Did Jesus exist? (Poll)

[blastula]

What do you accept as confirmation of a story from that time period?

 

[ruby sparks]

Thanks to all who voted (so far). Good to see a range of opinions. 'Likely existed' and 'likely didn't exist' pretty much neck and neck.

 

[whollygoats]

Was there no historical Sai Baba because stories were told that he did magic?

Spiderman is real and historical because somebody told stories about him?

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Was there no historical Sai Baba because stories were told that he did magic?

Spiderman is real and historical because somebody told stories about him?

And, by your reckoning, Serapis and Mithras must have been historical, as well.

 

[none]

Thanks to all who voted (so far). Good to see a range of opinions. 'Likely existed' and 'likely didn't exist' pretty much neck and neck.

I thought I asked "Jesus who?", maybe you answered and I didn't see it
but for sake of conversation,
Jesus, who?

 

[ruby sparks]

Thanks to all who voted (so far). Good to see a range of opinions. 'Likely existed' and 'likely didn't exist' pretty much neck and neck.

I thought I asked "Jesus who?", maybe you answered and I didn't see it
but for sake of conversation,
Jesus, who?

Some deluded Jewish preacher guru guy from 1st Century Judea, who got killed by the Romans. Probably a bit of a troublemaker from the Roman pov (most likely at least somewhat more militant or seen to be associated with militants than later described, imo) and probably to a lesser extent from the pov of many in the Jewish establishment. Not even necessarily born with the name Jesus (though it was a common enough Jewish name at the time). Just one of several fringe Jewish wingnuts who started an initially small splinter movement/cult, this one eventually, after his death, to gain more followers than most and be called christianity, mostly due to a Hellenistic version of it being spread around the Roman/Greek part of the world by one of the non-Judean, non-original Jewish followers and his successors. Never especially popular in Judea, partly because some of the original followers probably got wiped out during the disastrous, failed war with the Romans in 66-73 AD.

 

[ruby sparks]

Thanks to all who voted (so far). Good to see a range of opinions. 'Likely existed' and 'likely didn't exist' pretty much neck and neck.

I thought I asked "Jesus who?", maybe you answered and I didn't see it
but for sake of conversation,
Jesus, who?

Some deluded Jewish preacher guru guy from 1st Century Judea, who got killed by the Romans. Probably a bit of a troublemaker from the Roman pov (most likely at least somewhat more militant or seen to be associated with militants than later described, imo) and probably to a lesser extent from the pov of many in the Jewish establishment. Not even necessarily born with the name Jesus (though it was a common enough Jewish name at the time).

Just one of several fringe Jewish wingnuts who started an initially small splinter religio-political movement, this one, after his death, to eventually gain more followers than most and be called christianity, mostly due to a Hellenistic version of it being gradually spread around the Roman/Greek parts of the ancient world by one of the non-Judean, non-original Jewish followers and his successors. Never especially popular in Judea, partly because some of the original followers probably got wiped out during the disastrous, failed war with the Romans in 66-73 AD and partly because it was considered heretical and/or pagan by most Judean Jews.

 

[whollygoats]

That real people write about believing in supernatural events is well documented.

yeah occam's razor, is it likely that a supernatural being was flesh recorded by an antagonist to the powers of justice at the time was invented for the purposes of deniability or historical??

You keep changing the subject, which is whether these people existed not whether magic powers exist. That real humans tell lies or delusions about other real people is a rather well documented.

That humans make up stories out of whole cloth about such entities is also rather well documented.

Why is it we should accept your rather well documented hypothesis over our rather well documented hypothesis?

 

[blastula]

I didn't say you should. What?

 

[none]

Thanks to all who voted (so far). Good to see a range of opinions. 'Likely existed' and 'likely didn't exist' pretty much neck and neck.

I thought I asked "Jesus who?", maybe you answered and I didn't see it
but for sake of conversation,
Jesus, who?

Some deluded Jewish preacher guru guy from 1st Century Judea, who got killed by the Romans. Probably a bit of a troublemaker from the Roman pov (most likely at least somewhat more militant or seen to be associated with militants than later described, imo) and probably to a lesser extent from the pov of many in the Jewish establishment. Not even necessarily born with the name Jesus (though it was a common enough Jewish name at the time).

Just one of several fringe Jewish wingnuts who started an initially small splinter religio-political movement, this one, after his death, to eventually gain more followers than most and be called christianity, mostly due to a Hellenistic version of it being gradually spread around the Roman/Greek parts of the ancient world by one of the non-Judean, non-original Jewish followers and his successors. Never especially popular in Judea, partly because some of the original followers probably got wiped out during the disastrous, failed war with the Romans in 66-73 AD and partly because it was considered heretical and/or pagan by most Judean Jews.

Biblical Jesus or a different Jesus?

 

[Wiploc]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

Because of the census story, I have a lightly-held belief that Jesus did exist.

We know that the census didn't happen. And we also know that the idea of sending Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to be counted is absurd. That kind of thing never happened.

