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Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

He doesn't have to suggest that at all. Given that she is both black and a woman, she is OBVIOUSLY a liar.

No, the feminist left assumes that a black woman automatically tells the truth (see response to Duke Lacrosse where the claim was explicit that since she was an underprivileged black woman of course she is to be believed over the privileged white men) whereas I suggest she may not be telling the truth because of her relationship with the shootee rather than because of her gender or race.

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This, too, is somehow relevant.
Relevant to the race-baiting claim that open carrying blacks are killed on sight by the police.
 
Witness statements are evidence. Especially statements by disinterested witnesses.

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?
That is very possible since his girlfriend is not an impartial, disinterested witness but rather she has a vested interest in making Crawford look good.
And the two busy-bodies that got him killed were not impartial, disinterested witnesses either. They stalked him through the store and told conflicting accounts of his actions.

Ironically, however, that the woman's version actually matches the girlfriend's version pretty closely:

“I heard, ‘put it down, put it down,’ ” April Ritchie said. “I heard two shots after I saw him turn. He still had the weapon in his hand.”
Sounds like April Ritchie rather supports Leecee Johnson's contention that the police didn't even give Crawford the opportunity to put the non-gun down.
 
I am not defending the cops who shot him. I am just pointing out that the air rifle was not a toy and that air rifles can, and do, seriously injure and kill people.

I would counter that by describing air rifles as potentially deadly weapons you are offering up an excuse for the deadly force involved.

Leaving aside for a moment the "toy" characterization, and accepting that - under relatively rare circumstances - an air rifle can cause serious injury, does that justify a deadly force response from and LEO?

I mean maybe if the perp was pointing the air rifle at a kid's eye and saying "I'm gonna kill this motherfucking kid if you come closer."

But "hey, it ain't even a real gun" BLAMMO.


Unless of course you're telling me that trained police officers can't tell the difference between an air rifle and an assault rifle?

They are potentially deadly weapons, and depending on what happened that could indeed be a possible excuse for the use of deadly force. Without any information as of yet, it is impossible to say.

That doesn't mean they should treat him like he was carrying an AK-47, nor does it mean that he was waving the equivalent of a NERF gun around.
 
In related news, President Obama has just announced that, in addition to air strikes, the US will be arming ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq with American air rifles.

A Defense Department spokesman, speaking anonymously, said "contrary to popular opinion, these arms are potentially very dangerous, and they look like the real thing, too. Within a few weeks we expect our intelligence officers in the field to be reporting numerous instances of ISIS fighters having their eyes shot out."
 
Witness statements are evidence. Especially statements by disinterested witnesses.

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?
That is very possible since his girlfriend is not an impartial, disinterested witness but rather she has a vested interest in making Crawford look good.

And the Walmart busybody whose 9/11 call escalated to an innocent man getting shot and killed by police officers has no reason whatsoever to try and cover her own ass.:slowclap:
 
And the two busy-bodies that got him killed were not impartial, disinterested witnesses either.
Since they had no prior relationship to Crawford nor do they stand to gain or lose by the outcome of the investigation then yes they were.

They stalked him through the store
Yet another word that doesn't mean what you think it means but we discussed that ad nauseam in the Tray-Von Martin threads.

Ironically, however, that the woman's version actually matches the girlfriend's version pretty closely:
Does it? The witness says that after he was ordered to put it down after which he turned while still holding the weapon. There is no indication as to how much time passed between the order and the shooting, but it does seem he was shot immediately after turning. Presumably it is this that the officers perceived as threatening enough to open fire. The question would be where the muzzle was pointing while he was turning.

Sounds like April Ritchie rather supports Leecee Johnson's contention that the police didn't even give Crawford the opportunity to put the non-gun down.
Doesn't sound like that to me. There is no indication how much time lapsed, only that he turned instead of dropping the gun.

All that said, I'd love to see CCTV camera footage. It should put quite a few questions and speculations to rest.
 
