Mueller investigation

[Malintent]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/09/politics/michael-cohen-fbi/index.html

FBI raids Michael Cohen's office!

Here is the original article that the CNN report referred to F.B.I. Raids Office of Trump's Longtime Lawyer Michael Cohen. The raid was conducted by the US Attorney of the Southern District of New York on a referral from the Mueller investigation. Some of the seized records may contain privileged communications between Trump and Cohen, so a special team of investigators have been assigned to process the evidence, presumably to cull out such records. I have a feeling that attorney-client privilege is going to be a serious issue in the aftermath of this raid, so it looks like they have strong evidence that Cohen committed a crime. Otherwise, they would not dare such a raid.

Not sure if this was yet mentioned, but in order to get a search warrant (a "no knock" warrant, no less) there are numerous hoops to jump through. The district attorney themselves must sign off (a Trump appointed official), a federal magistrate (judge - in this case, a republican), and one other official (I do not recall). All of that in ADDITION to the facts of the case being compelling to issue the warrant.

As I have heard (not confirmed by me) this has happened only two other times in US history (an attorney being "raided" with a "no knock" search warrant). both of the other times ended with the attorney being "raided" going to prison for federal crimes.

The justification to get this warrant MUST have included evidence that NOT ONLY Cohen would not hand over documents requested, but if they showed up at his door that he would likely destroy the evidence... thus, "no knock"... they bash in the door with guns drawn and seize everything.

Cohen IS going to prison. That much must have been established prior to getting this type of order against this type of person... at least, that is what whatever evidence they presented would have had to have shown.

 

[Elixir]

Cohen IS going to prison. That much must have been established prior to getting this type of order against this type of person... at least, that is what whatever evidence they presented would have had to have shown.

It will be interesting when Trump comes out with his standard "I hardly knew the guy".

 

[poster]

Let's get something straight. I have never made the claim of being an expert on the law. I am an average US citizen trying to make hands and tales of the situation. I am not employed by any legal firm nor do I have any formal education in the law.

How about the rest of you that have been participating in this discussion? Any lawyers or trained legal minds among you?

I am a trained and certified forensic investigator that works with Lawyers and other investigators frequently... The General Counsel for multi-billion dollar international companies, type of lawyers. You, poster, are completely wrong about every opinion you expressed in this thread that I have commented back to you on. Your "imagination" on how things should be in your mind is "Hollywood Law". EVERYTHING you think you know about this is just a scratch on the surface of the reality of it. I'm not saying I know everything, just what is public record. I also maintain the ability to separate wishes from observations, as well as the actual law from how I personally would like the law to be... or how it was portrayed in my favorite episode of LA Law.

And further, if I may, you are wholly inconsistent. You grant your tribe the benefit of the doubt, as our laws should provide to all (innocent until proven guilty), however you revoke this foundational premise when referring to members of a different tribe. Trump is an innocent victim no matter what, and those protecting our nation by enforcing the law are maniacal fascists no matter what.

You know how you could be an impressive person worth the attention of those you are speaking to? Learn. Have humility with what you do not know to be true. Have the competency to site the sources of your knowledge AS WELL as the ability to support the source is sound.

If I tell you that it is insecure to have less than 6 characters in a password, and you ask me why, I should be able to site NIST and SANS documentation to show you, AND tell you what NIST and SANS are and what they do, and how their information is used and by whom.

If you pass on knowledge for which you cannot do the above, you are either being intentionally dishonest for your own ends, or you are just being a fool, following another fool.

So that would be a "no" then?

 

[poster]

Let's get something straight. I have never made the claim of being an expert on the law. I am an average US citizen trying to make hands and tales of the situation. I am not employed by any legal firm nor do I have any formal education in the law.

I don’t know how much of that I don’t believe.

It is...

Show

(how do you say in American?)

...the truth!

 

[Elixir]

I don’t know how much of that I don’t believe.

It is...

Show

(how do you say in American?)

...the truth!

I'm pretty sure that "an average American citizen" knows how to say stuff in American English...

 

[Angry Floof]

trying to make hands and tales of the situation.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "make heads or tails of."

I am an average US citizen

That's exactly what a Russian troll would say.

 

[poster]

I would call it general's arrogance rather than stupidity.

I can see that.

And yes, I agree that it is unthinkable that a lawyer's office would be raided for anything less than ironclad reasons. Everyone who signed off on the warrant was themselves a lawyer, and lawyers are very, very protective of their professional perogatives. To do this, they must be absolutely sure that a crime was committed, and probably were also sure that evidence of it could be obtained by the raid. They wouldn't have done it if they weren't sure to find something. probably someone in Cohen's office is already talking.

Am I reading you right that as long as a raid is used, it lends credence to the reason for it and thus therefore must be justified? You are not alone in that mindset.

Mueller and gang obviously were not satisfied with whatever Cohen had handed over prior to the raid.

 

[Elixir]

Mueller and gang obviously were not satisfied with whatever Cohen had handed over prior to the raid.

Yeah, and of course whatever was handed over to them by Cohen already was all they had, because for the last year, all they've been doing is sitting on their thumbs waiting for Cohen to cough up all the stuff they hadn't gotten from him yet. WITCH HUNT!!!

 

[Copernicus]

Jim,

Please remember, I was laying in bed last night listening on SiriusXM (Channel 118) when I heard this. I may have been half asleep. But I thought I heard this.

