The Christian war on Christmas

[Underseer]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christian-evangelist-santa-alaska_us_5a263048e4b0f9f0203ecc54

Of course the "war on Christmas" thing is complete nonsense. A few of us want to make sure Jewish children don't feel all lonely and excluded at this time of year, so we go out of our way to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

Christians have decided that trying to not be mean to Jews somehow counts as "persecuting Christians," and so we have to talk about the "war on Christmas" every year, including discussions about whether or not a plain red coffee cup somehow counts as Christian persecution.

Of course, if you've read any of the more thoughtful pieces written on this topic, you already know that to the extent that there is a "war on Christmas," it comes from Christians. For example, one of the reasons the Puritans were kicked out of England was that they tried to ban Christmas.

Well, now we have a new entry in the Christian war on Christmas. Yee haw, 'yall!

Pastor David Grisham, a self-described Christian evangelist, taunted children and their parents who were waiting for a meeting with Kris Kringle at the Santa Claus House in North Pole, Alaska.

Sigh.

 

[sharon45]

“I wanted to tell you kids today too that god does not exist. God is not real,” Grisham announced. “The thing you’re praying to is merely a figment and it’s make-believe. It’s not real.”
“Your parents have been telling you a story that is not true,” he said. “There is no god, no Jesus.”
An employee interrupted Grisham's spiel and asked him not to interfere with the customers.
“I’m not interfering,” Grisham said. “I’m just telling them the truth.”

 

[Ford]

Of course, if you've read any of the more thoughtful pieces written on this topic, you already know that to the extent that there is a "war on Christmas," it comes from Christians.

I say it every year in one form or another. If you want your holidays to be literally "holy days," then it is up to you to make them so.

The Jewish people get it. Their holidays are holy. The Muslims get it. When's the last time you saw a Ramadan sale at Target?

Black Friday? Cyber Monday? Sorry, Christians, but that's all on you. The absurd light displays you put up on your houses? You can't blame that on atheists. And I fail to see what's "Christian" about waiting in line on Thanksgiving to buy a flat screen TV at Walmart when they open before your turkey is cold.

The "War on Christmas" is a self-inflicted wound.

 

[Angry Floof]

“I wanted to tell you kids today too that god does not exist. God is not real,” Grisham announced. “The thing you’re praying to is merely a figment and it’s make-believe. It’s not real.”
“Your parents have been telling you a story that is not true,” he said. “There is no god, no Jesus.”
An employee interrupted Grisham's spiel and asked him not to interfere with the customers.
“I’m not interfering,” Grisham said. “I’m just telling them the truth.”

Do you have any real life examples of this?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think this year I'll celebrate Chrestmas, not Christmas.

Hey, a man's got to plant seeds!

BTW... this guy...how do you say douchebag?

 

[sharon45]

“I wanted to tell you kids today too that god does not exist. God is not real,” Grisham announced. “The thing you’re praying to is merely a figment and it’s make-believe. It’s not real.”
“Your parents have been telling you a story that is not true,” he said. “There is no god, no Jesus.”
An employee interrupted Grisham's spiel and asked him not to interfere with the customers.
“I’m not interfering,” Grisham said. “I’m just telling them the truth.”

Do you have any real life examples of this?

Of course not, I just automatically saw the similarity in what Grisham was saying in this article.

 

[Angry Floof]

“I wanted to tell you kids today too that god does not exist. God is not real,” Grisham announced. “The thing you’re praying to is merely a figment and it’s make-believe. It’s not real.”
“Your parents have been telling you a story that is not true,” he said. “There is no god, no Jesus.”
An employee interrupted Grisham's spiel and asked him not to interfere with the customers.
“I’m not interfering,” Grisham said. “I’m just telling them the truth.”

Do you have any real life examples of this?

Of course not, I just automatically saw the similarity in what Grisham was saying in this article.

Similarity to what? There's an endless supply of real life Christians talking like this, in dictatorial, absolutist terms, and showing no respect or awareness of boundaries in attempting to indoctrinate everyone's kids.

If your underlying "both sides are teh same!" implication is true, you should find many real life examples of atheists and secularists who blatantly preach and indoctrinate like that.

 

[Elixir]

... you should find many real life examples of atheists and secularists who blatantly preach and indoctrinate like that.

There used to be some, but they were driven to extinction by well-meaning Christians determined to save their souls. Burning them at the stake usually does the trick.

