Nazi sympathizer profiled in New York Times loses job

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here's the real deal...

Tony Hovater's employer actually most likely knew they had a Nazi employee.

Hovater was one of the organizing members of the Aug 11-12 rallies in Charlottesville. His wife and brother-in-law, probably also went or had to explain to the employer where he was for 2 days. Or where they all were if they all went.

Hovater got national attention back in August from being featured in news articles and so you'd expect the employer to know about that, too:

For Tony Hovater, 29, of Dayton, Ohio, it came after he had dropped out of college and was touring with his metal band, for which he played drums, and he passed through the small towns of the Rust Belt and Appalachia. He started thinking that so much of the national narrative focuses on the plight of poor, urban minorities, but here was poverty as desperate as any he had seen, and yet no one was talking about poor whites. “You see how a complete system failed a group of people and didn’t take any responsibility for it and has done nothing to help,” he said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...5a3617c767b_story.html?utm_term=.2a6ca04faec6
Washington Post, August 19th

The reason so many people complained to the restaurant and were upset was because of his participation and organization (accountability) to the events that transpired and what that meant as a cook at the restaurant.

The restaurant did not consider his firing until Tony suggested it to them. Who knows what was actually stated and if there were threats if they came from the Right Wing Propaganda Machine or not.

In any case, afterward, Hovater had his racist friends start a funding through goyfundme.com (a parody to gofundme.com) where he has collected nearly $9,000.

 

[Hermit]

Look it is simple. Nazis are fucking evil.

It's actually not simple. No matter what belief someone might entertain, there'll be some employer somewhere who thinks they are evil because of it. You and I might disagree that a belief in communism, young earth creationism, southern baptism or any other belief under the sun (bar nazism) places the relevant believer beyond the pale, but you have exactly two chances of convincing the employer from the error of their ways. Meanwhile, as long as you grant employers the right to sack someone for being a nazi, other employers will arrogate that right to sack anybody for whatever other evil (in the employer's opinion) belief an employee of theirs holds on to.

Well, that's one side of the coin anyway. The other is that if I were an employer and discovered that an employee of mine was a nazi, he'd be an ex-employee in the shortest possible time. It wouldn't matter if I were operating a restaurant or a wire nail manufacturing plant either. Nor would it matter if the employee was good at his job. Fucked if I'd tolerate a nazi in my vicinity, let alone pay him or her. Of course I'd find a reason for firing the employee that would not involve anti-discrimination legislation. The employee might just become surplus to requirement, or something. Or maybe a couple of formal warning letters in quick succession concerning some failure to do the job right. The second letter will note that if there is another failure within the next twelve months, it will result in dismissal. Should be able to find one before long. A couple of weeks tops.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Guys, in the United States your politics is not one of the protected classes of things under anti-discrimination laws*....the exception probably being if you work for the government...and then it's indirect. So, if the government fires you for your political speech you may be able to make a legal argument about it and sue. In other countries, you may have more political freedom as a worker, but not in the U.S. if working for a private company with no govt contracts. You are called an at-will employee.** This is why the restaurant was able to fire Hovater with no legal consequence.

This is also why I challenged Emily Lake on her claim about management not discriminating here:

Really...so at your work you could not hire a Nazi as a manager if they refused to hire Jews?

That's because all the employees go through a diversity learning program, right?

Many places (especially those that want to have contracts with govt) implement a non-discrimination program/diversity program. If a manager does not comply, they could be fired. Think for a moment. That means as a logical consequence, a Nazi politic is being "discriminated" against, i.e. politics is not a class of protected thing.

Now, regardless of what the U.S. currently does or does not do, I do not generally support political discrimination. What I DO support is completely non-ideological. If a worker is an unacceptable risk to serving customers, then they should not serve customers. I do not care what their "ideologies" say from left/right/up/down perspective. If they are a genocidal maniac or serial killer, they are a risk to others in some kind of way that needs to be mitigated or disallowed, depending on the situation. Right now, in the U.S., it just happens to be a political reality that there is more to fear from racists than communists using an objective, non-ideological method of keeping customers and other workers safe.

*

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, sex, or ethnic origin; the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) prohibits discrimination against employees 40 years and older; and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of disabilities and requires that employers reasonably accommodate individuals with disabilities who can otherwise perform a job. As with other labor standards, independent contractors generally would not be covered by anti-discrimination laws.

https://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/...rk/conference/staffing/9.7_discrimination.htm

**

At-will employment is a term used in U.S. labor law for contractual relationships in which an employee can be dismissed by an employer for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning.[1] When an employee is acknowledged as being hired "at will," courts deny the employee any claim for loss resulting from the dismissal. The rule is justified by its proponents on the basis that an employee may be similarly entitled to leave his or her job without reason or warning.[2] In contrast, the practice is seen as unjust by those who view the employment relationship as characterized by inequality of bargaining power.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Look it is simple. Nazis are fucking evil.