Relevant to the race-baiting claim that open carrying blacks are killed on sight by the police.

You are technically correct: carrying a weapon is not actually necessary to illicit that response.

You're also correct that Huey Newton was never shot and killed by police officers for open-carrying. This is because 1) he wasn't open-carrying when he was shot and 2) he survived.
 
They stalked him through the store
Yet another word that doesn't mean what you think it means but we discussed that ad nauseam in the Tray-Von Martin threads.

Instead of derailing this thread with another round of semantic quibbling, why don't we all agree to use the same term for something that is more than merely following but less than full blown stalking? I nominate "falked".

April and Ronald Ritchie falked John Crawford at a Wal-Mart store, thinking he was a threat due to Crawford's fiddling with a pellet gun as he shopped and talked on his cell phone. Wal-Mart employees and other customers were unconcerned, perhaps because they recognized that Crawford had a right to openly carry store merchandise. After falking Crawford for several minutes the police they had summoned arrived and shot Crawford dead.

This reminds me of the shooting of Andy Lopez. The kid was carrying a pellet gun when cops saw him and mistook it for an assault rifle. They shouted at him to drop the weapon but of course, a kid with a pellet gun isn't going to know he's the one the cops are after. So he turned with the pellet gun still in his hands and they shot him dead.

I doubt most Wal-Mart customers thinking about buying an air rifle expect the cops to come after them, even if they've been falked by a couple of suspicious looking shoppers.
 
There have been many such cases in India and law has been harsh on the culprits. 18 Police officers were given whole-life sentences for the linked case, as death sentence in India is for 'rarest or rare' cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Dehradun_Encounter

275902b6-2a1d-433f-9be8-541b0da0c16ewallpaper1.jpg

Connought Place Fake Encounter: The Supreme Court dismissed the appeal field by police officials and upheld the conviction and life sentence of 10 Delhi policemen. http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/CP-Fake-Encounter-A-Chronology/720762
 
Yet another word that doesn't mean what you think it means but we discussed that ad nauseam in the Tray-Von Martin threads.

Instead of derailing this thread with another round of semantic quibbling, why don't we all agree to use the same term for something that is more than merely following but less than full blown stalking? I nominate "falked".

April and Ronald Ritchie falked John Crawford at a Wal-Mart store, thinking he was a threat due to Crawford's fiddling with a pellet gun as he shopped and talked on his cell phone. Wal-Mart employees and other customers were unconcerned, perhaps because they recognized that Crawford had a right to openly carry store merchandise. After falking Crawford for several minutes the police they had summoned arrived and shot Crawford dead.

This reminds me of the shooting of Andy Lopez. The kid was carrying a pellet gun when cops saw him and mistook it for an assault rifle. They shouted at him to drop the weapon but of course, a kid with a pellet gun isn't going to know he's the one the cops are after. So he turned with the pellet gun still in his hands and they shot him dead.

I doubt most Wal-Mart customers thinking about buying an air rifle expect the cops to come after them, even if they've been falked by a couple of suspicious looking shoppers.

Gun-grabber! Why do you hate our freedom? [/conservolibertarian]
 
If there's a post on this forum about the police killing someone, it's going to be pretty easy to guess the victim's race.

What makes it even easier is when your article quote opens with "We was..."


I was raised not all that far from this area. I was raised on 'we was,' pronounced 'we wuz.' Ain't no racial component to it. It's just fairly common conversational dialect.


But at least you didn't mention that the dead guy's wife children's mother is named LeeCee.

Really? I mean: really.
 
Several things wrong here:
- not a toy gun.
- didn't simply "pick it up". He had had to unpack it from its box.
- he wasn't shot on sight.

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Well now we know what still happens to black men who want to "open carry". And we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Derec and Loren will place all blame on the black man for getting himself shot.
Is this guy dead?
LL


And yes, the WalMart guy behaved rather stupidly.