 

[sharon45]

Of course not, I just automatically saw the similarity in what Grisham was saying in this article.

Similarity to what? There's an endless supply of real life Christians talking like this, in dictatorial, absolutist terms, and showing no respect or awareness of boundaries in attempting to indoctrinate everyone's kids.

If your underlying "both sides are teh same!" implication is true, you should find many real life examples of atheists and secularists who blatantly preach and indoctrinate like that.

I thought it was plain enough that I merely filled in my own words to show how stupid this guy looks talking badly about one myth, but gleefully accepting another as true.

 

[ZiprHead]

This fucking asshole...
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/4mf8d_DXIbA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Elixir]

This fucking asshole...
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/4mf8d_DXIbA[/YOUTUBE]

Lol!
"MY magic sky daddy exists and yours DOESN'T!"

What a stupid, cruel thing to do to little kids. Now, if someone undertook to disabuse this idiot of his own superstitions, that would be fair game.

 

[Angry Floof]

Of course not, I just automatically saw the similarity in what Grisham was saying in this article.

Similarity to what? There's an endless supply of real life Christians talking like this, in dictatorial, absolutist terms, and showing no respect or awareness of boundaries in attempting to indoctrinate everyone's kids.

If your underlying "both sides are teh same!" implication is true, you should find many real life examples of atheists and secularists who blatantly preach and indoctrinate like that.

I thought it was plain enough that I merely filled in my own words to show how stupid this guy looks talking badly about one myth, but gleefully accepting another as true.

What is the other myth?

 

[braces_for_impact]

I used to work in a mall, for Rosetta Stone. I was an area manager for Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin. My district manager was changed about halfway through my tenure there, and he came to visit me around Christmas time. He owned his own company, and was supposedly a life/professional coach. He couldn't resist commenting on Santa Claus every time we saw him at the mall, and explaining how Jesus was the reason for the season. I reported his ass, and it turns out someone else did too, apparently a Christian woman who had a pastor husband that didn't agree with is religious interpretations. Eventually, he was canned for that reason, and also for being a sexist asshole. I remembered him specifically because of this thread, and I looked him up on Twitter. Seems the "man of strong faith" is a total Trump Humper. Makes sense.

In my eyes, what little respect I had for evangelicals, and whatever moral authority they ever had has now been destroyed for all eternity because of their support for Trump. Look, if the Holy Spirit is whispering to you to follow Trump, what more proof do we need that religion does not make one moral? In fact, there's a damn good case to be made that it is quite the opposite.

Anyway, this man continuously expressed a wish to "save those children" from Santa. He actually called it child abuse. There's my anecdote.

 

[sharon45]

This fucking asshole...
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/4mf8d_DXIbA[/YOUTUBE]

Lol!
"MY magic sky daddy exists and yours DOESN'T!"

What a stupid, cruel thing to do to little kids. Now, if someone undertook to disabuse this idiot of his own superstitions, that would be fair game.

It's definitely stupid for him to trade one myth for another. When I was growing up, I already had quite enough of the god myth without people also trying to shove down their Santa myth as well.

 

[sharon45]

Anyway, this man continuously expressed a wish to "save those children" from Santa. He actually called it child abuse. There's my anecdote.

I'm sure not going to go nearly as far as that, but I don't think parents should mislead their children with religious or secular myths.

 

[Vork]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christian-evangelist-santa-alaska_us_5a263048e4b0f9f0203ecc54

Of course the "war on Christmas" thing is complete nonsense. A few of us want to make sure Jewish children don't feel all lonely and excluded at this time of year, so we go out of our way to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

Christians have decided that trying to not be mean to Jews somehow counts as "persecuting Christians," and so we have to talk about the "war on Christmas" every year, including discussions about whether or not a plain red coffee cup somehow counts as Christian persecution.

In the Western world, celebrating traditional Western holidays, including in their religious aspects, shouldn't be seen as "mean".

I wouldn't go to Israel and complain about the fact that Jewish religious holidays are a dominant part of the culture there. Same as, no Jew should be offended by Christian religious holidays being the dominant culture in the Western world. Actually, I'm guessing the average Jew can handle someone saying "Merry Christmas" to them, and the average Christian isn't being a jerk to say it.