Later,
ElectEng

Thanks for bringing this into the discussion, ElectEngr. It has been confirmed by ABC: Trump-appointed US attorney recused from Michael Cohen investigation

Two sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News Berman was not involved in the decision to raid Cohen's office because of the recusal.

The recusal was approved by Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

 

[poster]

trying to make hands and tales of the situation.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "make heads or tails of."

That's how we say it in Russ.....Oh shit, I did it again! Ignore that!

I am an average US citizen

That's exactly what a Russian troll would say.

You got me. Can't get anything past this tribe.

 

[Sarpedon]

Am I reading you right that as long as a raid is used, it lends credence to the reason for it and thus therefore must be justified? You are not alone in that mindset.

No, I am saying that in order for such a thing to have happened, a certain chain of events must first have happened. If everything went right in the chain, then the thing happened as it should. If you can show that something went wrong in the chain, I will join you in feeling that the result is wrong. .

That is how real justice works: chains of responsibility and custody, with no single person having the power to do anything himself. This does not mean that things never go wrong; they go wrong all the time. However, the chain should be clear and well documented so as to determine what went wrong.

As it is, I have a certain amount of faith that the strong foundations of american justice cannot be washed away so easily. This is faith that is based on a certain amount of evidence: The United States has maintained itself with a high degree of integrity for a very long period of time, compared to other democracies. Until quite recently, we didn't have as high degree of corruption as a number of younger democracies, like say Italy, Greece, or Israel. It remains to be seen whether our justice system can correct our current corruption problem. I am hopeful

 

[poster]

Am I reading you right that as long as a raid is used, it lends credence to the reason for it and thus therefore must be justified? You are not alone in that mindset.

No, I am saying that in order for such a thing to have happened, a certain chain of events must first have happened. If everything went right in the chain, then the thing happened as it should. If you can show that something went wrong in the chain, I will join you in feeling that the result is wrong.

I don't know if the raid was justified, nor have I said anything about the result being wrong. What I did say last month in another thread is:

I agree he would as long as his legal defense lawyers become exhausted to the point of overplaying their hand, which I believe we're beginning to see with the Daniels incident. That was a bad move by Cohen, taking responsibility of the payoff money. And then the lawyering up that must be going on with the tabloid who buried the other sex story. Attorneys aren't cheap and they're only human.

Hiding behind lawyers is Trump's sword and they are beginning to abandon him, not to mention probably breaking him financially at this pace. My guess is this will play a huge part in any demise that might befall Trump.

But Pence? Pence is the leader of The Army Of The Dead. Very scary.

 

[Malintent]

I don't know if the raid was justified...

See there you go again doing what I called out a page ago... you DO seem to KNOW that Trump is the victim of a witch hunt, because he says so, but somehow you don't know if a raid that was justified by our legal system was actually justified.

That is your selective reasoning working against your ability to form rational opinions.

 

[Sarpedon]

Whether Pence is preferable to Trump is indeed questionable.

But,

I'd rather have a system that works and Pence as president than a system that doesn't work and Trump as president.

What I'd most like at this point is Trump so isolated that he's ineffectual and retreats to his resort for the rest of his term, and then the both of them voted out in a landslide in 2020.

 

[poster]

Whether Pence is preferable to Trump is indeed questionable.

But,

I'd rather have a system that works and Pence as president than a system that doesn't work and Trump as president.

What I'd most like at this point is Trump so isolated that he's ineffectual and retreats to his resort for the rest of his term, and then the both of them voted out in a landslide in 2020.

I couldn't agree more, however, it's going to take a much better candidate than the democratic party put up last time. I voted Stein last election and I'll do so again unless....And I'm not alone.

We need a democratic nominee that, among other things, genuinely hates war, abandons this neocon regime change doctrine, will reschedule marijuana, cut the defense budget and hold the intelligence community accountable. Obama was a failure in every one of those categories and HRC would have been just as bad, if not worse.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know if the raid was justified...

See there you go again doing what I called out a page ago... you DO seem to KNOW that Trump is the victim of a witch hunt, because he says so, but somehow you don't know if a raid that was justified by our legal system was actually justified.

That is your selective reasoning working against your ability to form rational opinions.

If agreeing with you and the rest of your tribe is rational, then no thanks!

 

[Elixir]

If agreeing with you and the rest of your tribe is rational, then no thanks!

If someone here contends that 2+2=4 and the "rest of your tribe" agrees, you are free to make a further fool of yourself and disagree to your heart's content. What a country!

 

[Angry Floof]

That's how we say it in Russ.....Oh shit, I did it again! Ignore that!

I am an average US citizen

That's exactly what a Russian troll would say.

You got me. Can't get anything past this tribe.

Oh, lighten up.

 

[Angry Floof]

Listening to Trump's comments on the Cohen raid. He says, "I've been trying to keep it down," regarding the Mueller investigation, which I suppose could be an admission of obstruction, but arguably could just mean he's trying to "keep it down" to mean keeping his own responses and commentary at a minimum (lol, OK). Anyway, Fox News' coverage of that briefing omitted that part.

 

[poster]

That's how we say it in Russ.....Oh shit, I did it again! Ignore that!

You got me. Can't get anything past this tribe.

Oh, lighten up.

And I thought I was the only one having a bit of fun.

That's the thing about comedy, sometimes you're just never sure.

Am I right, or am I right?

 

[Sarpedon]

So, any bets on how long it takes Cohen to flip? How many years in the slammer?

Trump was the one who wanted to run the country like a reality show.