It's actually not simple.

Actually, it is. Nazism is evil. The nazis marching with tiki torches in Virginia were chanting for the blood of Jews. That's evil.

 

[Hermit]

Look it is simple. Nazis are fucking evil.

It's actually not simple.

Actually, it is. Nazism is evil. The nazis marching with tiki torches in Virginia were chanting for the blood of Jews. That's evil.

Yes, Nazism is evil. That's simple enough, but if you read beyond the first five words of my post you might discover what I mean with "It's actually not simple".

 

[whichphilosophy]

Look it is simple. Nazis are fucking evil.

It's actually not simple. No matter what belief someone might entertain, there'll be some employer somewhere who thinks they are evil because of it. You and I might disagree that a belief in communism, young earth creationism, southern baptism or any other belief under the sun (bar nazism) places the relevant believer beyond the pale, but you have exactly two chances of convincing the employer from the error of their ways. Meanwhile, as long as you grant employers the right to sack someone for being a nazi, other employers will arrogate that right to sack anybody for whatever other evil (in the employer's opinion) belief an employee of theirs holds on to.

Well, that's one side of the coin anyway. The other is that if I were an employer and discovered that an employee of mine was a nazi, he'd be an ex-employee in the shortest possible time. It wouldn't matter if I were operating a restaurant or a wire nail manufacturing plant either. Nor would it matter if the employee was good at his job. Fucked if I'd tolerate a nazi in my vicinity, let alone pay him or her. Of course I'd find a reason for firing the employee that would not involve anti-discrimination legislation. The employee might just become surplus to requirement, or something. Or maybe a couple of formal warning letters in quick succession concerning some failure to do the job right. The second letter will note that if there is another failure within the next twelve months, it will result in dismissal. Should be able to find one before long. A couple of weeks tops.

The problem is purges have a habit of widening. It would then spread to less extremes till anyone right of Trotsky is a Nazi, though the word would fascist would be used.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actually, it is. Nazism is evil. The nazis marching with tiki torches in Virginia were chanting for the blood of Jews. That's evil.

Yes, Nazism is evil. That's simple enough, but if you read beyond the first five words of my post you might discover what I mean with "It's actually not simple".

See, that is the problem. A person adheres to evil Nazi principles, fuck 'em. See, that simple. That someone wants to write paragraphs as to why firing people who advocate for genocide is problematic is not of my concern.

 

[Hermit]

The problem is purges have a habit of widening. It would then spread to less extremes till anyone right of Trotsky is a Nazi, though the word would fascist would be used.

Martin Niemöller strikes again!

Yeah, whichp, having read up on McCarthyism a few decades ago, I am well aware of the thin wedge argument. Good old Joe's net was cast much, much wider than it would take to catch communist spies - or even just communists - or sympathisers of communism - or people with a vaguely socialist mindset - or... I am aware of the very real problem it constitutes, but in this case it does not cut the mustard. People who lovingly recreate the environment of 1930s Germany with their torches, Sieg Heil salutes and anti-Jewish slogans in their spare time, people who work towards the establishment of a modern-day Nazi regime will of course point to the US constitution that they say grants them the right to do as they will. Do you see nothing wrong and absurd in that? For what it's worth, I certainly do. These people are working towards the overthrow of the rights and freedoms they simultaneously use for their own protection. They are using democracy in order to destroy it. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Have you figured out how many million US citizens they would deny those rights and freedoms if they succeeded with their endeavour? They are the thin end of the wedge that must be hammered into oblivion before they hammer the rest of society.

 

[Hermit]

Actually, it is. Nazism is evil. The nazis marching with tiki torches in Virginia were chanting for the blood of Jews. That's evil.

Yes, Nazism is evil. That's simple enough, but if you read beyond the first five words of my post you might discover what I mean with "It's actually not simple".

See, that is the problem. A person adheres to evil Nazi principles, fuck 'em. See, that simple. That someone wants to write paragraphs as to why firing people who advocate for genocide is problematic is not of my concern.

You need to actually address the points I made in order to conduct a discussion. Until you do I see no point in replying.

 

[laughing dog]

We appear to agree on something - that you have no clue what you are posting about.

What started this particular line was post #61 where whichphilosophy wrote
This is a pity, since every idiot has a right demonstrate their asininity.Firing him in my view infringes his rights where the law should be amended.

And this was written clearly in the context of this particular Nazi sympathizer.

With that in mind, please explain what you straw men and hyperboles I have erected.

That's where there's a bit of strawmanning going on, laughing dog. You were arguing that idiots should be fired for being idiots. whichphilosophy disagreed with you on that, and you've transformed that into him defending naziism....

Wrong on all counts. I made neither argument. Hence your entire reply is based on your own strawmen.