There just isn't a need to be "inclusive" on this issue. We should be able to stick up a Christmas tree, or a Nativity scene, without feeling that every other religion needs equal access. If you really wanted to be truly "inclusive", the logical conclusion would be to get rid of our own traditional Western public holidays which are clearly Christian biased. Most aren't going to go that far however because they know how nuts it would seem.

 

[LordKiran]

Anyway, this man continuously expressed a wish to "save those children" from Santa. He actually called it child abuse. There's my anecdote.

I'm sure not going to go nearly as far as that, but I don't think parents should mislead their children with religious or secular myths.

[Armchair_Parent]Disagree. Children's imaginations should be indulged, but as they get older parents should take it upon themselves to explain the concept of santa and how he represents a certain aspect of the human spirit idolized once they're old enough for such adult concepts. You don't want your kids to figure out on their own because then they feel they can't trust you, then it becomes "Well what else are they lying about?"[/Armchair_Parent]

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Anyway, this man continuously expressed a wish to "save those children" from Santa. He actually called it child abuse. There's my anecdote.

I'm sure not going to go nearly as far as that, but I don't think parents should mislead their children with religious or secular myths.

[Armchair_Parent]Disagree. Children's imaginations should be indulged, but as they get older parents should take it upon themselves to explain the concept of santa and how he represents a certain aspect of the human spirit idolized once they're old enough for such adult concepts. You don't want your kids to figure out on their own because then they feel they can't trust you, then it becomes "Well what else are they lying about?"[/Armchair_Parent]

I cannot remember any of those childhood deconversions - Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa - did I miss any? So naturally I have no association between them and my parents. There could be subconscious aspects operating, however.

There were two popular fictions I remember discovering as a kid. One was that the Harlem Globetrotters were not a real basketball team, the other was that professional wrestling matches were not real competition. And those discoveries came about just talking with friends and watching these things on TV.

Religion is just another popular fiction. The difference is that states have enforced one popular fiction over another for all of human history. This is the problem, not that these stories are around.

Vork is right. We shouldn't give a shit when it comes to religion and religiously themed events, and we wouldn't if those fans of popular fiction we call religion did not have such a sordid past, and that we need to protect ourselves from.

 

[Angry Floof]

[Armchair_Parent]Disagree. Children's imaginations should be indulged, but as they get older parents should take it upon themselves to explain the concept of santa and how he represents a certain aspect of the human spirit idolized once they're old enough for such adult concepts. You don't want your kids to figure out on their own because then they feel they can't trust you, then it becomes "Well what else are they lying about?"[/Armchair_Parent]

I cannot remember any of those childhood deconversions - Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa - did I miss any? So naturally I have no association between them and my parents. There could be subconscious aspects operating, however.

There were two popular fictions I remember discovering as a kid. One was that the Harlem Globetrotters were not a real basketball team, the other was that professional wrestling matches were not real competition. And those discoveries came about just talking with friends and watching these things on TV.

Religion is just another popular fiction. The difference is that states have enforced one popular fiction over another for all of human history. This is the problem, not that these stories are around.

Vork is right. We shouldn't give a shit when it comes to religion and religiously themed events, and we wouldn't if those fans of popular fiction we call religion did not have such a sordid past, and that we need to protect ourselves from.

Religion certainly is not "just another popular fiction." It's a framework, a world view that applies to all aspects of life. It's often indoctrinated, as opposed to simply taught or told. Furthermore, it's a group identity often based in some idea of good vs. evil "spiritual war" that must be won through belief and obedience to the religious rules.

No one teaches a kid that their self worth as a human being depends on whether they believe in the Tooth Fairy or that they will burn for eternity if they don't put out cookies for Santa. Such people would be rightfully regarded as crazy abusers.

As for what kids should be taught about fiction, I say teach them all the fiction you want but also how to tell the difference, and help them to hone their imaginative skills as well as their critical skills.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

[Armchair_Parent]Disagree. Children's imaginations should be indulged, but as they get older parents should take it upon themselves to explain the concept of santa and how he represents a certain aspect of the human spirit idolized once they're old enough for such adult concepts. You don't want your kids to figure out on their own because then they feel they can't trust you, then it becomes "Well what else are they lying about?"[/Armchair_Parent]

I cannot remember any of those childhood deconversions - Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa - did I miss any?

Halloween - where you spend the other 364 days trying to convince your children that none of those things exist so they can go to sleep.

And then there's April Fools Day where you actively tell your kids lies to see if they can discover it on their own.

Perpetuating legends is more of a storytelling art than it is trustbuilding.

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