I find it amazing that a black secret service agent isn't shot on sight. Definitely evidence that we are living in a post-racial society.

I don't find it amazing that Derec failed to identify the man in the photo as a Secret Service Agent on detail.
 
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I was raised not all that far from this area. I was raised on 'we was,' pronounced 'we wuz.' Ain't no racial component to it. It's just fairly common conversational dialect.


But at least you didn't mention that the dead guy's wife children's mother is named LeeCee.

Really? I mean: really.
whatever you think of baby mama's grammar skills and name, she has been caught in two lies already:
LeeCee said:
“We was just talking. He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were. And the next thing I know, he said ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him,” she said, adding: “And I could hear him just crying and screaming. I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human.”
For one, we know that it was not a toy gun and thus was not sold in the toy aisle, but rather a small game hunting air rifle sold in the sporting goods aisle. Second, "next thing I know" implies that the shooting happened immediately after he picked up the gun from the shelf. But we know that was walking around the store with it, waving it around, before the concerned customer called 911 and it would have been some time between the 911 call and the arrival of the police.

And by the way, I wonder how quick the family, the girlfriend and the baby mama will hire some shyster and sue.
 
No he wasn't. He was waving around an air rifle that shoots 0.177 caliber pellets at 800 fps and that is used for hunting small animals. That is most definitely not a toy, not sold in the toy section and also lacks the brightly colored tip common for toy guns. It is also made to look similar to an assault rifle.

A couple weeks ago here in Phoenix, a gun rights advocate took it upon himself to carry a loaded AR-15 into the airport and "waved it around."
Got a medal for it did he? Or was he arrested and charged?

Definitely not shot dead.
 
Definitely not shot dead.
Maybe because he was not too busy talking with the baby mama to acknowledge there is police around and actually complied with their orders.
But no, there is no other explanation than race. :rolleyes:
 
Definitely not shot dead.
Maybe because he was not too busy talking with the baby mama to acknowledge there is police around and actually complied with their orders.
But no, there is no other explanation than race. :rolleyes:

There is no explanation other than race for your use of the slang phrase "baby mama" to describe Crawford's girlfriend, just as there was no reason other than race for you to describe a townhouse in a gated community as a certain someone's father's shorty's crib. There might be an explanation other than race for your belief Crawford knew the cops were after him even though he had done nothing wrong, but race is the most likely one. He was a black man carrying store merchandise so the second the cops showed up he should have dropped the merch, put his hands on his head, and knelt on the floor, amirite?
 
We can argue about whether or not police is wrong but one thing is sure - the guy was stupid.
 
Some more embellishments and race-tainting by Derec in this thread:

And it wasn't a "toy" he was brandishing, and consequently it wasn't in the toy section, but rather in sporting goods section (as guns like those are used to hunt birds and small game). Why the dead guy decided to unpack the air rifle and wave it around while he was on the phone with his baby mama we will never know I guess.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford was "brandishing" the weapon. Not even the most prejudicial *witness* statement says he was "brandishing" it.

Derec has zero evidence as to what department this air-rifle was actually in at this particular store. He only has his biased assumptions, which he is now repeating as if they are facts.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford "unpacked" the air-rifle. That is again Derec's biased assumption that he is now repeating as fact.

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford was "waiving it around" - even the *witness* statement says he had it cradled in his arms.

Derec's repeated use of the term "baby mama" is pure unadulterated race-baiting - as is his use of "thug" or "thuggish" and his butchering of black victim's names

Several things wrong here:
- not a toy gun.
- didn't simply "pick it up". He had had to unpack it from its box.
- he wasn't shot on sight..

Derec has zero evidence that Crawford unpacked anything from its box, but here he is embellishing the facts to blame the dead victim.

No "compared. What is relevant is that he was brandishing an air rifle, the air rifle, while not-a-toy and dangerous in its own right was made to look like an actual assault rifle, and that he failed to comply with police orders to drop it.