 

[laughing dog]

Lol. What if the owners or some co-workers had family murdered by communists during the cold war? That would be plenty of grounds to fire someone who 1) is not Russian, 2) wasn't alive during the cold war, and 3) self-identifies as a communist. Yep. Makes perfect sense!

Except that there are many ways to be a communist and only one way to be a Nazi.

How about this - what if the owners or some co-workers had family murdered by the Spanish inquisition? That should be plenty of grounds to fire someone who 1) is not Spanish, 2) wasn't alive during the inquisition, and 3) self-identifies as a Catholic.

There would be no reason for anyone alive today to adhere to the tenets of the Spanish Inquisition. On the otherhand, Nazis hold to the tenets of Naziism. Your example is based on incoherent reasoning.

You clearly do not know anyone who survived the Holocaust or who had family killed by the Nazis. I do. Whether you believe it or not, it would be the traumatic for anyone of them to hire a know Nazi or to keep a known Nazi in their employment.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Written to Emily Lake:

You clearly do not know anyone who survived the Holocaust or who had family killed by the Nazis. I do. Whether you believe it or not, it would be the traumatic for anyone of them to hire a know Nazi or to keep a known Nazi in their employment.

I hadn't thought of that exact angle. I used to work with a Holocaust survivor. Suppose I became the owner of the company and/or hiring manager. If there were also a Nazi at work, I'd have to get him to another location or fire him.

However, that situation might never materialize. There was a diversity program at work. There may have been a signoff that occurred upon employment with H.R. to accept the diversity practices of the company. Such a person might not work for the company, unless he chose to lie, which I guess is also possible, but grounds for dismissal.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

See, that is the problem. A person adheres to evil Nazi principles, fuck 'em. See, that simple. That someone wants to write paragraphs as to why firing people who advocate for genocide is problematic is not of my concern.

You need to actually address the points I made in order to conduct a discussion. Until you do I see no point in replying.

I agree, there is no point. Defending the right to advocate genocide is despicable behavior, no matter how high of a pedestal you try to do it from.

 

[J842P]

See, that is the problem. A person adheres to evil Nazi principles, fuck 'em. See, that simple. That someone wants to write paragraphs as to why firing people who advocate for genocide is problematic is not of my concern.

You need to actually address the points I made in order to conduct a discussion. Until you do I see no point in replying.

I agree, there is no point. Defending the right to advocate genocide is despicable behavior, no matter how high of a pedestal you try to do it from.

Where have Hovater advocated genocide?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I agree, there is no point. Defending the right to advocate genocide is despicable behavior, no matter how high of a pedestal you try to do it from.

Where have Hovater advocated genocide?

That's the Nazi part.

 

[J842P]

I agree, there is no point. Defending the right to advocate genocide is despicable behavior, no matter how high of a pedestal you try to do it from.

Where have Hovater advocated genocide?

That's the Nazi part.

So, you cannot show where he has advocated for genocide?

 

[whichphilosophy]

We appear to agree on something - that you have no clue what you are posting about.

What started this particular line was post #61 where whichphilosophy wrote
This is a pity, since every idiot has a right demonstrate their asininity.Firing him in my view infringes his rights where the law should be amended.

And this was written clearly in the context of this particular Nazi sympathizer.

With that in mind, please explain what you straw men and hyperboles I have erected.

That's where there's a bit of strawmanning going on, laughing dog. You were arguing that idiots should be fired for being idiots. whichphilosophy disagreed with you on that, and you've transformed that into him defending naziism....

Wrong on all counts. I made neither argument. Hence your entire reply is based on your own strawmen.

You were arguing that idiots should be fired for being idiots and I disagreed.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Ladies and Gentlemen...

As a follow-up to my previous post here, it turns out that the "victim" in this story is actually a local politician.* He ran for office in 2016 as part of his party. He actually says he has always been a white nationalist which he said previously was only after he saw the conditions of Appalachia. Also, the restaurant would have known he was a politician who ran unsuccessfully for office as a racist.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/10/19/meet-new-wave-extremists-gearing-2016-elections

Part of their group's focus (not to mention on trying to appear mild to gain support) is to take over Appalachia by running for office and then seceding. What do you think they'll do with all the people who don't belong...you know the Jews and Blacks and other minorities who refuse to leave their self-proclaimed Homeland? Also, what's the transition plan before seceding for these groups?

*

Tony Hovater

City Council

New Carlisle, Ohio

Traditionalist Worker’s Party

Hovater, who met Heimbach at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington, D.C. in February of 2015, is the first political candidate for TWP.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's the Nazi part.

So, you cannot show where he has advocated for genocide?

That is all you have? He's a poor ole misunderstood white nationalist Nazi?

 

[J842P]

That's the Nazi part.

So, you cannot show where he has advocated for genocide?

That is all you have? He's a poor ole misunderstood white nationalist Nazi?

All I have what? You are the one claiming he advocates for genocide. Sounds like to me, you are the one with the burden to back up that claim, not me.