the employee is being evaluated to see how well he can do the job and might not have it at the end of the month after all. All of these are part of the "getting to know you" process of hiring, because employers cannot reliably estimate the value of total strangers.

You can make an estimate of his maximum value based on the job he's applying for.

So a black teenager fresh out of high school with no prior work experience has an easier time proving he's worth that $15/hour if the company can't legally pay him less than that. After a week of "trial employment" or some other process his employer sees his work and realizes "Hey, this kid's pretty smart! Takes direction well, speaks clearly and politely, is courteous to customers, is always on time and stays late when I need him to... let's keep him around!" His starting pay is now much higher than it EVER could have been without prior experience.

What are you smoking??? We are already seeing the effect--the black teen has a harder time proving they're worth the current minimum wage. Just look at black teen unemployment rates today.

Now compare this teenager to his classmate who shows up late every day, badmouths the managers in front of customers, rolls his eyes when asked to do extra work, doesn't clean up after himself, uses a lot of profanity and is rude and unfriendly to his coworkers. This teenager isn't going to be hired. Not at $15/hour, not at $8/hour. ANY place he goes is going to fire him sooner or later unless he demonstrates that he can prove himself valuable to the company that hires him. They might use "minimum wage went up so you're fired" as a convenient excuse (and then write a thankyou letter to the local liberals for giving them that excuse) but if don't want him working for them, his not-being-expensive isn't going to count in his favor.

But he's going to get fired much sooner at $15/hr.

What is the "market clearing price" for labor in Seattle? Please cite your source when answering.

We don't know.
Then your argument is invalid.

No. We know it's below the current minimum wage.

The Seattle data says their paychecks got smaller.
No it does not.

You really think he interpreted the data better than the researchers themselves?

Again, this is YOUR argument, not mine. My claim has been that managers who have any business sense at all will use the increased pat as a catalyst for workplace improvements, raising standards of quality and professionalism and, ultimately, raising productivity. Those companies are likely to fire their under-performing workers and replace them with new ones who are either better qualified, have more impressive references, or just plain interview better. And prospective employees get the sense that their employers are expecting a lot more of them will try that much harder to be impressive in an interview.

Have you ever seen someone wear a suit and tie to a minimum wage job interview? Raise the rate to $15, and you just might.

You have cause and effect backwards here.

Which would be a very wide variation. I'm thinking more along the lines of "Your initial interest rate is 3.75% and it will never go above 9.75%"
Which is, by definition, NOT a fixed rate. Any company that tried to call that a "fixed rate" would probably get sued.

You're griping about terminology, not addressing the true issue.
 
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