ruby sparks
Contributor
Again? Really?
Yes, really.
Keep digging though. It's fun to watch.
Again? Really?
God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.
Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?
Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.
According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.
I don't know about 'nice.' For some people, it's absolutely necessary.It would be nice to have some kind of fairy tale ending
Hmmm.
Looks like the Greek borrowed from Enoch or Enoch from the Greek.
4 On the first uppermost circle I placed the stars, Kruno, and on the second Aphrodit, on the third Aris, on the fifth Zeus, on the sixth Ermis, on the seventh lesser the moon, and adorned it with the lesser stars.
Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, etc.
*
Okay, looks like the Greek predates the Enoch texts. Sorry guys, I know most of you know this stuff, but I never gave the apocryphal books much of a look until...now.
Proceed!
Hmmm.
Looks like the Greek borrowed from Enoch or Enoch from the Greek.
4 On the first uppermost circle I placed the stars, Kruno, and on the second Aphrodit, on the third Aris, on the fifth Zeus, on the sixth Ermis, on the seventh lesser the moon, and adorned it with the lesser stars.
Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, etc.
*
Okay, looks like the Greek predates the Enoch texts. Sorry guys, I know most of you know this stuff, but I never gave the apocryphal books much of a look until...now.
Proceed!
Yes it may seem it, taking from the "2 Enoch" a later text than the much older (usually the accepted) "1 Enoch" which is the version in the Ethiopian bible.
Even if it was written in Greek (3 Enoch written in Hebrew) Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, as you've highlighted above undoubtedly may cause some confusing pov's being that these were known as Greek gods. However, since the emphasis is on the heavens i.e. stars. The context is different,comparing to the modern names (Roman origin) for the planets:
Ermis = Mercury
Aphrodit = Venus
Aris = Mars
Zeus = Jupiter
Kruno = Saturn
Greek or Latin, makes no difference. Enoch uses those names to refer to actual beings. Not metaphorically, but to real entities.
God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.
Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?
Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.
God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.
Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?
Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.
Again? Really?
DBT - Alleged bible contradiction Example #2
"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Leove is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5
If love and jealousy were mutually exclusive antonyms then nobody in love would ever feel jealousy. But that's a paradox. How can there be any love triangle jealousy without love?
And so it is that when we look at the word "jealous" (in either the English or Hebrew or Greek) we see that it can be used in both negative and positive connotations.
1 Corinthians 13:4 is therefore able to warn of the unloving form of jealousy (in context) without any contradiction of Exodus 20:5 or 1John 4:8
Note also that when the bible errancy crowd skeptics disingenuously quote-mine the phrase "God is love" they want you to think that means a hippy rainbow God of butterflies and unicorns who is supposed to love everything and everyone everywhere at all times. But that's not biblical and it's not true.
Again? Really?
DBT - Alleged bible contradiction Example #2
"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Leove is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5
If love and jealousy were mutually exclusive antonyms then nobody in love would ever feel jealousy. But that's a paradox. How can there be any love triangle jealousy without love?
And so it is that when we look at the word "jealous" (in either the English or Hebrew or Greek) we see that it can be used in both negative and positive connotations.
1 Corinthians 13:4 is therefore able to warn of the unloving form of jealousy (in context) without any contradiction of Exodus 20:5 or 1John 4:8
Note also that when the bible errancy crowd skeptics disingenuously quote-mine the phrase "God is love" they want you to think that means a hippy rainbow God of butterflies and unicorns who is supposed to love everything and everyone everywhere at all times. But that's not biblical and it's not true.
You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;
1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19
2) Love does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13
3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18
4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18
5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to: Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8
You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;
1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19
2) Love does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13
3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18
4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18
5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to: Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8
All very good additional material, but not strictly necessary. 'Love is not jealous' is enough. Saying that people who claim to be in love experience jealousy is irrelevant. Love is not jealous.
God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.
Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?
Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.
I have no problem with punishment, so to speak, but let the punishment fit the crime.
Do you think Servetus deserved to die at the stake, in agony, and then get to spend E-fucking-Ternity in an actual, Dantean Hell, because of what he was able to believe or not believe?
Answer the question in honesty, please.
Would Joseph Mengele get to go to Heaven, if he only believed that Jesus Christ had died for his sins?
Answer the question in honesty, and with courage, and with integrity.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."
St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."
St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?
The heart is a muscular structure that pumps blood. It isn't possible to believe something in your heart, any more than you could believe it in your kidneys or your spleen. Believing is a characteristic of the conscious brain.
St Paul 1; Mengele 0.
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
That's just not true. The god that you depict is fully capable of stopping anyone from doing things that lead to perdition, yet he chooses not to. That is what "allow" means--choosing not to prevent something.
If we want people like Hitler or Stalin to suffer for their crimes, we have to get off our knees and do something.
Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.