Derec again embellishing in a prejudicial manner with his use of the word "brandishing". For someone who is allegedly such a stickler for the proper use of words, Derec consistently chooses them to blame the dead victims.

Derec also has zero evidence that Crawford "failed to comply with police orders to drop it". We do have two witness statements that the shots came immediately after the commands, so it sounds more like Crawford was not given time to comply. But Derec chooses to blame the dead black victim by portraying events as "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it."
whatever you think of baby mama's grammar skills and name, she has been caught in two lies already:
LeeCee said:
“We was just talking. He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were. And the next thing I know, he said ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him,” she said, adding: “And I could hear him just crying and screaming. I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human.”
For one, we know that it was not a toy gun and thus was not sold in the toy aisle, but rather a small game hunting air rifle sold in the sporting goods aisle. Second, "next thing I know" implies that the shooting happened immediately after he picked up the gun from the shelf. But we know that was walking around the store with it, waving it around, before the concerned customer called 911 and it would have been some time between the 911 call and the arrival of the police.

And by the way, I wonder how quick the family, the girlfriend and the baby mama will hire some shyster and sue.

Derec is again race-baiting with his use of "baby mama" instead of the young woman's actual name. He could have left it as "girlfriend" but he had to add four extra words in to continue with his race-baiting.

Derec race-baiting with his comments about grammar and comments about Leecee's name.

Derec embellishing the facts with his claim that "we know that it... was not sold in the toy aisle". We "know" no such thing. That has been Derec's speculation, not a fact presented in this case so far. As such, to call LeeCee a "liar" is factually wrong but consistent with Derec's long-held pattern of using the harshest possible terms for witnesses for the dead black victims. Moreover, it is even possible that LeeCee (or Crawford) was mistaken about the department the air-rifle was it. At my local Target, the toy and sports departments are side-by-side and tend to overlap. But Derec immediately, prejudicially and predicatably leaps to the accusation that the dead victim's girlfriend is a liar.

Derec embellishes the facts by claiming LeeCee is a liar because DEREC assumes that her use of the phrase "next thing I know" somehow "implies" a specific period of time. Derec has absolutely zero factual basis for his assumption, but he acts on his own biased beliefs to call the dead victim's girlfriend a liar.

Derec is race-baiting with his use of the word "shyster" for "lawyer". In Derec's very long history on this board and it's predecessors, Derec has only ever used the word "shyster" for a lawyer hired by a black family, with the lawyer typically being also black. This, along with his constant, consistent use of "baby mama" and various forms of "thug" to describe black people, and only black people, goes along with Derec's purposeful butchering of black victim's names is creating a long and consistent pattern of race-baiting on Derec's part. I, for one, am sick of it.

Maybe because he was not too busy talking with the baby mama to acknowledge there is police around and actually complied with their orders. But no, there is no other explanation than race. :rolleyes:

Frankly, Derec's own choice of words and arguments throughout this thread make it very very clear that there really is no other explanation other than race. None of the rest of us even need to say anything at all. Derec has already made that case clearly for us.
 
There is no explanation other than race for your use of the slang phrase "baby mama" to describe Crawford's girlfriend,
1. "Baby mama" is a very common slang phrase and describes LeeCee well. Why should I not use it?
2. The girlfriend (Tasha) and the baby mama (LeeCee) are two different individuals, consistent with the definition of "baby mama" as "the mother of your child(ren), whom you did not marry and with whom you are not currently involved." The girlfriend was in the store but elsewhere and did not see anything and the baby mama was on the phone with Crawford so while she could hear things, she didn't see anything either.

just as there was no reason other than race for you to describe a townhouse in a gated community as a certain someone's father's shorty's crib.
By way of clarifying the nature of the dwelling as many posters and even outside commentaries labored under the misapprehension that Trayvon actually lived there (and thus should have been known to neighbors) rather than merely visiting there. I admit, the specific language used was largely to get a rise out of the PC crowd. It worked beyond my wildest dreams I must say. :)
It is very different from "baby mama" though, as this is a very common slang term and not really racial.