What this suggests to me is that people knew Jesus was from Galilee, but prophesy required that he be from Bethlehem, so somebody cobbled up the fantastic census story as a way of claiming that a Galilean was also from Bethlehem.

I know that's not a strong argument. Nothing like compelling. But, to mind mind, it tips the scales in favor of believing that some real person named Jesus had to do with the formation of the myth.

 

[Kharakov]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

If Gods don't exist, what bullshitter made up the spacetime continuum?

 

[Wiploc]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

If Gods don't exist, what bullshitter made up the spacetime continuum?

If gods do exist, what bullshitter made up the gods?

Don't ask a gotcha question that you can't answer yourself.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

Because of the census story, I have a lightly-held belief that Jesus did exist.

We know that the census didn't happen. And we also know that the idea of sending Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to be counted is absurd. That kind of thing never happened.

What this suggests to me is that people knew Jesus was from Galilee, but prophesy required that he be from Bethlehem, so somebody cobbled up the fantastic census story as a way of claiming that a Galilean was also from Bethlehem.

I know that's not a strong argument. Nothing like compelling. But, to mind mind, it tips the scales in favor of believing that some real person named Jesus had to do with the formation of the myth.

To me it only indicates someone may have believed the story was real. Bigfoot fiction is no different.

 

[bilby]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

If Gods don't exist, what bullshitter made up the spacetime continuum?

Bert Einstein, the patent office clerk.

 

[Ford]

I think it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the guy behind the legend was real.

Of course he wasn't the Messiah or the Son of God, but I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an itinerant preacher whose story got blown way out of proportion.

 

[Wiploc]

I'm a strong atheist (I believe that gods do not exist).

Because of the census story, I have a lightly-held belief that Jesus did exist.

We know that the census didn't happen. And we also know that the idea of sending Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to be counted is absurd. That kind of thing never happened.

What this suggests to me is that people knew Jesus was from Galilee, but prophesy required that he be from Bethlehem, so somebody cobbled up the fantastic census story as a way of claiming that a Galilean was also from Bethlehem.

I know that's not a strong argument. Nothing like compelling. But, to mind mind, it tips the scales in favor of believing that some real person named Jesus had to do with the formation of the myth.

To me it only indicates someone may have believed the story was real. Bigfoot fiction is no different.

Good point.

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I think it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the guy behind the legend was real.

Of course he wasn't the Messiah or the Son of God, but I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an itinerant preacher whose story got blown way out of proportion.

You skipped a step.

It wouldn't do to "accept the existence" of everything that isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[Juma]

I think it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the guy behind the legend was real.

Of course he wasn't the Messiah or the Son of God, but I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an itinerant preacher whose story got blown way out of proportion.

I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an male person whose story got blown way out of proportion.

I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an human whose story got blown way out of proportion.


I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an animal whose story got blown way out of proportion.

...

I don't see a problem with accepting the existence of an object whose story got blown way out of proportion.


...

Not really interesting...

 

[Ford]

Back to the OP:

In strict terms, the question is, 'do you think that the figure called Jesus existed?' This allows for cases where someone thinks the name itself was added later, but would allow for a figure who at least existed and did at least some of the things attributed to the figure given that name.

I'm fairly certain that a guy named Jesus didn't turn water into wine. Or cure leprosy. Was there someone named something close to "Jesus" that maybe sold himself as a messiah and wound up at the center of these myths?

The latter part doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility.

But apparently that's not interesting.

 

[ruby sparks]

Back to the OP:

In strict terms, the question is, 'do you think that the figure called Jesus existed?' This allows for cases where someone thinks the name itself was added later, but would allow for a figure who at least existed and did at least some of the things attributed to the figure given that name.

I'm fairly certain that a guy named Jesus didn't turn water into wine. Or cure leprosy. Was there someone named something close to "Jesus" that maybe sold himself as a messiah and wound up at the center of these myths?

The latter part doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility.

But apparently that's not interesting.

It's not sexy enough. Not mysterious enough. There's not enough conspiracy for some. For others there's too much woo. 'Jesus probably existed' is just too boring.

Other messianic claimants and cult-starters existed, including several of that time (none of whom wrote anything and for whom we have no 1st hand accounts) and dozens if not hundreds of magic men since then, but not this one. There's a lot of special pleading, imo. In an odd way, Jesus is special, ironically. Jesus mythicism thrives on internet atheist forums. Go figure.

 

[Hermit]

1.) An individual named Jesus may have been one of the dime a dozen messiahs that infested the period he is said to have lived in, and many stories were subsequently spun concerning his life and deeds. Like William Wallace later on perhaps, but with bonus miracles added.

2.) Jesus may have been an amalgam of several real life persons about which many stories were subsequently spun. Ian Fleming's James Bond was one of those.

3.) Jesus was possibly 100% invention.

As a de facto atheist I could not care less which is the case, which is why I did not bother voting in the poll.