There might be an explanation other than race for your belief Crawford knew the cops were after him even though he had done nothing wrong, but race is the most likely one.
Cops showing up and telling him to drop the rifle should have been a clue.

He was a black man carrying store merchandise so the second the cops showed up he should have dropped the merch, put his hands on his head, and knelt on the floor, amirite?
He wasn't just "carrying store merchandise" (which he could have done while leaving the rifle in its box). He was waving a potentially fatal (but certainly dangerous) hunting air rifle around, at times pointing it toward other customers.
 
1. "Baby mama" is a very common slang phrase and describes LeeCee well. Why should I not use it?
2. The girlfriend (Tasha) and the baby mama (LeeCee) are two different individuals, consistent with the definition of "baby mama" as "the mother of your child(ren), whom you did not marry and with whom you are not currently involved." The girlfriend was in the store but elsewhere and did not see anything and the baby mama was on the phone with Crawford so while she could hear things, she didn't see anything either.

just as there was no reason other than race for you to describe a townhouse in a gated community as a certain someone's father's shorty's crib.
By way of clarifying the nature of the dwelling as many posters and even outside commentaries labored under the misapprehension that Trayvon actually lived there (and thus should have been known to neighbors) rather than merely visiting there. I admit, the specific language used was largely to get a rise out of the PC crowd. It worked beyond my wildest dreams I must say. :)

Confirmation, as if anyone actually needed it, that Derec is an attention whore.

It is very different from "baby mama" though, as this is a very common slang term and not really racial.

Usually there is a racial component. Almost invariably derogatory. I know of not one single person IRL who uses this term.


There might be an explanation other than race for your belief Crawford knew the cops were after him even though he had done nothing wrong, but race is the most likely one.
Cops showing up and telling him to drop the rifle should have been a clue.

There is no consensus about the timing of events--whether they told him to drop the bb gun before or after they fired.

And that has nothing to do with your belief.

So a man walks into a store with his current girlfriend and moves from the video game aisle to the toy aisle. I don't frequent Walmart and have never been in this particular one so I cannot state with authority that the toy aisle, video games aisle and the weapons are located near one another. One would think that common sense would place all types of firearms very distant from both the toy aisle and the video games aisle, but this is Walmart.

He says he's going to the toy aisle and either calls his ex or is called by her and is talking with her on the phone, with the bb gun in his hands. Other customers are around and no one looks alarmed or upset except the woman in the scooter who is also on the phone to her mother and decides, along with her husband, that this guy is up to no good, as all black men must be. So she calls the police who arrive, thinking there is a dangerous shooter situation.

The man who is distracted, with a toy gun in his hand, talking to his ex suddenly is confronted by police with weapons drawn. I guess it is a capital offense not to immediately realize that as a black man with a toy gun in a discount store that you must be perceived to be armed and extremely dangerous by anyone with any sense at all and especially anyone with a cell phone or a badge and must immediately switch gears from talking to your ex to realizing that you are perceived as a threat and are being confronted by armed police officers who are demanding you drop your weapon (which you didn't know you had). I mean, we all know that black folks have lightening fast reflexes due to their superior athletic abilities but it seems like the cops were pretty darn quick to fire.

BTW, when my father purchased an air rifle for my son (with permission from both parents), it was indeed found on the edge of the toy aisle as the aisles transitioned from toys to sporting goods. This was in a different discount chain store than Walmart.

He wasn't just "carrying store merchandise" (which he could have done while leaving the rifle in its box). He was waving a potentially fatal (but certainly dangerous) hunting air rifle around, at times pointing it toward other customers.

So, aside from the chick with the broken ankle who was riding around in a scooter while talking to her mom and her husband, exactly who else of the many customers in Walmart were alarmed by this man? Before the cops arrived.
 
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